ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin

NO limites fallacy much Lucien.. Just because someone AT THAT Moment is overwhelming someone DOESN'T mean they were a given to win. How many mediums do we see people getting overwhelmed at first or for most of the fight.. only to wait for an opening and win the fight. This happens in real life.. ufc... street fight... any place you can think. Just because somebody is overwhelming somebody at first... doesn't mean the outcome is certain. That's a no limits fallacy at its finest. The fact is, Kenobi style is EXACTLY hwo the fight played out.. to wait for an opening and use anakin's various weakness's against him. and that is EXACTLY what he did and WOULD DO each and everytime. IMO it would work more than fail.

Literature is likewise all about the reader's imagination and interpretation. I am entitled to mine and it is imo that Anakin was out of cardio by the time he made that mistake.

Actually Anakin was only close to overpowering him because Obi-Wan was trapped, which was also, due to the terrain. There will always be terrain. Making good use of it is what makes you a smart fighter. Without forcing Obi into a corner, Anakin does not have it in him to overpower his defences. Grievous neededf to got to 23 strikes a second to overpwoer him, anythigh less includign 20 and obi-wan could weather the storm which is extremely impressive.

Originally posted by iheartchael
Literature is likewise all about the reader's imagination and interpretation. I am entitled to mine and it is imo that Anakin was out of cardio by the time he made that mistake.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
NO limites fallacy much Lucien.. Just because someone AT THAT Moment is overwhelming someone DOESN'T mean they were a given to win. How many mediums do we see people getting overwhelmed at first or for most of the fight.. only to wait for an opening and win the fight. This happens in real life.. ufc... street fight... any place you can think. Just because somebody is overwhelming somebody at first... doesn't mean the outcome is certain. That's a no limits fallacy at its finest. The fact is, Kenobi style is EXACTLY hwo the fight played out.. to wait for an opening and use anakin's various weakness's against him. and that is EXACTLY what he did and WOULD DO each and everytime. IMO it would work more than fail.

So in a battle in which there is no levelled terrain for Obi-Wan to take advantage of, and there is no PIS for Anakin to bow down to, Anakin will manage his victory. The victory he would have seen had the above factors not been involved.

And Good. Effing. God. I'm not going to repeat myself again. Read the damn chapter in the book. It is more canon than you.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I saw this line before I saw any of the others. There's no point going any further on this with you.

You know why I brought up the whole "Obi-Wan better have a lava river handy" thing? Because Obi-Wan won. In that duel, Anakin's ability to grow stronger and push Obi-Wan back ultimately didn't matter. His overconfidence and the terrain threw a monkey wrench in to what otherwise would have been a solid victory.

So in a battle in which there is no levelled terrain for Obi-Wan to take advantage of, and there is no PIS for Anakin to bow down to, Anakin [b]will manage his victory. The victory he would have seen had the above factors not been involved.

And Good. Effing. God. I'm not going to repeat myself again. Read the damn chapter in the book. It is more canon than you. [/B]

Which part of the novel is contradicting what I'm saying? You're not understanding something... It DOESN'T matter about the Terrain... what matters is Kenobi's style of geared to finding ANY opening that he could and using that to his advantage. It could a simple rock in the groud... a tree... a door... ANYTHING. Lave or THAT specific terrain wasn't the only way for Kenobi to take advantage of Anakin's brash.. arrogant nature was it? Are you really arguing THAT specific terrain is the only way for Kenobi to take advantage of Anakin and wait for an opening. If so, there is really no point in taking this further. The fight played out JUST as Kenobi thought. He was confident in beating Anakin in the movie and in the novel before the fight. He knew Anakin would provide and opening and THAT IS EXACTLY what happened, and would happen more often than not.

ROTS Anakin > Count Dooku > Obi-Wan Kenobi

Although Obi-Wan may last longer against Anakin than Dooku did due to the nature of his style (pure defensive) and having personally taught Anakin.

Sith Anakin had just has his mind twisted according to Yoda. So it was the best time to defeat him, before he fully embraced the dark side without conflict and became even more powerful.

But that's not to take away from Obi-Wan's feat. He did really well to survive as long as he could against Sith Anakin.

