COUNT DOOKU & GENERAL KENOBI vs DARTH SIDEOUS

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Kas'im's near victory owed entirely to the fact that Bane was simply unfamiliar with the technique. That is to say, the only advantage it afforded Kas'im was an element of surprise.

Which is why I've already said this:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

As for Jar Kai having it's advantages and disadvantages against a single opponent, well yes it's a different fighting style that may prove to be more advantageous against certain combat styles but has it's disadvantages as well.

However since the person wielding 2 Sabers can always switch back to 1 (or be forced to if he gets disarmed of 1 blade), I would overall call it a definite advantage as long as the wielder is adept in both single and dual lightsaber combat.

And this:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Ventress can change between Dual Sabers, a Saber staff and a Single Saber. If she's well versed in all those fighting forms, that can only be advantageous, especially the fact that she can switch from one form to another.

Plus there's Exar Kun defeating his master after picking up a second Saber. Plus there's loads of other hints like Obi-Wan throwing Anakin a second Saber in AOTC presumably to help him.

And then there's Ventress taking on both Anakin and Obi-Wan using Jar Kai on multiple occasions even though she's hardly a match for each one individually. So the advantage of lasting longer against multiple opponents at least is obviously there.

And like I said nobody's provided examples, evidence pointing the other way.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Arguing that Obi-Wan is substantially greater than Kit is really baseless. Kit hasn't been given as much exposure, but we can compare their respective performances against Grievous and Kit fared better than Obi-Wan against the general, without the benefit of Obi-Wan's expertise and experience on all things Grievous. This idea that all the main characters are somehow more powerful, more skilled, or whatnot than the tertiary characters simply by virtue of more exposure is bewildering. Kit might not have a surplus of feats or quotes with which to compare, but I think we have enough to reasonably conclude that if a gap exists between he and Obi-Wan, it's not a chasm.

See above discussion. I think I've provided enough evidence of Kenobi being substantially above Fisto and having performed much better against Grievous.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
POWER, weeks ago you wished to table all discussions on Sidious's smackdown of Maul and Savage because we haven't actually seen the fight yet. Since by all accounts (that I've heard), Obi-Wan's victory is context specific and we haven't seen it, I'm curious why you're openly discussing it.

I don't think I initiated those discussions, but we were basing it on the preview we saw of the novel. (And so far the novel seems to be bang on correct.)

Ok I'll save the Obi-Wan vs Maul and Opress until we've seen it. I just don't think Fisto is in any sort of league to initiate a duel like that in any circumstance. Ventress? Possibly.

Oh and I have seen the first 2 seconds of the fight in the promo 😛

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWdQEVVPgL0

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious' raw force power probably exceeds every force user of that time except for Yoda (not including Anakin because he had yet to tap even half of his full powers), and his command of that power is such that it enables him to inhance his speed to such a degree that he can quickly overcome any force user except Yoda and an amped Mace Windu. Obi Wan's style is irrelevent; he doesn't have it in him to contend with the speed of Sidious. His best bet would be to try and flee, or he gets cut down.

Really? So how come Kit Fisto comfortably walked all over him, despite Fisto having no prior experience in fighting someone like him, whereas Fisto was quickly killed by Sidious right after Sidious had just downed two other masters?

Sidious will walk all over Kenobi in sabers, force, and all-out.

It can be argued that Obi Wan is a superior duelist than Fisto (although it's still arguable), but to argue that he is so far above Fisto to where he can be a factor to Sidious, whereas Fisto plus two other gifted duelists are not, is kinda silly.

And you are not considering that style has nothing to do with matching Sidious in speed

Sorry, but you can't just dismiss feats that you don't like, especially when Sidious' speed feats have been pretty consistent (Plagueis novel, Dark Empire, and some of Maul's novel's). Lucas has also went out of his way to emphasize that Mace's B-Team were non-factors, stating that you have to be either Yoda, Windu, or Anakin, if Anakin didn't get injured (referring to full potential). And if we consider the EU's explanation, Windu only equaled Sidious in speed because he recieved a boost from Sidious's darkness.

Well, ok.

How are you even comparing Fisto to Kenobi... Kenobi has consistently outperformed Kenobi over and over again. There is really not much to compare imo I don't see fisto beating maul, ventress, or anakin.

