COUNT DOOKU & GENERAL KENOBI vs DARTH SIDEOUS

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? You do realize that Fisto started out with a single saber while Grievous started out with four, right? Or did you actually forget how Kit ended up with the second saber?

I'm surprised your saying this when you've posted the video yourself.

He never fought off all 4 of Grievous's blade. The fight starts with him getting into a saber lock then quickly hiding in the mist. He then tries to take Grievous from behind, fails but ends up in 1 more Saber lock.

Then Grievous gloats, attacks with JUST ONE SWORD and that's when he cuts it.

He never once actually fought off all 4 of Grievous's arms. Best he did was match 3 of his arms wielding 2 Lightsabers himself.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why do you keep assuming that having two sabers suddenly puts one on a whole different league?

See above. You don't really think Grievous wielding 1 Saber would be just as formidable as a Grievous wielding 4 do you??

And there is a reason Fisto went Jar Kai on him the second he got the chance.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And we actually need to know the entire circumstances of that fight before we can properly judge it. For all we know, Kenobi could have caught Savage off-guard. The fact that Savage is still a very unskilled opponent at that point, is not helping Kenobi's case here.

I'm not talking about the cutting of Opress's arm. I'm suggesting even challenging those 2 together is well out of Fisto's league.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Don't go that far. Kenobi once lost to a Grievous who was only using two sabers.

^ Here Grievous gets the better of Kenobi, and he only has two sabers.

That was actually quite early in the clone wars. And it seemed to me he hit Kenobi by surprise with one of his free arms. I doubt Kenobi would fall for that if GG was clearly wielding a lightsaber with that arm given how their other fights have gone.

And I wouldn't go as far as saying he actually lost that fight. He won via a force push, but who knows, if he didn't use the force he may have still evaded Grievous's killing strike.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
^Here Kenobi is having a lot of trouble with Grievous one on one, and is even disarmed of the electrostaff. This doesn't show the full fight, and I don't remember exactly how it played out, but it doesn't change the fact that Kenobi was clearly struggling.

You do realise in this fight he actually fought off and stalemated all 4 of Grievous's blades right? And that in an enclosed space as well. At one point he was backed up against the wall. He defeated him with a force push.

Again Fisto has never fought off all 4 of Grievous's blades. Best he could do was match 3 of his Blades by going Jar Kai on him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
^ And then here is Kenobi's most famous fight with Grievous. And this is Kenobi after having a lot more experience with Grievous.

Yes in a more open space he stomped against all 4 of GG's swords. Fisto has never done this. So he's clearly never defended against 20 strikes per second.

So looking at that feat of Kenobi's plus his challenging of Maul and Opress together, it's quite obvious to me that Kenobi is well above Fisto as a swordsman.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's irrelevent. Sidious has never been called the "very best of any particular form" either.

He's uses Juyo which is the deadliest form, hardest to master and automatically makes him a high level master of multiple other forms.

Also do you know of a better user of Juyo?

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Jar Kai doesn't offer an overall greater advantage against multiple foes than a single-bladed lightsaber.

The only advantage you gain by using two lightsabers is that you can defend from more angles than you normally would. What you give up is that you lose range of motion, you can't put as much force behind each strike because you're holding each blade with a one handed grip instead of gripping one blade with two hands, which also means that it would be easier for an opponent to knock a blade out of your hand with a powerful strike. As well, because you're holding each blade with one hand, you have to rely on using your forearms and wrists to generate momentum for each strike, compared to being able to use your entire body when swinging with one sword, which results in your attacks being slower and less controlled.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

However since the person wielding 2 Sabers can always switch back to 1 (or be forced to if he gets disarmed of 1 blade), I would overall call it a definite advantage as long as the wielder is adept in both single and dual lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
There is a reason why fighting with only one blade has historically been the preferred way of dueling- simply put, fighting with two swords is extremely impractical, regardless of how many people you're fighting.

