Originally posted by mnat801
Yeah thats true. But obi wan chopped the arm of savage, who had the help of maul, and if it wasnt for maul being there, he would have defeated savage.
I know. He did defeat Savage while fighting off Maul.
That doesn't mean anyone with experience can do that. Clearly Adi and Ventress couldn't.
Originally posted by Zett
If Obi-Wan was almost useless against Dooku, why do You think, that he will be able to fight Sidious, who is in fact stronger, and more skilled with the force, hen Count Dooku? He can deflect lightning? Ok. Can he deflect a force TK? Ah, and Yoda said, that he's not strong enough to fight this Lord Sidious.
Yes on his own he wouldn't stand a chance against Sidious. But this is Obi-Wan & Count Dooku.
Also I agree with mnat801 that in a pure saber fight Obi-Wan wouldn't be useless at all against Sidious.
Originally posted by Zett
Windu has a lot of fanboys in these days. A faboys who probably think, that he is able to jump for planet, to planet, and also is able to deflect Death Star's laser with his Vaapad. But in fact, there is very possible, that Sidious let him win.
No. Lucas has confirmed Mace legitimately overpowered Sidious.
Originally posted by Zett
Most sources described him, as equal to Yoda and Dooku in a sabers. And I have no doubt, that Dooku is more skillful in the terms of the force.
No source puts either Dooku or Mace as equals to Yoda in combat.
Dark Rendezvous however has Yoda thinking that Mace and Dooku are probably on par to each other in Saber prowess.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66For a while there, I did start to like you. You were doing so good, until you found out about Maul and Savage being defeated by Sidious.
Doing good as in not disagreeing with you? Yeah if you don't like people disagreeing with your views then why do you come on to a debate forum?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You then started to make up excuses for Maul being so easily defeated, claiming he was not giving it his all (despite Maul's musings suggesting otherwise).
Funny that's almost exactly what you and Tempest are doing with Obi-Wan's defeat over the same duo because you want to keep him down at Fisto's level.
Your also lowballing his defeat over Grievous in ROTS to put him down to Fisto's level.
It's always Double standards with you S66. The same way you can throw out all the insults and accusations you want, but one vague comment from me on fanboyism or one facepalm and you just go nuts.
Edit- Damn triple posted
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah he was determined to avenge Adi. But you don't think Maul at least is determined to as hell to defeat Obi-Wan??In any case even before Adi's death he was stalemating Maul.
Can I remind you of how a Jedi utilises their powers? Just like a Sith draws on rage and hatred to increase their powers, in such a way that you've described Asajj being mildly pissed off as achieving a special state, so too do Jedi utilise focus and determination to boost themselves. O8i-Wan was as you said determined to avenge Adi. He was struggling and fighting to the very best of his ability.
Maul on the other hand was unprepared to fight Keno8i. He says so when he see's the Jedi's ship. Just like Kenobi was last time they fought.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because Maul is clearly above her, and he was clearly a match for Maul (in Saber combat) even before Adi died.
Why is Maul clearly above her?
Anyway, ABC argument.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Who says she knocked him out? He was floored but there's no proof he was not conscious.
The video you link to below is of low quality. Here is a better one:
Look at 0.33. Kenobi is visible in the background, still crumpled on the floor unconscious.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well they did take it easy on her. Twice they are shown not to kill or even cut her when they clearly could:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPg6jOl5t3o
At 1:50 and 2:35
No, they simply did not attack her. That does not mean they were going easy on her, they were just wary of her in the first case. For good reason. Its no different from that bit in the Mace vs Sidious duel when Mace has his lightsaber a foot away from Sidious bare chest and doesn't attack him. That doesn't show mercy.
And in the latter case they'd won. She was disarmed. Jedi don't kill unarmed combatants. That doesn't show that they were going easy on her.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah and neither of them have managed to do anything to him with their force attacks except push him back.In fact every fight Dooku has with Anakin his force attack seem to do less and less.
And Force Choke him for an extended period in the case of Asajj. Dooku has also smacked him around with lightning and TK. I don't see how 'only' pushing him back is unimpressive.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He usually uses tactics to get the better of opponents. He's known on the Council as their most "cunning and tenacious Master."