And Kurupt Thanosi "Zone" Anakin is too powerful. That was ROTS Jedi Anakin at his peak with a moment of "pristine clarity". Obi-Wan never fought an Anakin with that much clarity. Against Zone Anakin, Yoda would be a much fairer fight. Im serious!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which part of the novel is contradicting what I'm saying? You're not understanding something... It DOESN'T matter about the Terrain... what matters is Kenobi's style of geared to finding ANY opening that he could and using that to his advantage. It could a simple rock in the groud... a tree... a door... ANYTHING. Lave or THAT specific terrain wasn't the only way for Kenobi to take advantage of Anakin's brash.. arrogant nature was it? Are you really arguing THAT specific terrain is the only way for Kenobi to take advantage of Anakin and wait for an opening. If so, there is really no point in taking this further. The fight played out JUST as Kenobi thought. He was confident in beating Anakin in the movie and in the novel before the fight. He knew Anakin would provide and opening and THAT IS EXACTLY what happened, and would happen more often than not.

In these vs. fights, we don't count those. Level terrain, no advantage given to either side, Pre-Suit Vader wears Obi-Wan's defences down and kills him.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Go read the RotS novelization.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which part of the novelization make it clear that Anakin would win if not for the Terrain? Can I see a quote of this please. Anakin and Kenobi for MOST of the fight were fighting on level ground and anakin WASN'T overwhelming or owning Kenobi. They were fighting on even terms. So that is CLEARLY not true. Further, Kenobi using Anakin's own weakness's against him isn't foul play or not to be factored. Anakin's boldness and arrogance WOULD ALWAYS leave such openings. All the woulda coulda shoulda.. doesn't change the fact that Kenobi DECISIVELY beat Anakin, and no amount of excuses will ever change that.

Originally posted by mnat801
I have, and its pretty much all about anakin.

Zone. Not close really.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Anakin provided an opening by attempting to leap over his head from a decline angle. It wasn't a sabre technique, it was a retarded overconfident technique. Stop making Obi-Wan out to be some sort of defensive wizard of godly swordplay. Anakin was kicking his ass in sabres and the Force the entire fight. One moment of arrogant f*ck-up screwed Anakin over. That f*ck-up was provided by the terrain, and the plot. Remove both those factors and Anakin's got himself a cool win. But even with an uneven or hostile environment, Obi-wan will still require Plot Induced Stupidity, and a moment of poor judgement.

In these vs. fights, we don't count those. Level terrain, no advantage given to either side, Pre-Suit Vader wears Obi-Wan's defences down and kills him.

Still Obi-Wan did really well to last that long against him. The vast majority of Jedi would have got cut down by Sith Anakin pretty fast. Heck even Dooku probably wouldn't have lasted that long.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Still Obi-Wan did really well to last that long against him. The vast majority of Jedi would have got cut down by Sith Anakin pretty fast. Heck even Dooku probably wouldn't have lasted that long.

Dooku would have schooled Vader at this point.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Anakin provided an opening by attempting to leap over his head from a decline angle. It wasn't a sabre technique, it was a retarded overconfident technique. Stop making Obi-Wan out to be some sort of defensive wizard of godly swordplay. Anakin was kicking his ass in sabres and the Force the entire fight. One moment of arrogant f*ck-up screwed Anakin over. That f*ck-up was provided by the terrain, and the plot. Remove both those factors and Anakin's got himself a cool win. But even with an uneven or hostile environment, Obi-wan will still require Plot Induced Stupidity, and a moment of poor judgement.

In these vs. fights, we don't count those. Level terrain, no advantage given to either side, Pre-Suit Vader wears Obi-Wan's defences down and kills him.

Actually the fights on here AREN'T always on level terrain.. That is totally false. Further, you didn't address my point, and I know exactly why.. but I'll try again. Are you saying THAT specific terrain was the ONLY way Kenobi could and would take advantage of Anakin's arrogance and brash fighting style? Are you claiming that? Fact is, just as I said, Kenobi can take advantage of said anakin's weakness EACH and EVERY time because THAT IS IN CHARACTER FOR ANAKIN TO ACT THAT WAY. These people fight in character and that is exactly in character for Anakin to do stupid shit NO MATTER the terrain. that is a point you just can't get around and is canon to skywalker and repeated over and over again via narration and depiction in ALL mediums.

You say I keep making Kenobi out to be some defensive wizard.. ummm DUH!! That is EXACTLY what he is.. AGAIN canon to the mythos of the character. You like to argue against a character clear and consistent portrayal I see, but that isn't how these argument works. Kenobi IS just that and he's proven so over and over again.

BTW.. Don't think I didn't notice you not putting up the narration that states the ONLY reason Kenobi won was because of that specific terrain.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and that is exactly in character for Anakin to do stupid shit NO MATTER the terrain.