Historically you mean on Earth, or by the Jedi? On Earth Swords are quite heavy so it would be pretty damn difficult to wield 2. Whilst wielding 2 Lightsabers especially with force enhanced strength would be much easier.

As for the Jedi, they probably frown upon carrying more than one weapon. Wouldn't be very Jedi like to be carrying like 4 weapons.

That's probably why it tends to be used more by Sith/Dark Jedi to wield more than one blade.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? You do realize that Fisto started out with a single saber while Grievous started out with four, right? Or did you actually forget how Kit ended up with the second saber?

Why do you keep assuming that having two sabers suddenly puts one on a whole different league?

And we actually need to know the entire circumstances of that fight before we can properly judge it. For all we know, Kenobi could have caught Savage off-guard. The fact that Savage is still a very unskilled opponent at that point, is not helping Kenobi's case here.

Don't go that far. Kenobi once lost to a Grievous who was only using two sabers. Let's actually compare some of Kenobi's fights against Grievous to Fisto's:

YouTube video

^ Here Grievous gets the better of Kenobi, and he only has two sabers.

the fight didnt finish there bud.

YouTube video

^Here Kenobi is having a lot of trouble with Grievous one on one, and is even disarmed of the electrostaff. This doesn't show the full fight, and I don't remember exactly how it played out, but it doesn't change the fact that Kenobi was clearly struggling.

how does one kick to the body summarise the fact that kenobi was clearly struggling?

YouTube video

^ And then here is Kenobi's most famous fight with Grievous. And this is Kenobi after having a lot more experience with Grievous.

And now let's compare those fights to Fisto's only one on one fight with Grievous....

YouTube video

^ At no point does Grievous overpower Fisto, nor does he put Fisto at a disadvantage, until the magnaguards intervene. Fisto also seems to be fighting Grievous with a much calmer demeanor than ROTS Kenobi did, despite Fisto having no experience in fighting someone like Grievous.

Now I'm not saying Fisto is a superior swordsman than Kenobi (although Obi Wan seems to think so). I'm saying they seem a lot closer than you believe.

That's irrelevent. Sidious has never been called the "very best of any particular form" either.

Those 20 strikes per second came from the very same Grievous whom Kit also outdueled.

I wouldn't.

Dropping your second weapon to use one doesn't mean using two is an advantage. That means using two sucks so you switch to using one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Historically you mean on Earth, or by the Jedi? On Earth Swords are quite heavy so it would be pretty damn difficult to wield 2. Whilst wielding 2 Lightsabers especially with force enhanced strength would be much easier.

Yeah, I'm with Tzeentch.: still not buying the idea that Jar'Kai is the end-all-be-all/form of last resort.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, basically.

Obi Wan is no match for Sidious's sheer speed (which comes from Sidious's power and command of the force). Three of the orders best were non-factors, why wouldn't Obi Wan be?

Ummm because he has a style specifically made to beat Sidious or anybody in sabers. Because via novelization.. General G has a faster saber strike count than Sids or anybody and that could penetrate Obi's defenses. The fact is, Kenobi has a chance against anybody in sabers thanks to his style.. especially if he goes saiyan like against The General. Sids isn't walking over him. All out.. sure.. in sabers no. Let's not forget.. you mention the blitz sids used against the jedi coming to arrest him. A bit of pis considering Mace beat him in sabers and yoda beat him in sabers. So clearly he's not fast enough to beat two jedi masters one v one.. yet you believe he could beat this one so easily. Nah, don't buy it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm because he has a style specifically made to beat Sidious or anybody in sabers. Because via novelization.. General G has a faster saber strike count than Sids or anybody and that could penetrate Obi's defenses.

😑 Where does it state that GG "has a faster saber strike count" than anyone else? It doesn't. That's just goofy. Besides that, Mace Windu had bladework describes as appearing as dozens (DOZENS, which is more than 20) of blades attacking from every direction. Sidious is nearly as fast, maybe equally so. Yoda was described as a blur of destruction.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Dropping your second weapon to use one doesn't mean using two is an advantage. That means using two sucks so you switch to using one.

