Originally posted by The_Tempest
I do believe he's made it pretty clear that he's referring to the series of recent spats between him and you (and me).
That spat was weeks/months ago now. I've not even addressed the topic with him since then, even when he brought it up.
But then freaking out over a facepalm and calling me a crybaby?? Watever.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I believe the excerpt provided by JT from Cestus Deception portrays Kit as doing better than Obi-Wan against Ventress.
Perhaps. But this is still near the onset of the war. Later on, Kenobi appears to have improved dramatically and generally does far better in a duel than Fisto did.
Basically, Fisto is superior to AotC Kenobi but by RotS, or even the CW, Kenobi seems to be superior.
Originally posted by ares834
Considering Sidious effortlessly defeats Fisto and, at least from the novel's spoilers, doesn't stomp Maul in a similar fashion, I'm inclined to disagree.
We see Maul stomp Savage, who in turn has ragdolled Obi-Wan and Anakin twice in one episode, but can't stomp Obi-Wan during their fights. What's your point?
The novel claims that Maul has increased in strength over time as his training of Savage progresses. SIDIOUS66 made an extremely convincing argument that Sidious is very likely toying with the Zabraks anyway or, at least, Maul himself.
Originally posted by ares834
Perhaps. But this is still near the onset of the war. Later on, Kenobi appears to have improved dramatically and generally does far better in a duel than Fisto did.Basically, Fisto is superior to AotC Kenobi but by RotS, or even the CW, Kenobi seems to be superior.
I do not dispute the idea that Obi-Wan is the superior duelist, I dispute that he's in another league.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That spat was weeks/months ago now. I've not even addressed the topic with him since then, even when he brought it up.But then freaking out over a facepalm and calling me a crybaby?? Watever.
I do believe he's referring to the fact that you'll become increasingly aggressive and when shots are returned, you become defensive and admonish the response. The overall point being: if you want to keep things civil, keep them civil.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
We see Maul stomp Savage, who in turn has ragdolled Obi-Wan and Anakin twice in one episode, but can't stomp Obi-Wan during their fights. What's your point?
Using the force to knock people back does not, alone, mean they are the superior combatant.
As for my point, if Maul really is comparable to Fisto in sabers than Sidious should be able to blitz Maul just as he did Fisto. In fact, this whole argument is centered around the idea that if Kenobi and Fisto are comparable in sabers, Sidious should be able to blitz or at least effortlessly dismiss Kenobi.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The novel claims that Maul has increased in strength over time as his training of Savage progresses. SIDIOUS66 made an extremely convincing argument that Sidious is very likely toying with the Zabraks anyway or, at least, Maul himself.
I'm not convinced. Although, admittedly, I did not read through all the arguments.
Originally posted by ares834
Using the force to knock people back does not, alone, mean they are the superior combatant.As for my point, if Maul really is comparable to Fisto in sabers than Sidious should be able to blitz Maul just as he did Fisto. In fact, this whole argument is centered around the idea that if Kenobi and Fisto are comparable in sabers, Sidious should be able to blitz or at least effortlessly dismiss Kenobi.
Given Obi-Wan's specialty in lightsaber defense, he might not. When the Force becomes involved, based on the ROTS novel's portrayal of the negligible ease with which Dooku dismissed Obi-Wan, then yeah, he should.
ares834
I'm not convinced. Although, admittedly, I did not read through all the arguments.
Sidious apparently allows Maul to have final words with Savage after mortally injuring him and then disarms him fairly quickly when the battle resumes.
Or, to put it another way, using your template: let's say Obi-Wan was just really good enough to hold his own/defeat/whatever term you like Maul and Savage singlehandedly. Let's also assume that Sidious is incapable of blitzing/pwning/whatever term you like Maul and Savage under similar circumstances. Would that not suggest that Obi-Wan is on par with Sidious?