Ok.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If he wasn't superior he wouldn't get so many kicks in. As shown enough kicks can prove deadly even to a physical beast like Opress.
If he was superior then he wouldn't have only gotten kicks in. He would have gotten his lightsaber in.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's a pretty lame excuse. It's not like Maul was trying to kill Opress. He was just outclassed, simple as that.
Opress was not coming at him seriously. This is especially big for a combatant like him who owes much of his strength to his rage.
The point is, Kenobi didn't treat him like that, and he's supposedly on par with Maul.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He doesn't have the strength and power some of the other powerhouses have. He relies on defense and smarts. It's why his defeats take longer.
Well he was able to hold back Opress and Maul at the same time, so he can't be that weak. He had a lot less trouble with Opress strength than Adi did and when he kicked him it actually did something, unlike when she did.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was alreasy matching Maul before her death.
So? I haven't said that Kenobi isn't Mauls equal. But imo it was her death that allowed him to take on both Maul and Opress and gave him the determination to drive them off.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's speculation. And there's no proof he was knocked out. Anakin and Dooku have both got out of similar positions.
No, it isn't speculation.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No proof at all he was knocked out and couldn't fight. He's taken much worse before and still carried on fighting. Kicks from Maul and Sith Anakin??
He was knocked out.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER.
Nope in the CW movie. Anakin was floored and disarmed, lying down, yet still got back up and carried on fighting from that position before Dooku could kill him
Then no, because Anakin would still fight. O8i-Wan was unconscious and could not continue fighting.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If we're only sticking to current incarnations, then:1. People should stop brining up Kenobi struggling with Griveous early in the CW.
2. It;s clear Kenobi is superior from the last 2 episodes.
That is another argument. I'm just pointing out that theres not really anything wrong with Tempest's line of logic.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's not true. Loads of people don't agree with you. But they just come make a comment then go away. I'm the only one who keeps it up cause someone has to keep you guys in check and make sure Tempest doesn't start a "one view only, my view" dictatorship here!
Pfft, like I'd let him. This is my town now!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes on his own he wouldn't stand a chance against Sidious. But this is Obi-Wan & Count Dooku.Also I agree with mnat801 that in a pure saber fight Obi-Wan wouldn't be useless at all against Sidious.
Originally posted by Zett
But still i think, that saber fight would go for a team.
I never said, that Kenobi would be useless in a saber fight. But in all out, i think, that even Dooku wouldn't be able to save him against Sidious' TK or smth like that.
[i]
No. Lucas has confirmed Mace legitimately overpowered Sidious.
Not at all:
This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something I added later.
So, finally he was pretending to lost his power. Mace won only a saber duel.
No source puts either Dooku or Mace as equals to Yoda in combat.
Just wookie, but You're right. I've also think, that Yoda is above them.
Dark Rendezvous however has Yoda thinking that Mace and Dooku are probably on par to each other in Saber prowess.
Yeah, it's true. But he's considering Dooku as better in... all out?
If he was superior then he wouldn't have only gotten kicks in. He would have gotten his lightsaber in.
If you put it that way, Dooku couldn't even kick Opress and on first attempt to block got disarmed. However, Kenobi was blocking his attacks even with one hand. Moreover, he was kicking Opress while fending off Maul and Maul received some decent kicks as well.
This argument that Kenobi is on level with Fisto becomes silly. Yes, Ventress and Fisto handled Grievous faster than Kenobi but in no way it means that they are on level with Kenobi or above. You guys fail to consider very important factor. Kenobi is master of Soresu, he demonstrates his superiority by being undefeatable, by showing inpenetrable defence and exelent avoidance. It will always take him longer to defeat someone.
When he fought against Ventress, he didn't even take her seriously, he defended against her with single hand in relaxed manner and after she disarmed him he dodged all her attacks and returned his lightsaber. That is demonstration of his superiority.