No it means they can take advantage of the advantages Jar Kai offers- simultaneous attack and defense, or 2 simultaneous attacks. But if the disadvantages are getting to them they can always switch back to 1. But in practice no one using Jar Kai has chosen to put one away, so I'm guessing it must be more advantageous.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Doesn't really matter. Lightsabers aren't weightless, so wielding one lightsaber with one hand would still take more energy than wielding one with two hands, thus, someone wielding a single lightsaber will be able to strike faster and harder than someone with two.

So these guys should drop one of their sticks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQltqe2FFcE&feature=related

And you wouldn't get more speed from 2 hands, you can actually get more speed with both your hands seperate. You will get less strength behind the attacks though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, I'm with Tzeentch.: still not buying the idea that Jar'Kai is the end-all-be-all/form of last resort.

So you honestly think Ventress would have done just as well fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan together with a single saber.

When Obi-Wan is up for the fight of his life against Opress and Maul together why do you think he specifically chooses to use 2 Sabers?

Also why does Obi-Wan throw Anakin the second Saber in AOTC if it doesn't help??

At the very least it's a different fighting style that has it's advantages. If your still losing using it you can always switch back to 1.

Ventress can change between Dual Sabers, a Saber staff and a Single Saber. If she's well versed in all those fighting forms, that can only be advantageous, especially the fact that she can switch from one form to another.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
😑 Where does it state that GG "has a faster saber strike count" than anyone else? It doesn't. That's just goofy. Besides that, Mace Windu had bladework describes as appearing as dozens (DOZENS, which is more than 20) of blades attacking from every direction. Sidious is nearly as fast, maybe equally so. Yoda was described as a blur of destruction.

Just like what 20 strikes per second would look like. Can I see any narration that describes a faster count please.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just like what 20 strikes per second would look like. Can I see any narration that describes a faster count please.

😑 😑 😑

KT, the burden of proof is on you. You made a claim, now back it up. Provide a quote from canon material that states that GG's strikes are the fastest in the SW mythos. And BTW; dozens, being at minimum a 2x multiple of 12 and therefore at LEAST 24, is greater than 20.

POWER, for reasons already provided by myself and Tzeentch., I'm not buying it.

Sidious is apparently a master or proficient user of Jar'Kai and didn't utilize it against Mace and company; Dooku trained Komari Vosa and Asajj Ventress, two Jar'Kai wielders, and didn't make use of the technique against his multiple foes; I'm sure there are other examples.

There's no evidence to suggest it's an inherently superior method for dealing with multiple foes, let alone being an inherently superior form period.

The 20 strikes a second thing is o8vious 8ullshit.

Grievous doesn't even attack 20 times in the entire fight, certainly not before Keno8i gets one of his hands. 😬

At 8est its referring to when he was spinning his sa8ers around.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm because he has a style specifically made to beat Sidious or anybody in sabers.

Sidious' raw force power probably exceeds every force user of that time except for Yoda (not including Anakin because he had yet to tap even half of his full powers), and his command of that power is such that it enables him to inhance his speed to such a degree that he can quickly overcome any force user except Yoda and an amped Mace Windu. Obi Wan's style is irrelevent; he doesn't have it in him to contend with the speed of Sidious. His best bet would be to try and flee, or he gets cut down.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Because via novelization.. General G has a faster saber strike count than Sids or anybody and that could penetrate Obi's defenses.

Really? So how come Kit Fisto comfortably walked all over him, despite Fisto having no prior experience in fighting someone like him, whereas Fisto was quickly killed by Sidious right after Sidious had just downed two other masters?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The fact is, Kenobi has a chance against anybody in sabers thanks to his style.. especially if he goes saiyan like against The General. Sids isn't walking over him. All out.. sure.. in sabers no.