Spoiler:
We know that can't be, per Lucas and the script.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given Obi-Wan's specialty in lightsaber defense, he might not. When the Force becomes involved, based on the ROTS novel's portrayal of the negligible ease with which Dooku dismissed Obi-Wan, then yeah, he should.
I should have clarified here, in a "pure" saber duel I don't see Sidious dismissing Kenobi in such a fashion.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Or, to put it another way, using your template: let's say Obi-Wan was just really good enough to hold his own/defeat/whatever term you like Maul and Savage singlehandedly. Let's also assume that Sidious is incapable of blitzing/pwning/whatever term you like Maul and Savage under similar circumstances. Would that not suggest that Obi-Wan is on par with Sidious?Spoiler:[/B]
We know that can't be, per Lucas and the script.
Not at all. Just as I believe how Kenobi and Fisto match up against Grievous does not display the "full story" nor does how Sidious and Kenobi match up against the Grim Twins show us everything. We must take into consideration other feats, and in those Sidious is far and away superior.
Furthermore, we must also take into consideration the two fights against Maul and Savage. Kenobi was clearly struggling, outmatched, and (as you pointed out earlier) had the advantage of an enclosed space. Sidious does not have such an advantage and he also just outmatches them.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I do believe he's referring to the fact that you'll become increasingly aggressive and when shots are returned, you become defensive and admonish the response. The overall point being: if you want to keep things civil, keep them civil.
That's the thing I usually do.
Originally posted by The_TempestOr, to put it another way, using your template: let's say Obi-Wan was just really good enough to hold his own/defeat/whatever term you like Maul and Savage singlehandedly. Let's also assume that Sidious is incapable of blitzing/pwning/whatever term you like Maul and Savage under similar circumstances. Would that not suggest that Obi-Wan is on par with Sidious?
Spoiler:
We know that can't be, per Lucas and the script.
Let's just assume for a second that Kenobi could match or even challenge Sidious in a pure Saber duel.
That wouldn't contradict the idea at all that he can't in a one on one compete with the Emporer, because as you've rightly pointed out if Dooku can so easily force choke Kenobi, then Sidious could easily force flick him.
ares834
I should have clarified here, in a "pure" saber duel I don't see Sidious dismissing Kenobi in such a fashion.
Again, he might not, and for the very reason that his mastered form emphasizes lightsaber defense. I haven't commented on that either way.
ares834
Not at all. Just as I believe how Kenobi and Fisto match up against Grievous does not display the "full story" nor does how Sidious and Kenobi match up against the Grim Twins show us everything. We must take into consideration other feats, and in those Sidious is far and away superior.
I'm fine with examining other feats, but I'm at a loss as to why fights would be so unreliable... unless they're determined in part due to circumstance (like Obi-Wan vs. the Zabraks).
ares834
Furthermore, we must also take into consideration the two fights against Maul and Savage. Kenobi was clearly struggling, outmatched, and (as you pointed out earlier) had the advantage of an enclosed space. Sidious does not have such an advantage and he also just outmatches them.
Exactly: Sidious demonstrates blatant superiority to both of them combined whereas Obi-Wan's performance owes greatly to circumstance.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I do believe he's made it pretty clear that he's referring to the series of recent spats between him and you (and me).
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I do believe he's referring to the fact that you'll become increasingly aggressive and when shots are returned, you become defensive and admonish the response. The overall point being: if you want to keep things civil, keep them civil.
Yup. I guess I shouldn't expect him to get it though.
]
Originally posted by ares834
I'm not convinced. Although, admittedly, I did not read through all the arguments.
