ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin · Star Wars Versus Forum

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Jesus :facepalm: Let's go over this again... Do you know what IN CHARACTER means... All characters.. HERE and the comic book forums or wherever.. per forum rules fight IN CHARACTER. Now, are some of anakin's flaws... Arrogance, Brashness, fearing losing people he loved, insecure? The answer is UNQUESTIONABLY yes. I can't for the life of me understand why you keep on shouting PIS and bringing up the terrain when that isn't a point i'm arguing. I'm saying NO MATTER THE TERRAIN.. DOESN'T ELIMINATE ANAKIN'S PERPENSITY to be arrogant and brash. Does it? Now once you answer these questions.. we'll continue.. or are you gong to keep arguing a point I'm not making?

And I'm saying without a convenient place for Anakin to try to jump over Obi-Wan's head because he told him he had the high ground--then there won't be any defeat of Anakin at Obi-Wan's hand. Obi-Wan will be worn down and killed as he would have been had that specific act of goading on a high embankment on the planet of Mustafar not taken place. Unless that very specific act takes place--I.E. unless everything happens again exactly as it did in the movie--then Anakin will win.

Do you comprehend that yet? We are not recreating the movie's fight scene with all the character's motivation and script. It's pure feats. PIS is not a feat, and Obi-Wan can't rely on it here. Get that through your skull. If you want to say Anakin will be brash and stupid without PIS, then you're going to have find an example of him doing that--something lacking in the RotS novel's description of the duel. A duel that is seen from Kenobi's perspective. Kenobi himself is admitting that Anakin is more powerful, stronger, and becoming more so as the fight drags on. By Obi-Wan's own admission, he was losing. You take away the script and plot necessities (I.E. "I have the high ground"/lava river) and you get a scenario that Obi-Wan cannot escape from.

Do you get it yet?

EDIT: You've managed to not get it for three pages now. I'm just going to assume ahead of time that you never will.

DARTH POWER Senior Member

What Lucien is trying to say is Sith Anakin was without doubt the more powerful swordsman. And if they fought say on a Tatooine desert like where Qui-Gon and Maul first fought, then there's no doubt Anakin would destroy him.

I also don't buy this theory that it's normal for Anakin to make dumb stupid moves. That stupid jump he made was a result of his mind having just been twisted by the dark side, as Yoda would put it.

The_Tempest Senior Member

Anakin may not be an exceptionally wise or patient individual, but he is very probably a genius mechanically (C-3PO, anyone?) and tactically (for reasons DARTH POWER provided).

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What Lucien is trying to say is Sith Anakin was without doubt the more powerful swordsman. And if they fought say on a Tatooine desert like where Qui-Gon and Maul first fought, then there's no doubt Anakin would destroy him.
I also don't buy this theory that it's normal for Anakin to make dumb stupid moves. That stupid jump he made was a result of his mind having just been twisted by the dark side, as Yoda would put it.

well if sith anakin was such a good swordsman as you and lucien is saying, he should have taken out obi wan with ease. well theres no proof that anakin would beat kenobi on flat ground.

DARTH POWER Senior Member

Originally posted by mnat801
well if sith anakin was such a good swordsman as you and lucien is saying, he should have taken out obi wan with ease.

What? No. Nobody's saying Obi-Wan's easy fodder. He definitely is not easy to take in Sabers. He's a very skilled sword master. But I'm afraid Anakin was more powerful.

Originally posted by mnat801
well theres no proof that anakin would beat kenobi on flat ground.

The proof is that according to the script Anakin kept "Forcing" Obi-Wan back. And according to the script and the novel Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on while Obi-Wan gets tired.

And tbh we can see both these things in their fight.

Oh and there's definitely no proof Obi-Wan could take ROTS Anakin on flat ground.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? No. Nobody's saying Obi-Wan's easy fodder. He definitely is not easy to take in Sabers. He's a very skilled sword master. But I'm afraid Anakin was more powerful.
The proof is that according to the script Anakin kept "Forcing" Obi-Wan back. And according to the script and the novel Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on while Obi-Wan gets tired.
And tbh we can see both these things in their fight.
Oh and there's definitely no proof Obi-Wan could take ROTS Anakin on flat ground.

The better proof is that Obi wan chopped his limbs off in the end. Thus, obi wan is the better duelist, whether anakin is more powerful or not.

DARTH POWER Senior Member

Originally posted by mnat801
The better proof is that Obi wan chopped his limbs off in the end. Thus, obi wan is the better duelist, whether anakin is more powerful or not.

That would have been nice proof IF he actually did that WHILE DUELING HIM.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Originally posted by mnat801
The better proof is that Obi wan chopped his limbs off in the end. Thus, obi wan is the better duelist, whether anakin is more powerful or not.

Yeah, sorry, that wasn't during the duel. Again, it's like if in the middle of boxing, we stopped, and I tried to flip over you, so you punched me in the balls. I could be a better puncher, blocker, dodger, have bigger muscles, better form... but if I decide to break character and throw caution to the win because the plot of the movie being made about us requires me to, it's not apart of the duel. That is the quintessential definition of plot induced stupidity, and we do not use that here.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That would have been nice proof IF he actually did that WHILE DUELING HIM.