Sidious will walk all over Kenobi in sabers, force, and all-out.

It can be argued that Obi Wan is a superior duelist than Fisto (although it's still arguable), but to argue that he is so far above Fisto to where he can be a factor to Sidious, whereas Fisto plus two other gifted duelists are not, is kinda silly.

And you are not considering that style has nothing to do with matching Sidious in speed

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let's not forget.. you mention the blitz sids used against the jedi coming to arrest him. A bit of pis considering Mace beat him in sabers and yoda beat him in sabers. So clearly he's not fast enough to beat two jedi masters one v one.. yet you believe he could beat this one so easily.

Sorry, but you can't just dismiss feats that you don't like, especially when Sidious' speed feats have been pretty consistent (Plagueis novel, Dark Empire, and some of Maul's novel's). Lucas has also went out of his way to emphasize that Mace's B-Team were non-factors, stating that you have to be either Yoda, Windu, or Anakin, if Anakin didn't get injured (referring to full potential). And if we consider the EU's explanation, Windu only equaled Sidious in speed because he recieved a boost from Sidious's darkness.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Nah, don't buy it.

Well, ok.

There is absolutely nothing anywhere in the mythos- no piece of evidence, no logical argument that could be made, that could even imply that Fisto is on Kenobi's level of dueling prowess.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
POWER, for reasons already provided by myself and Tzeentch., I'm not buying it.

Actually your stances are different. Tzeentch claims Jar Kai is an overall disadvantage. Which would make Ventress and Starkiller 2 kind of retarded for sticking to it. Not to mention Obi-Wan purposefully disadvantaging himself when up again Opress and Maul together for the first time, and then trying to purposefully put AOTC Anakin at a disadvantage when he was up against Count Dooku.

It's pretty unlikely that all those people are just that retarded.

TFUII makes it perfectly clear Starkiller has chosen this form due to it's many advantages. Although it does also claim there are disadvantages (mainly strength in each hand).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious is apparently a master or proficient user of Jar'Kai and didn't utilize it against Mace and company;

But he does against Opress and Maul. No point in speculating on that alone. We don't know where he kept his second Saber, he may not have had time to get it. Or maybe he just felt he didn't need it. Who knows.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dooku trained Komari Vosa and Asajj Ventress, two Jar'Kai wielders, and didn't make use of the technique against his multiple foes;

Dooku actually does fence one handed. He prefers to keep the other hand free to Utilize force attacks. It's his choice. It's just against his own personal beliefs: "What was to become of elegance and gallantry if a duelist couldn't make do with one blade?" (LOE)

But again Obi-Wan seems to do better against Maul and Opress wielding 2 Sabers than Dooku did against Ventress and Opress wielding one (in the Saber portion of the fight at least, but perhaps in the all out as well).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm sure there are other examples.

There's no evidence to suggest it's an inherently superior method for dealing with multiple foes, let alone being an inherently superior form period.

So again you honestly think Ventress would perform just as well against both Anakin and Obi-Wan with just a single Saber?? Or Obi-Wan against Maul and Opress with One Saber? Honestly. It's obviously advantageous against multiple opponents at least.

And there is also plenty of evidence of it's advantages in general:

"Perhaps you would like to learn something before you die. The use of two blades, one to support the other, can be traced back thousands of years and was common to both of our species. The invention of lightsabers has done nothing to lessen the effectiveness of this strategy—as you are about to learn."
―Boc Aseca to Kyle Katarn(SW Dark Forces)

"This challenge you will not overcome. Your lightsaber is nothing against the power of the dark side."
"That's why I always carry two."
―An unknown Sith and Fortris Gall (SW Old Republic)

I've already mentioned it's advantages noted in TFUII.

Also Exar Kun was outmatched by his master but then he picked up a second Lightsaber and defeated him.

You think Grievous wielding 1 Saber is just as formidable as a Grievous wielding 2,3 or 4??