Have you read the entire passage of the fight? If so, notice how Sidious's initial attack was force pushing Maul and Savage across the room. Sidious then allows them to get back on their feet, while he just stands there waiting for them. He hesitates to attack, which is something he didn't do with Mace & company. As the fight went on, Sidious seemed to be toying with them, as they were the ones throwing most of the attacks. After Sidious kills Savage, he stops his attack and allows Maul to watch him die, which is something he also did not do with Mace & company. When he attacks Maul again, instead of attacking Maul with his full speed right away, Sidious instead gradually increases in speed, suggesting that he chose not to blitz him. From Sidious's hesitation & pauses to his taunts and torture of Maul, it seems obvious that Sidious was getting a pleasure out of it (something Maul also muses about) instead taking them seriously, and would thus have no need to go full throttle on them.
Originally posted by mnat801
Consider these factors:- mace windu vs dooku. result: mace winning after a long, hard fight.
factors?! It's just your imagination.
I can give You some facts:
-Dooku bested Mace in the past (yeah, probably before Mace created his Vaapad)
- Yoda still considered Dooku, as the strongest student as Order during his times has produced
- Dooku fight Mace during Battle of Boz Pity (i assume, that isn's a canon anymore), and Windu was unable to push him into defensive, like he did with Sidious
- Dooku defeat Sora Bulq and Tholme, while Windu has some problems with Sora only
- mace defeated sideous
In theory, yep. Anyway it's not that simple. Some facts from book:
- Windu fightning Sidious, and there is a tie, in sabers fight
- Windu using his shatterpoint, feels "Sidious'" fear, and defeat him.
- Sidious says, that it's not his fear, and attacks Mace with lightning
- Sidious pretends to be weak. A few seconds earlier Windu is pushed to his limit:
"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength leftto fight against his own blade.
[i]and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.
-obi wans duel against maul and opress being relatively short, cutting off an arm
-sideous vs maul and savage (lets see if he does any damage and if it was a longer duel)
Under these considerations, i'd say dooku and obi wan would have at least some chance of victory over sids
No, they haven't - Obi-Wan is non factor here. Sidious can defeat him even easier and faster, then Dooku did.
Dooku has some skills (very highly skills), but he hasn't enough raw power, to defeat Sidious in all out.
But still i think, that saber fight would go for a team.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai OMFG!!!!!! She kicked him? Holy ***king Schnikies!!!!!!! WOW!!!!!!! [/B]
A successful kick can lead you to victory! After Dooku's kick, Anakin's laid on the ground for few seconds.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Neph.. First your mad.Second I hate your 8's!
Right now that I got that out of the way.
Noted. I'm thinking of changing to Nepeta when I can 8e 8othered.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah you shouldn't just pick and choose what the Director said. He says he was ready and focused this time unlike the last time. He was just pointing out the reason for the inconsistency of the fights in the 2 episodes.He actually gave the reason why Obi-Wan was able is able to achieve such a feat.
You know what that reason was? That Obi-Wan is "A Very Skilled Swordsman!"
Yeah that's got one off PIS feat written all over it.
And he also mentions O8i-wan's mindset and that he 'wasn't going to lose'. Personally I think he might have 8een a little 8it enraged. He tries to straight up execute Opress after he kills Galia. I think it's pretty o8viously that just like you say that Ventress was 'enraged' 8y Dooku trying to kill her, so too was O8i-Wan spurred on 8y his fellow Jedi's death.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That would prove is that she's better at using Force Tk than Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Then why did you say that 'he's clearly above her now'?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fact is though in Sabers and the all out she was completely outmatched.
Which is why she knocked O8i-Wan out in 8 seconds in a lightsa8er fight.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The only reason she even got the opportunity to do that Force Choke was they CHOSE not to kill or maim her. They asked her to surrender.
At the start. They did not do so again. Other than that they did not 'chose' not to kill her. You really think they're going to do easy on an opponent who knocks one of them out in 8 seconds and dou8le Force Chokes them?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for the boost, it's quite obvious under normal circumstances neither she nor even Dooku can Force Choke Anakin even in a one on one.
Prove it. She's hit Anakin with Force Attacks before, as has Dooku. Just 8ecause they havn't choked him doesn't mean they can't.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hitting the knee was a great tactic. It's how Obi-Wan usually overpowers his opponents, since his fighting style is a very defensive one. It was completely fair game and there's nothing to suggest he couldn't even use the same tactic again.