Not really Thanosi. He was an arrogant dumb ass in his fight with Obi-Wan, but don't think that's normal for him..

CW series has shown Anakin to be tactically very smart.. Defeating military geniuses like Admiral Trench and completely turning the tide of a losing battle many a time.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Dooku would have schooled Vader at this point.

Dunno. It's arguable. It's not like Confused Sith Anakin was any less powerful than CW Anakin who consistently stalemates the Count. In fact he was probably more powerful. Dooku's force attacks would likely extend the fight for some time, but I doubt he would win with that alone (based on their previous CW fights).

But then yes, Sith Anakin was very rash, arrogant, conflicted and impulsive leading him to be a bit of a dumb ass in that fight.

Still the Count would likely have to find a way to take advantage of that the way Obi-Wan did.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really Thanosi. He was an arrogant dumb ass in his fight with Obi-Wan, but don't think that's normal for him..

CW series has shown Anakin to be tactically very smart.. Defeating military geniuses like Admiral Trench and completely turning the tide of a losing battle many a time.

Dunno. It's arguable. It's not like Confused Sith Anakin was any less powerful than CW Anakin who consistently stalemates the Count. In fact he was probably more powerful. Dooku's force attacks would likely extend the fight for some time, but I doubt he would win with that alone (based on their previous CW fights).

But then yes, Sith Anakin was very rash, arrogant, conflicted and impulsive leading him to be a bit of a dumb ass in that fight.

Still the Count would likely have to find a way to take advantage of that the way Obi-Wan did.

The HIGHEST form of Canon shows Anakin doing this OVER and OVER again. It was a KEY character flaw that was talked about AD NAUSEA in the movies and novels. I can't believe you're saying NOT REALLY. That is totally disingenuous for you to say not really. That is EXACTLY correct and he made brash arrogant moves ALL the times in the HIGHEST form of canon.. Should we go over them or will you concede that is EXACTLY spot on?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Still Obi-Wan did really well to last that long against him. The vast majority of Jedi would have got cut down by Sith Anakin pretty fast. Heck even Dooku probably wouldn't have lasted that long.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually the fights on here AREN'T always on level terrain.. That is totally false. Further, you didn't address my point, and I know exactly why.. but I'll try again. Are you saying THAT specific terrain was the ONLY way Kenobi could and would take advantage of Anakin's arrogance and brash fighting style? Are you claiming that? Fact is, just as I said, Kenobi can take advantage of said anakin's weakness EACH and EVERY time because THAT IS IN CHARACTER FOR ANAKIN TO ACT THAT WAY. These people fight in character and that is exactly in character for Anakin to do stupid shit NO MATTER the terrain. that is a point you just can't get around and is canon to skywalker and repeated over and over again via narration and depiction in ALL mediums.

You say I keep making Kenobi out to be some defensive wizard.. ummm DUH!! That is EXACTLY what he is.. AGAIN canon to the mythos of the character. You like to argue against a character clear and consistent portrayal I see, but that isn't how these argument works. Kenobi IS just that and he's proven so over and over again.

BTW.. Don't think I didn't notice you not putting up the narration that states the ONLY reason Kenobi won was because of that specific terrain.

WE DO NOT USE PIS. Plot has no bearing on these threads. "You underestimate my power while I float over a river a lava next to a sloped embankment" is not used here. Even if we set this duel on Mustafar, there's no guarantee that things are going to happen like they did. And because PIS is removed, the terrain becomes incidental. The lava river and embankment mean nothing without PIS--which we don't use. I don't know if you understand that yet, so I'll repeat it once more:

WE DO NOT USE PIS

The novel clearly states, in no uncertain terms, that Vader is stronger, faster, and more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan Kenobi himself is the catalyst for this narration--those are HIS thoughts, HIS opinions. Experience allowed him a stretch of survival, and PIS allowed him a victory. Once PIS is gone--AS IT IS HERE--he's down to merely surviving until he's overwhelmed. Which he will be.

Stop getting hung up on my glib quip on the first page.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The HIGHEST form of Canon shows Anakin doing this OVER and OVER again. It was a KEY character flaw that was talked about AD NAUSEA in the movies and novels. I can't believe you're saying NOT REALLY. That is totally disingenuous for you to say not really. That is EXACTLY correct and he made brash arrogant moves ALL the times in the HIGHEST form of canon.. Should we go over them or will you concede that is EXACTLY spot on?