Nobody is questioning Sids has speed... but remember BEFORE Windu was tapping into Vaaped.. he was still blocking Sids strikes and defending himself. Kenobi's defense >= to Windu's. So how can Windu deal with Sids, as well as yoda, but the master of the most defensive form can't? you jest.. surely you jest. Point is, Sids WOULDN'T walk all over Kenobi in a dual. All out, no disagreement there.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which is why I've already said this:

And this:

Plus there's Exar Kun defeating his master after picking up a second Saber. Plus there's loads of other hints like Obi-Wan throwing Anakin a second Saber in AOTC presumably to help him.

And then there's Ventress taking on both Anakin and Obi-Wan using Jar Kai on multiple occasions even though she's hardly a match for each one individually. So the advantage of lasting longer against multiple opponents at least is obviously there.

And like I said nobody's provided examples, evidence pointing the other way.

See above discussion. I think I've provided enough evidence of Kenobi being substantially above Fisto and having performed much better against Grievous.

I don't think I initiated those discussions, but we were basing it on the preview we saw of the novel. (And so far the novel seems to be bang on correct.)

Ok I'll save the Obi-Wan vs Maul and Opress until we've seen it. I just don't think Fisto is in any sort of league to initiate a duel like that in any circumstance. Ventress? Possibly.

Oh and I have seen the first 2 seconds of the fight in the promo 😛

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWdQEVVPgL0

Which novel... I guess i'm behind or something. BTW how wa the plaguis novel?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
S66 I've already explained to you Fisto never fought all 4 of Grievous's swords. And he certainly didn't walk all over him. Best he did was match 3 of his Sabers using 2 himself. (You can argue Jar Kai gives no advantage like Tempest and Tzeentch are doing, but doesn't change the fact the best Fisto did was evenly match 3 of GG's blades.)

Evenly match Grievous? Did we watch the same fight? Fisto was all over Grievous, forcing him back the entire fight. Compare that to ROTS Obi Wan being forced back during his duel with Grievous, waiting for an opening to disarm him of his sabers one at a time.

Also, stop with your "Fisto needed two sabers to match Grievous's three sabers." That's almost like me saying Obi Wan needed a powerful force push to match Grievous two sabers. Grievous didn't kindly hand Fisto a second saber in order to make it more fair, Fisto took it from him in the middle of a duel. If you want to try to lowball Fisto, I can point out the times that Kenobi was put on his ass by Grievous, either through a kick or from being ragdolled with one hand, whereas Grievous was not fast enough to do the same to Fisto, and if he was, I'm pretty sure he would have to at least gain an advantage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi >>> Fisto as a Swordsman. Honestly it's not even comparable.

Just stop, DP. Sidious can blitz masters before they can react. Obi Wan is not lasting long against him at all. You can argue about Obi Wan being better than Kit all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Sidious's speed is just too much for Kenobi to handle.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
There is absolutely nothing anywhere in the mythos- no piece of evidence, no logical argument that could be made, that could even imply that Fisto is on Kenobi's level of dueling prowess.

As Tempest said, if we compare their duels with Grievous, then it's pretty safe to conclude that they are at least pretty close. Kit did just as well against Grievous as ROTS Obi Wan did (though I'd argue he did a little better), despite having no experience with someone like Grievous. Also, as JT brought out, there is supposedly a quote in Cestus Deception about Kit being more skilled than Obi Wan. Though I believe the quote came from Kenobi's musings on their sparring matches with eachother. IDK, I haven't read it.

There is, however, absolutely no logical argument that can be made for Obi Wan being so far ahead of Fist to where he can provide a challenge to Sidious, whereas Fisto + two other swordsmasters could not. Even if Obi Wan is an overall better duelist than Kit, there is still not much of a speed difference between the two.

If Sidious blitzed Maul or even Savage I could see why some would believe Kenobi would be blitzed by Sidious... But he didn't.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
There is absolutely nothing anywhere in the mythos- no piece of evidence, no logical argument that could be made, that could even imply that Fisto is on Kenobi's level of dueling prowess.

👆

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which novel... I guess i'm behind or something. BTW how wa the plaguis novel?

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy. It's not actually out yet, but some of us have seen previews of some of the passages. It's based on a 4 episode arc of clone wars season 5.

The dialogue and action from the Maul vs Opress fight was pretty much the same as it is in the episode.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Evenly match Grievous? Did we watch the same fight? Fisto was all over Grievous, forcing him back the entire fight. Compare that to ROTS Obi Wan being forced back during his duel with Grievous, waiting for an opening to disarm him of his sabers one at a time.

Yeah except Kenobi was out performing all 4 of Grievous's arms. Fisto was matching 3. There was nothing to suggest Fisto was winning that saber duel. He was Only shown to be superior with the aid of a force push.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, stop with your "Fisto needed two sabers to match Grievous's three sabers." That's almost like me saying Obi Wan needed a powerful force push to match Grievous two sabers.