What the shit? When has he repeatedly kicked opponents in the knee enough to make it 'how he usually overpowers his opponents?'
And that's 8eside the point. You seem to think that O8i-Wan is far superior to Opress yet he needed to cripple his knee to get around his guard. You act as if O8i-Wan dominated that fight, when the truth is that he was very close to dying.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well it was very wankable feat.But I'm really not sure what you guys saw there. Even taking Adi's death out of the equation, Kenobi was clearly matching Maul in Saber combat in their one on one. The same Maul who takes out Opress with the upmost of ease in the same episode.
So to say Kenobi's defeat of Opress was a one off fluke, or that Ventress is on his level (forget Fisto) is just baseless.
Yeah, in freaking training. You really think Opress was attacking his 8rother with everything he has? He's incredi8ly subservient to him, and it was just a training session. God, I hope this isn't another thing you're going to try and wank into the ground.
If Keno8i is that much 8etter that Savage then how come he couldn't get around his guard conventionally?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No wrong. I saw that interview with Filoni weeks ago, and have seen read countless other interviews with him regarding the issue. And he Never notes a "Special" mindset.He only notes the proper mindset of being ready for combat.
Yeah, yeah. Just ignore more evidence why don't you, while continually playing up Ventress' mighty RAGE and her opponents 'mercy'.
I'm sure Keno8i wasn't affected 8y his companions death at all. 🙄
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Asajj didn't even beat him. She had him on the floor. Yes that's obviously "besting" him, but it happens countless times in Star Wars.
She knocked him out. He was out of the fight. If Anakin hadn't of 8een there she would have won.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Did Opress have Dooku defated when he floored him?
No, 8ecause Dooku could still fight. The fight wasn't over and Dooku continued to engage him. It's completely different to Keno8i who was knocked out.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Did Dooku have Anakin defeated when he floored him?
In AotC? Yes.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No and No. Not to mention as I keep pointing out Kenobi and Anakin were clearly holding back on her.So the fact remains after Cestus Deception, Ventress has never defeated Obi-Wan, but he has defeated her, and opponents clearly superior to her.
Again I call 8ullshit on that. She was pushing them. It makes no sense for them to hold 8ack. Now they didn't kill her after she was disarmed, 8ut that doesn't mean they weren't fighting full out 8efore then.
You're wrong, and your 8lueberry bias smells awful. >:]
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because it's a stupid argument.Kenobi and Fisto are both superior to Grievous. Comparing who did better under completely different circumstances and environments is just an absurd attaempt to try and make an argument for Fisto = Kenobi.
Why is it a8surd? Try and explain this logically, I'm genuinely curious.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
To accept that but to just completely throw out Ventress's almost pathetic performance against Opress and Obi-Wan's far superior performance against him, just shows whose really being biased here.
I've argued that fight extensively already. I don't feel theres anything more to 8e said. I laugh at the allegations of 8ias though. I don't even watch the show, let alone care a8out one of the characters.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urmmm I think that's you whose waived off the only one on one fight they had where Kenobi was clearly superior, and instead want to cling to her flooring him one time, when he and Skywalker were clearly holding back and only trying to arrest her.
First, I wouldn't say that he was 'clearly' superior in that duel. It was fairly lengthy and she did disarm him at one point. Secondly, you've not argued 8ack against my assertion that that fight is meaningless in judging their current incarnations, hence why I'm not concerning myself with it. And thirdly, I call 8ullshit on the pair 'clearly' holding 8ack and again remind you that whatever you say, Asajj still 8eat Keno8i is mere seconds in that fight.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Do you ever open up your mind? Anyone with even a bit of an open mind would have accepted Kenobi is clearly > Ventress and Fisto after watching Revival.