Before Adi's death Kenobi was giving ground like with Anakin moving away, blocking and dodging without striking back. When Maul tried to kick him, he dodged it as well, however, when Kenobi kicked him, Maul received that full on. Kenobi was superior because Maul couldn't do a thing to him.
When fighting against both brothers, there are other factors demonstrating his superiority. That was situation with all odds against him, his Soresu would be useless and he had to go for reckless tactics, which is very unlike him. He utilized his Ataru and martial arts skills instead, neither of which he uses in normal circumstances. And he wasn't only kicking both of them, his lightsaber attacks were surprisingly offensive and deadly. Both Maul and Opress were several times driven back by his attacks forced to go full defence and both nearly lost their limbs dodging at last instance.
Kenobi's ultimate weakness is that he is not skilled in Force use during combat and that's the only reason Maul handled him and later Dooku. And Anakin inherited this weakness from him, he did not Force handle anyone until he acquired suit. Also, both Kenobi and Anakin hold back, when fighting together, they never go for kill, avoid reckless moves and try to disarm, which gave both Ventress and Dooku much more opportunies to fight off. But ones Dooku took out Kenobi, Anakin held back less and when he succumbed to rage completely and finally went for kill, Dooku lost. But Kenobi could fight even enraged Anakin despite huge difference in potential. And when it turned to grappling, unlike Dooku he didn't get his arms chopped off. That's what his superiority is about, he can't win fast but he can become undefeatable, that's the nature of his style and personality. So you can't compare him to others judging by how fast he defeats his opponents.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah he was determined to avenge Adi.
In this case he didn't get enraged either and instead of trying to kill Opress he kicked him away in futile attempt to save her. And after he didn't get reckless and contunued to utilize Soresu and ran away with pirates. He actually desided to sacrfice himself to delay them, so pirats could escape. And sacrfice is a very noble Jedi thing and possibly that's what gave him power and determination to fight them.
I am sure that we both will agree that he is perfect Jedi firmly on lightside path. 🙂
Originally posted by Nephthys
Can I remind you of how a Jedi utilises their powers? Just like a Sith draws on rage and hatred to increase their powers, in such a way that you've described Asajj being mildly pissed off as achieving a special state, so too do Jedi utilise focus and determination to boost themselves. O8i-Wan was as you said determined to avenge Adi. He was struggling and fighting to the very best of his ability.
True he was fully focused and fighting to the best of his ability. I would expect nothing less for such a feat. But I'm not convinced he requires someone to die to do that.
Also that would likewise mean that Fisto was fighting to the very best of his ability against Grievous since Grievous had killed his former padawan. Which again would aid my point that just because Fisto seemed to struggle less against Grievous than Kenobi does not mean anything. Different environment, circumstances, background to a fight makes the comparison less and less reliable.
Also with Ventress's rage, that is much rarer Imo. It won't be every day that Dooku betrays her. Just like we can't expect Opress to force choke Dooku & Ventress in a rematch.
Whilst for Obi-Wan just to be properly focused is something much more achievable when such is required of him Imo.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Why is Maul clearly above her?Anyway, ABC argument.
Well they work to an extent. I see no reason to put Ventress on par with him after him outclassing Opress and Opress battering her. Although I do believe she would have done better against Opress with both her Sabers.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The video you link to below is of low quality. Here is a better one:Look at 0.33. Kenobi is visible in the background, still crumpled on the floor unconscious.
Well spotted. I never noticed that before.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, they simply did not attack her. That does not mean they were going easy on her, they were just wary of her in the first case. For good reason. Its no different from that bit in the Mace vs Sidious duel when Mace has his lightsaber a foot away from Sidious bare chest and doesn't attack him. That doesn't show mercy.
Fair enough. Still together they outmatched her in Sabers. Mace could have killed Sidious when he floored him. Same way it was Jedi restraint that allowed her to start Force choking the duo.
Whilst in Obi-Wan's case the Sith duo did not show that kind of restraint, and he successfully fought of and defeated their combined efforts/attacks.
It was a more impressive Saber feat than what the Enraged Ventress showed Imo. And also a more repeatable one Imho.
Originally posted by Nephthys
If he was superior then he wouldn't have only gotten kicks in. He would have gotten his lightsaber in.