Not really. Especially not since Fisto also resorted to a force push. If you don't think effectively wielding a 2nd Saber will help in the slightest against an opponent whose effectively wielding 3 or 4 Sabers, then I really don't know what else to say except that would mean Grievous with 1 Saber = Grievous with 4 Sabers???

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Grievous didn't kindly hand Fisto a second saber in order to make it more fair, Fisto took it from him in the middle of a duel. If you want to try to lowball Fisto, I can point out the times that Kenobi was put on his ass by Grievous, either through a kick or from being ragdolled with one hand, whereas Grievous was not fast enough to do the same to Fisto, and if he was, I'm pretty sure he would have to at least gain an advantage.

Lol it's not lowballing Fisto. He was the one hiding in the mist when Grievous was wielding 4 Sabers. I don't remember Kenobi hiding from Grievous and attempting to strike him from behind.

Fact is he never fought a 4 Saber wiedling Grievous, and he only managed to chop off one arm due to serious CIS on Grievous's part. He was chatting away, gloating, and only attacked with the one arm.

He's certainly never defended against 20 strikes per second, which also shows Kenobi's superior speed which you keep denying.

When Fisto is called the Master of any particularly lethal Saber form then compare him and Kneobi.

Not to mention Kenobi's feats of defeating Anakin, Ventress and (I'll wait 10 days before I include Opress) are way beyond anything we've seen from Fisto.

In fact we flat out know that Fisto < Ventress.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just stop, DP. Sidious can blitz masters before they can react. Obi Wan is not lasting long against him at all. You can argue about Obi Wan being better than Kit all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Sidious's speed is just too much for Kenobi to handle.

What are you talking about? I've not even argued Kenobi vs Sidious yet. That's kind of pointless while people are comparing Kenobi to Fisto.

But remember this thread isn't Kenobi vs Sidious. It's Kenobi and Dooku vs Sidious.

And Kurupt Thanosi makes a good point, that if Windu before being fully submerged into Vapaad can defend against Sidious's strikes, then why should we assume The Master of Soresu could not? Especially while fighting alongside The Master of Makashi.

Plus Kenobi's feats of defeating Anakin, Ventress and (I'll wait 10 days before I include Opress) are way beyond anything we've seen from Fisto.

In fact we flat out know that Fisto < Ventress.

Originally posted by ares834
If Sidious blitzed Maul or even Savage I could see why some would believe Kenobi would be blitzed by Sidious... But he didn't.

So because he didn't do it to Maul and Savage, means that he can't do it to Obi Wan, despite the fact that he has done it to three swordsmasters (at least one of whom is on Kenobi's level of speed)? Are we to ignore Palpatine's speed feat in ROTS just because he did not utilize his top speed during his duel with Maul and Savage?

Give me evidents that Obi Wan is fast enough to provide even some what of a challenge to someone who can blitz three swordsmasters in seconds, and I will accept that.

Also, if Kenobi is so far ahead of Kit in speed, then why was he floored by Grievous on a couple of occasions? Whether or not Kenobi has a better style of defense than Fisto, he still lacks the speed to provide a challenge to Palpatine, which is basically what is being claimed in this thread, something which no one has provided any evidents for.

Sids... who is better at defending against strikes Mace or Kenobi or are they about even? I personally believe Kenobi is EVER good at defense if not better than Mace. ANd I believe mace has even said as much. So if Mace can defend against Sids BEFORE getting immersed in Vapaad... Why couldn't Kenobi long enough for ANOTHER Jedi master to attack and beat Sids? Kenobi is built for a fight like this...

@ Ares, I just noticed that I'm calling you out on something that you didn't even make a claim about. My bad.

I'm still curious on why you think Obi Wan could avoid being blitzed by Sidious though.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Sids... who is better at defending against strikes Mace or Kenobi or are they about even? I personally believe Kenobi is EVER good at defense if not better than Mace. ANd I believe mace has even said as much. So if Mace can defend against Sids BEFORE getting immersed in Vapaad... Why couldn't Kenobi long enough for ANOTHER Jedi master to attack and beat Sids? Kenobi is built for a fight like this...

Kenobi's lightsaber form is a better form for defense than Mace's lightsaber form, but that does not mean Kenobi can react to Sidious's speed better than Mace can, especially when Mace is faster than Kenobi. Sidious blitzed two masters before before they could REACT, which barely gave Mace and Kit enough time to react themselves, and Mace enough time to get vapaad in effect. Before Mace was fully submerged in vapaad, he was on the verge of being overpowered.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

He's certainly never defended against 20 strikes per second, which also shows Kenobi's superior speed which you keep denying.