And Obi-Wan threw Anakin a second Saber to fight Dooku in AOTC. Why else would he do that if it wasn't going to give an advantage?? And according to the novel Padawan Skywalker's 2 Sabers actually gave Dooku significant trouble.

But despite all this, against a single opponent I still take the middle ground that it has it's advantages and disadvantages, but in being able to switch from 1 to 2, is where the real advantage is Imo.

But against multiple Lightsaber wielding opponents there's no doubt your going to last longer using more than 1 Lightsaber yourself.
That's obviously the reason Obi-Wan uses 2 when he's in for the fight of his life against Maul and Opress together.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
There is absolutely nothing anywhere in the mythos- no piece of evidence, no logical argument that could be made, that could even imply that Fisto is on Kenobi's level of dueling prowess.

👆

Thank You!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Really? So how come Kit Fisto comfortably walked all over him, despite Fisto having no prior experience in fighting someone like him, whereas Fisto was quickly killed by Sidious right after Sidious had just downed two other masters?

S66 I've already explained to you Fisto never fought all 4 of Grievous's swords. And he certainly didn't walk all over him. Best he did was match 3 of his Sabers using 2 himself. (You can argue Jar Kai gives no advantage like Tempest and Tzeentch are doing, but doesn't change the fact the best Fisto did was evenly match 3 of GG's blades.)

So stop repeating this argument.

Fisto's no match for Ventress, and he would certainly never ever be a match for Maul and Opress. Not even close.

Kenobi >>> Fisto as a Swordsman. Honestly it's not even comparable.

Sorry for triple post. Just read this comment late.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
👆

Thank You!

He's being sarcastic DP. One only has to read the Cestus Deception for such a quote. Yes, the same book where Fisto as well as Kenobi lose to Ventress. However, the book describes Fisto as nearly overwhelming her and coming across as doing better against her as compared to Kenobi.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
He's being sarcastic DP. One only has to read the Cestus Deception for such a quote. Yes, the same book where Fisto as well as Kenobi lose to Ventress. However, the book describes Fisto as nearly overwhelming her and coming across as doing better against her as compared to Kenobi.

I don't think he is being sarcastic. I've heard him say Obi-Wan's one of the best duelists in the PT.

And Obi-Wan already beat Ventress in the CW movie. Fisto hasn't. Kenobi has out performed a Grievous wielding 4 Sabers. Best Fisto has done is match 3 of his Sabers.

Now Obi-Wan's going to defeat Opress and even challenge Maul and Opress together clearly putting him above Ventress and well above Fisto.

Not even a comparison now Imho.

Oh and Tempest.. More evidence of the advantage of Dual Sabers- Kas'im was losing to Bane but then defeated in him in Sabers when he switched to Jar Kai. Bane then killed him with a the Force.

I've yet to see anyone provide examples of where someone was clearly worse off after switching to Jar Kai.

Kas'im's near victory owed entirely to the fact that Bane was simply unfamiliar with the technique. That is to say, the only advantage it afforded Kas'im was an element of surprise.

Arguing that Obi-Wan is substantially greater than Kit is really baseless. Kit hasn't been given as much exposure, but we can compare their respective performances against Grievous and Kit fared better than Obi-Wan against the general, without the benefit of Obi-Wan's expertise and experience on all things Grievous. This idea that all the main characters are somehow more powerful, more skilled, or whatnot than the tertiary characters simply by virtue of more exposure is bewildering. Kit might not have a surplus of feats or quotes with which to compare, but I think we have enough to reasonably conclude that if a gap exists between he and Obi-Wan, it's not a chasm.

POWER, weeks ago you wished to table all discussions on Sidious's smackdown of Maul and Savage because we haven't actually seen the fight yet. Since by all accounts (that I've heard), Obi-Wan's victory is context specific and we haven't seen it, I'm curious why you're openly discussing it.