Urm yes you will have to go over them for me, because nothing's coming to mind except him rushing into Dooku in AOTC. But there's a reason he was still a padawan then.

Tell me if he's so tactically dumb how does he outsmart a military genius like Admiral Trench? And how was he the only one who worked out how to defeat the Zillo Beast? The examples from CW are endless tbh.

He was brash and arrogant, but usually in a smart and sort of selfless way. Constantly turning the tide of losing battles, where it was actually Obi-Wan telling him to be a good boy and accept the battle is lost.

Also films being higher canon doesn't nullify Anakin's CW feats unless there's a direct contradiction. Nothing happens in the CW series that Lucas doesn't want. He's the one whose created it. And there's hours and hours more canon material there than we get from the movies.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I doubt that. Dooku would be better suited to f*ck with Anakin's head than Obi-Wan. Dun Moch FTW.

Ah yes Dun Moch! Dooku is one smart, powerful and charismatic old timer!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I doubt that. Dooku would be better suited to f*ck with Anakin's head than Obi-Wan. Dun Moch FTW. But yeah, Obi-Wan did a good job lasting that long. But without convenient landscaping and PIS to help him out, he wouldn't have survived.

Jesus... I'm going to try this one more time, and make it as clear as I can. If you don't get it after this, there's no getting through to you.

WE [b]DO NOT USE PIS. Plot has no bearing on these threads. "You underestimate my power while I float over a river a lava next to a sloped embankment" is not used here. Even if we set this duel on Mustafar, there's no guarantee that things are going to happen like they did. And because PIS is removed, the terrain becomes incidental. The lava river and embankment mean nothing without PIS--which we don't use. I don't know if you understand that yet, so I'll repeat it once more:

WE DO NOT USE PIS

The novel clearly states, in no uncertain terms, that Vader is stronger, faster, and more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan Kenobi himself is the catalyst for this narration--those are HIS thoughts, HIS opinions. Experience allowed him a stretch of survival, and PIS allowed him a victory. Once PIS is gone--AS IT IS HERE--he's down to merely surviving until he's overwhelmed. Which he will be.

Stop getting hung up on my glib quip on the first page. [/B]

Jesus :facepalm: Let's go over this again... Do you know what IN CHARACTER means... All characters.. HERE and the comic book forums or wherever.. per forum rules fight IN CHARACTER. Now, are some of anakin's flaws... Arrogance, Brashness, fearing losing people he loved, insecure? The answer is UNQUESTIONABLY yes. I can't for the life of me understand why you keep on shouting PIS and bringing up the terrain when that isn't a point i'm arguing. I'm saying NO MATTER THE TERRAIN.. DOESN'T ELIMINATE ANAKIN'S PERPENSITY to be arrogant and brash. Does it? Now once you answer these questions.. we'll continue.. or are you gong to keep arguing a point I'm not making?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm yes you will have to go over them for me, because nothing's coming to mind except him rushing into Dooku in AOTC. But there's a reason he was still a padawan then.

Tell me if he's so tactically dumb how does he outsmart a military genius like Admiral Trench? And how was he the only one who worked out how to defeat the Zillo Beast? The examples from CW are endless tbh.

He was brash and arrogant, but usually in a smart and sort of selfless way. Constantly turning the tide of losing battles, where it was actually Obi-Wan telling him to be a good boy and accept the battle is lost.

Also films being higher canon doesn't nullify Anakin's CW feats unless there's a direct contradiction. Nothing happens in the CW series that Lucas doesn't want. He's the one whose created it. And there's hours and hours more canon material there than we get from the movies.

Ah yes Dun Moch! Dooku is one smart, powerful and charismatic old timer!

You just conceded my point so there is no real argument here... Anakin WAS brash.. was arrogant and did make stupid moves.. PERIOD. Going to the darkside didn't remove those traits they would naturally increase them. So no matter the terrain.. sith anakin would always lose to kenobi for that very reason. If he made clear errors in judgement during a HIGHER FORM of canon it certainly contradicts the cw series. If not totally, it certainly doesn't eliminate the clear flaws he showed in the movie, in fact, they make the feats of him not doing so in the series come down a little.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You just conceded my point so there is no real argument here... Anakin WAS brash.. was arrogant and did make stupid moves.. PERIOD.

I'm not seeing where it was normal for Anakin to make stupid moves.

Unorthodox moves? Yes. But stupid?

This is the guy who defeated military genius Admiral Trench. He's also the guy who quickly worked out a way to put the Zillo Beast down.