Well vader went to attack kenobi, and kenobi swiftly finished him off.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah, sorry, that wasn't during the duel. Again, it's like if in the middle of boxing, we stopped, and I tried to flip over you, so you punched me in the balls. I could be a better puncher, blocker, dodger, have bigger muscles, better form... but if I decide to break character and throw caution to the win because the plot of the movie being made about us requires me to, it's not apart of the duel. That is the quintessential definition of plot induced stupidity, and we do not use that here.

Yes it was during the duel! Just because they stopped clashing swords doent mean that the duel doesnt stopp there. In a boxing match, the fighters dont punch non stop. they circle each other, having a liitle breather along the way, and look for an opening. just like obi wan found the opening in anakins jump. Whether or not its PIS, its what happened. And please dont deny the fact that kenobi was the better man in the end, because i bet if it was kenobi who got his limbs cut off, im pretty sure you'd argue that anakin was the better man.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Originally posted by mnat801
Yes it was during the duel! Just because they stopped clashing swords doent mean that the duel doesnt stopp there. In a boxing match, the fighters dont punch non stop. they circle each other, having a liitle breather along the way, and look for an opening. just like obi wan found the opening in anakins jump. Whether or not its PIS, its what happened. And please dont deny the fact that kenobi was the better man in the end, because i bet if it was kenobi who got his limbs cut off, im pretty sure you'd argue that anakin was the better man.

Anakin is the better duelist no matter who wins or loses. That's the point of this, who is the better duelist, not who won. Don't you get that yet? The novelization of RotS puts clear as day that Anakin is a superior duelist, and a more powerful Force-user.

What matters in this forum, is feats. PIS isn't a feat; I can't seem to get that through to you. It's a very specific variable that is placed in on behalf of the plot, and that is something that we do not, and can not use in these threads. Plot variables and character motivations are prone to opinion and subjectivity, and thus, a useless thread. I think that's what you're not understanding. We literally can not use that stuff here. Do you get it yet?

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Anakin is the better duelist no matter who wins or loses. That's the point of this, who is the better duelist, not who won. Don't you get that yet? The novelization of RotS puts clear as day that Anakin is a superior duelist, and a more powerful Force-user.
What matters [b]in this forum, is feats. PIS isn't a feat; I can't seem to get that through to you. It's a very specific variable that is placed in on behalf of the plot, and that is something that we do not, and can not use in these threads. Plot variables and character motivations are prone to opinion and subjectivity, and thus, a useless thread. I think that's what you're not understanding. We literally can not use that stuff here. Do you get it yet? [/B]

It doent matter what is in this forum! how can you say hes better if he lost! go watch the film, its more canon than any book.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

I give up, there's no getting through your skull.

NTJack0 Ranger

Originally posted by mnat801
It doent matter what is in this forum! how can you say hes better if he lost! go watch the film, its more canon than any book.

You don't get it at all, do you? Obi-Wan took advantage of Anakins bad decision, it's as simple as that.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by NTJack0
You don't get it at all, do you? Obi-Wan took advantage of Anakins bad decision, it's as simple as that.

No, you dont get it. What you just stated is the exact reason why obi wan was the better performer. And the whole reason why this argument started was because someone denied that obi wan defeated vader. Look, just because anakin was the more aggressive dueler doesnt mean that he was the better swordsman. he was at least equally good.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Since you refuse to acknowledge canon or read the novel, there's no point talking to you.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Since you refuse to acknowledge canon or read the novel, there's no point talking to you.

I do, however it seems you do not acknowledge the film. If there was no film, you probably would win this argument. But no matter what the novel says, the film is more reliable. e.g. adi killed by opress, not by grevious

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

The film lacks narrative, and for that the novel is accounted for. The duel in the novel ends the exact same way, the difference is that we get a personal account from Obi-Wan's perspective. The novels allow us insight in to what the characters feel at the very moment, something we can't see in films. For obvious reasons, Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke etc. aren't going to be narrating to the camera, but the book is able to. It's through this narration that we know who the better duelist really is. In the case of Phantom Menace, we know it's Maul. For RotS, we know about "Zonakin", we know how he felt, we can know Dooku's thoughts. And it's through the novel, that, no matter who won the fight, we learn that Obi-Wan is an inferior duelist and Force-user compared to Darth Vader.

This is not my opinion, nor is it yours. This is canonical fact. You don't get to cherry pick what fits just because you have a preconceived notion.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Lucas personally read, edited and approved the RotS novel. I consider it more or less G-canon. T-canon at worst.

mnat801 Senior Member

i agree with the fact that novels provide more narrative, but anakin never got the better of obi wan, and if he WAS the better duelist, he would have broken obi wans defence and striked him down. but he didnt, therefore he is not superior to obi wan as a duelist. The film is enough proof for this! only until vader can break kenobis defence like dooku did in AOTC can you prove to me that kenobi is the inferior duelist.

And im pretty sure im being rational here.