Kicks are a standard way of doing that. It's how Mace overpowered Sidious. And Kenobi's form is a defensive one remember.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Opress was not coming at him seriously. This is especially big for a combatant like him who owes much of his strength to his rage.
Oh yes he was. Maul had seriously pissed him off calling him apprentice and it was Opress who initiated the duel. It wasn't some sparring session. It was a fight for Sith Domination. That's no child's play. Here full fight and conversation. Decent quality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc2SF6RuXUw&feature=relmfu
Originally posted by Nephthys
The point is, Kenobi didn't treat him like that, and he's supposedly on par with Maul.
Which is exactly why I'm against the Fisto did better than Kenobi against Grievous argument. It doesn't work like that when everyone has a different form of fighting.
Which also answers this:
Originally posted by Nephthys
That is another argument. I'm just pointing out that theres not really anything wrong with Tempest's line of logic.
Just because B has an easier time defeating C than A, does not in any way make B =/> A. Plus I've mentioned multiple times already in this thread the different circumstances and environment they both fought Grievous in.
It really means nothing. Now if Fisto defeats(or even matches) say Ventress at some point then there would be appropriate evidence to be comparing him to Kenobi. But as of now, there really is nothing to put Fisto in Kenobi's league Imho.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Pfft, like I'd let him. This is my town now!
Good. Gooooood.
Originally posted by Arhael
Please, don't admit to such things.
Kenobi at that point is accomplished Jedi Master in full control of his emotions.
No I didn't mean he was rage enhanced. Just that he was more focused and showing what he's really capable of. It's Dave Filoni who said he was more focused after Adi's death, which is why they keep bringing that up.
But he also gave the reason for his feat as him being a "very skilled swordsman." Something these guys keep conveniently missing out!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But he also gave the reason for his feat as him being a "very skilled swordsman." Something these guys keep conveniently missing out!
That Obi-Wan is a very skilled swordsman is not in question. What is in question is whether or not he's better than Maul, which Filoni never confirms or suggests. 😬
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That Obi-Wan is a very skilled swordsman is not in question. What is in question is whether or not he's better than Maul, which Filoni never confirms or suggests. 😬
Maul has shown nothing to suggest that he is superior or on even ground with Kenobi in raw sabers. At the end of the last season Kenobi was tired, had just been tortured and completely lost his focus.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
In Raw Sabers
Focused Kenobi>Maul.
Not Focused Kenobi<Maul
Super Focused Kenobi>Maul and SavageMaul has shown nothing to suggest that he is superior or on even ground with Kenobi in raw sabers. At the end of the last season Kenobi was tired, had just been tortured and completely lost his focus.
Only if fighting with Obi-Wan on "even ground" before Adi died doesn't count as a suggestion as to being capable of fighting Obi-Wan on "even ground." 👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That Obi-Wan is a very skilled swordsman is not in question. What is in question is whether or not he's better than Maul, which Filoni never confirms or suggests. 😬
I know he never says whose better. And I've probably already said in an all out, one on one, Maul likely takes Kenobi due to his far superior TK.
But Filoni did say in the Kenobi vs Maul and Opress fight, Kenobi won the fight.
And he says this was due to Obi-Wan being a very skilled swordsman and being very focused. So I'm guessing he was referring solely to the sword fight which ended with Obi-Wan cutting Opress up.
And considering during the sword fight it was Obi-Wan who kept landing kicks in on Maul and Opress, whilst neither of the duo landed even one successful blow on Obi-Wan(except Force TK hits), despite his disadvantage of being outnumbered, then I think it's pretty clear Obi-Wan was the best swordsman there.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if fighting with Obi-Wan on "even ground" before Adi died doesn't count as a suggestion as to being capable of fighting Obi-Wan on "even ground." 👆
I think by even ground he meant Maul didn't quite match him or prove he's his equal.
Even before Adi died, the one on one ended with Kenobi kicking Maul away. Whilst Maul did not land one successful hit on Kenobi (apart from with the force) in the whole episode.
I think they're finally showing why he's considered "The Master" of defense.