That must explain why so many people argue against that point. Wait, if everyone 8ut you sees a thing one way, wouldn't that make you the one whose out of their mind?
Originally posted by NephthysAnd he also mentions O8i-wan's mindset and that he 'wasn't going to lose'. Personally I think he might have 8een a little 8it enraged. He tries to straight up execute Opress after he kills Galia. I think it's pretty o8viously that just like you say that Ventress was 'enraged' 8y Dooku trying to kill her, so too was O8i-Wan spurred on 8y his fellow Jedi's death.
Yeah he was determined to avenge Adi. But you don't think Maul at least is determined to as hell to defeat Obi-Wan??
In any case even before Adi's death he was stalemating Maul.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Then why did you say that 'he's clearly above her now'?
Because Maul is clearly above her, and he was clearly a match for Maul (in Saber combat) even before Adi died.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why she knocked O8i-Wan out in 8 seconds in a lightsa8er fight.
Who says she knocked him out? He was floored but there's no proof he was not conscious.
Originally posted by Nephthys
At the start. They did not do so again. Other than that they did not 'chose' not to kill her. You really think they're going to do easy on an opponent who knocks one of them out in 8 seconds and dou8le Force Chokes them?
Well they did take it easy on her. Twice they are shown not to kill or even cut her when they clearly could:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPg6jOl5t3o
At 1:50 and 2:35
Originally posted by Nephthys
Prove it. She's hit Anakin with Force Attacks before, as has Dooku. Just 8ecause they havn't choked him doesn't mean they can't.
Yeah and neither of them have managed to do anything to him with their force attacks except push him back.
In fact every fight Dooku has with Anakin his force attack seem to do less and less.
Originally posted by Nephthys
What the shit? When has he repeatedly kicked opponents in the knee enough to make it 'how he usually overpowers his opponents?'
He usually uses tactics to get the better of opponents. He's known on the Council as their most "cunning and tenacious Master."
Originally posted by Nephthys
And that's 8eside the point. You seem to think that O8i-Wan is far superior to Opress yet he needed to cripple his knee to get around his guard. You act as if O8i-Wan dominated that fight, when the truth is that he was very close to dying.
If he wasn't superior he wouldn't get so many kicks in. As shown enough kicks can prove deadly even to a physical beast like Opress.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, in freaking [b]training. You really think Opress was attacking his 8rother with everything he has? He's incredi8ly subservient to him, and it was just a training session. God, I hope this isn't another thing you're going to try and wank into the ground..[/B]
That's a pretty lame excuse. It's not like Maul was trying to kill Opress. He was just outclassed, simple as that.
Originally posted by Nephthys
If Keno8i is that much 8etter that Savage then how come he couldn't get around his guard conventionally?
He doesn't have the strength and power some of the other powerhouses have. He relies on defense and smarts. It's why his defeats take longer.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, yeah. Just ignore more evidence why don't you, while continually playing up Ventress' mighty RAGE and her opponents 'mercy'.I'm sure Keno8i wasn't affected 8y his companions death [b]at all.
🙄 [/B]
He was alreasy matching Maul before her death.
Originally posted by Nephthys
She knocked him out. He was out of the fight. If Anakin hadn't of 8een there she would have won.
That's speculation. And there's no proof he was knocked out. Anakin and Dooku have both got out of similar positions.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, 8ecause Dooku could still fight. The fight wasn't over and Dooku continued to engage him. It's completely different to Keno8i who was knocked out.
No proof at all he was knocked out and couldn't fight. He's taken much worse before and still carried on fighting. Kicks from Maul and Sith Anakin??
Originally posted by Nephthys
In AotC? Yes.
Nope in the CW movie. Anakin was floored and disarmed, lying down, yet still got back up and carried on fighting from that position before Dooku could kill him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
First, I wouldn't say that he was 'clearly' superior in that duel. It was fairly lengthy and she did disarm him at one point. Secondly, you've not argued 8ack against my assertion that that fight is meaningless in judging their current incarnations, hence why I'm not concerning myself with it.