Neither did Kenobi according to the highest form of canon. Like Nepthys reported:

Originally posted by Nephthys
The 20 strikes a second thing is o8vious 8ullshit.

Grievous doesn't even attack 20 times in the entire fight, certainly not before Keno8i gets one of his hands. 😬

At 8est its referring to when he was spinning his sa8ers around.

I'm hesitant to use that as evidence. If we apply such a strict standard to what we see in the films, all of Mace's EU feats are tossed aside because they're contradicted by the incredibly amateurish performance he gave while fighting Sidious.

That isn't a direct contradiction though. The number of strikes is fact. It directly contradicts what happened. How impressive the fight was is subjective and can be explained by the aging actors.

As someone who works in the industry, I can tell you that films are basically a form of theatre, it's all interpretation and its all a performance. The actors and the sets etc all do a good job of presenting an image but it is still up to the audeince to take form it what they will. The book has every right to its interpretation of 20 strieks a second, and it really oputs int perspective how great obi's sroesus is.,

Not a direct contradiction? Mace shows literally nothing of the superhuman physique, skill, and power he displays in the EU (or even in AOTC, what with his Force-powered leap from Dooku's balcony to the arena floor) in what is easily the most important fight of his life. He fights like a middle aged black man; taken literally, that's exactly the case because nothing on Mace's side was altered in post-production for the duel (even Sidious, who is almost equally underwhelming here, uses the Force no less than 3 times during their fight).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not a direct contradiction? Mace shows literally nothing of the superhuman physique, skill, and power he displays in the EU (or even in AOTC, what with his Force-powered leap from Dooku's balcony to the arena floor) in what is easily the most important fight of his life. He fights like a middle aged black man; taken literally, that's exactly the case because nothing on Mace's side was altered in post-production for the duel (even Sidious, who is almost equally underwhelming here, uses the Force no less than 3 times during their fight).

As I recall Leland Chee has spoken directly about this and said that the capabilities of the Jedi in the movies isn't a contradiction to the rest of the EU.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I recall Leland Chee has spoken directly about this and said that the capabilities of the Jedi in the movies isn't a contradiction to the rest of the EU.

Exactly. There are limitations and creative differences across disparate mediums. The ROTS novel was line-edited by George and we can assume from his close involvement with both television series that he clearly didn't mean for people to think Mace was nothing other than a 55-year-old black guy swinging a glowstick around bizarrely, so I don't see why we should be so strict.

This is the same guy whose script for ROTJ called for a "vast rebel fleet" that stretched "as far as the eye could see" yet, on screen, that description only applies if the audience in question has no idea what the word "vast" means and suffers from a severe case of cataracts.

To be fair, I don't think george intended for all jedis to be able to withstand the effects of old age. Yoda was an exception more than the rule. A human Jedi of Mace Windu's age usually wouldn;t expect to be any faster than he was on screen, I don't think. And he wasn't that bad when it came to swordplay bro. he was trained by Nick Gillard personally and the scene was only given the greenlight until it met his approval.

Of course they wanted an actual stuntman to do it but SLJ was extremely difficult and a real diva on stage, and a bit of a nuisance really and none of the other cast even talk to him any more. he demanded different color lightsaber, that he beat sidious in theuir fight and that she get to do his own stunts or he would not appear in the film. And because george had built him up into the second in lind the the jedi council grandmaster he didn;t think he'd ba able to kill him off off screen so he had to accept htme.

So while mace windu didn;t look like a real master swordsman he still didn;t look too bad. but spped wise, i dont think he was ever itnendted to be that fats, or fatse tthan anyone that age.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Exactly. There are limitations and creative differences across disparate mediums.

Which is why we have rules about contradictions 8etween them. :I

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The ROTS novel was line-edited by George and we can assume from his close involvement with both television series that he clearly didn't mean for people to think Mace was nothing other than a 55-year-old black guy swinging a glowstick around bizarrely, so I don't see why we should be so strict.

We shouldn't.

In that case. :::;]

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is the same guy whose script for ROTJ called for a "vast rebel fleet" that stretched "as far as the eye could see" yet, on screen, that description only applies if the audience in question has no idea what the word "vast" means and suffers from a severe case of cataracts.

Well in that case the movie takes precedence, because that's a direct contradiction, just like the number of strikes Grievous did pretty directly contradicts that he was overloading Kenobi's defenses with 20 strikes a second.

Rules Lawyer AWAAAAAY!!!!!!!!