If we're only sticking to current incarnations, then:
1. People should stop brining up Kenobi struggling with Griveous early in the CW.
2. It;s clear Kenobi is superior from the last 2 episodes.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That must explain why so many people argue against that point. Wait, if everyone 8ut you sees a thing one way, wouldn't that make you the one whose out of their mind?
That's not true. Loads of people don't agree with you. But they just come make a comment then go away. I'm the only one who keeps it up cause someone has to keep you guys in check and make sure Tempest doesn't start a "one view only, my view" dictatorship here!
Originally posted by DARTH POWERYeah thats true. But obi wan chopped the arm of savage, who had the help of maul, and if it wasnt for maul being there, he would have defeated savage.
This logic won't cut it.Adi Gallia was also training all her life and yet Savage beat the snot out of her.
He also beat Ventress pretty comfortably in the episode before.
Originally posted by ZettNo, I disagree with you, I dont think obi wan would be a non factor, since he knows how to deflect force lightning and is the best defensive lightsaber duelist in the order. You havnt really shown why he would be a non factor, you just stated it.
factors?! It's just your imagination.I can give You some facts:
-Dooku bested Mace in the past (yeah, probably before Mace created his Vaapad)
- Yoda still considered Dooku, as the strongest student as Order during his times has produced
- Dooku fight Mace during Battle of Boz Pity (i assume, that isn's a canon anymore), and Windu was unable to push him into defensive, like he did with Sidious
- Dooku defeat Sora Bulq and Tholme, while Windu has some problems with Sora only- mace defeated sideous
In theory, yep. Anyway it's not that simple. Some facts from book:
- Windu fightning Sidious, and there is a tie, in sabers fight
- Windu using his shatterpoint, feels "Sidious'" fear, and defeat him.
- Sidious says, that it's not his fear, and attacks Mace with lightning
- Sidious pretends to be weak. A few seconds earlier Windu is pushed to his limit:"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. [b]This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength leftto fight against his own blade.
[i]and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.-obi wans duel against maul and opress being relatively short, cutting off an arm
-sideous vs maul and savage (lets see if he does any damage and if it was a longer duel)Under these considerations, i'd say dooku and obi wan would have at least some chance of victory over sids
No, they haven't - Obi-Wan is non factor here. Sidious can defeat him even easier and faster, then Dooku did.
Dooku has some skills (very highly skills), but he hasn't enough raw power, to defeat Sidious in all out.
But still i think, that saber fight would go for a team.A successful kick can lead you to victory! After Dooku's kick, Anakin's laid on the ground for few seconds. [/B]
Its not my imagination, this has already been discussed on this forum.
So your telling me that dooku would not not lose to windu? most people think otherwise.
Originally posted by mnat801
No, I disagree with you, I dont think obi wan would be a non factor, since he knows how to deflect force lightning and is the best defensive lightsaber duelist in the order. You havnt really shown why he would be a non factor, you just stated it.
If Obi-Wan was almost useless against Dooku, why do You think, that he will be able to fight Sidious, who is in fact stronger, and more skilled with the force, hen Count Dooku? He can deflect lightning? Ok. Can he deflect a force TK? Ah, and Yoda said, that he's not strong enough to fight this Lord Sidious.
Originally posted by mnat801
Its not my imagination, this has already been discussed on this forum.So your telling me that dooku would not not lose to windu? most people think otherwise.
Yeah, it's still Your imagination. I don't care, what most people think. Windu has a lot of fanboys in these days. A faboys who probably think, that he is able to jump for planet, to planet, and also is able to deflect Death Star's laser with his Vaapad. But in fact, there is very possible, that Sidious let him win. Most sources described him, as equal to Yoda and Dooku in a sabers. And I have no doubt, that Dooku is more skillful in the terms of the force.