Originally posted by Lord LucienKenobi won the duel due to his ability to adapt to his surroundings, his ability to survive Anakin's offensive encore, and his ability to expose his opponents weakness - basically the essence of his fighting style Soresu - which was implemented successfully.
Yeah, what Intrepid said. Kenobi may have "won the duel", certainly. But it wasn't due to superior lightsaber skills or Force powers. PIS isn't some bullshit we bring up for no reason, it's an integral part of many stories and narratives. In this versus forum, we don't use PIS as an attributable skill or power to a character.
Lucas himself says "Anakin was more powerful, but Kenobi was more experienced" as his reason for Obi Wan winning on Mustafar.
Yeah, he said that ironically. As in, [irony]"you're establishing one character's superiority over enough using only a technicality and PIS, so we might as well do it to all those other situations"[/irony]. Vader isn't a superior fighter to Sidious because he blind-sided him, Kenobi isn't a superior duelist to Maul because he jumped over him, Obi-Wan isn't a superior duelist to Anakin because he leapt from the low ground. Get it? None of those factors are a part of "superior duelist" or "superior Force user". Not in a dead even setting, not with all environmental variables removed. That's why I said, way back when:
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Obi had better have a lava river and a slightly high embankment handy to goad Vader in to jumping over. The only reason he survived his duel with Vader were those two things. In a flat-planed, sterile environment, Vader would defeat Kenobi.
That lava bank and it's high ground are the only reasons Obi-Wan survived past that point. If they were removed, and no environmental advantages or elements are specified, what's Obi-Wan to do?
Originally posted by Lord LucienLol I've been giving reasons all the time to determine Kenobi's superiority over Anakin, but you have just outright ignored them. Vader blind-siding Sidious when he's not even looking is very different than Anakin making the choice to leave an opening in his defence. Basically Anakin/Vader was beaten by Obi Wan due to his lack of experience, not because of bad writing.
Yeah, he said that ironically. As in, [irony]"you're establishing one character's superiority over enough using only a technicality and PIS, so we might as well do it to all those other situations"[/irony]. Vader isn't a superior fighter to Sidious because he blind-sided him, Kenobi isn't a superior duelist to Maul because he jumped over him, Obi-Wan isn't a superior duelist to Anakin because he leapt from the low ground. Get it?
Originally posted by Lord LucienSo basically: Anakin wins every time when environmental variables are removed, but will lose when there ARE environmental variables? I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous argument. Anakin should be superior whether environmental variables are present or not. The real question is why was Obi Wan able to take advantage of his surroundings but not Anakin?
None of those factors are a part of "superior duelist" or "superior Force user". Not in a dead even setting, not with all environmental variables removed. That's why I said, way back when:That lava bank and it's high ground are the only reasons Obi-Wan survived past that point. If they were removed, and no environmental advantages or elements are specified, what's Obi-Wan to do?
Originally posted by mnat801Because he's cunning and clever. And Anakin was horribly engrossed in his rage. I'm not disagreeing with that. But yeah, the novel it makes quite clear from Obi-Wan's perspective that Anakin was the stronger, more deadly duelist. But Obi-Wan knows how to use the environment. Play tricks--he "reverses the polarity" in Anakin's hand, causing him to drop his lightsaber, and shortly afterward purposely dropped his lightsaber to get out of a nearly fatal situation. Both times Anakin responded not with a trick or cunning of his own, but with brute physical strength/Force--first by body/Force slamming Obi-Wan in to a wall, then by "instinctively shifting his Force grip" and bringing down a "thundering overhand". Power vs. experience, like Lucas said, and regardless of who brought what to the table, neither of them could best the other. Up until Obi-Wan jumped on to the bank.
Lol I've been giving reasons all the time to determine Kenobi's superiority over Anakin, but you have just outright ignored them. Vader blind-siding Sidious when he's not even looking is very different than Anakin making the choice to leave an opening in his defence. Basically Anakin/Vader was beaten by Obi Wan due to his lack of experience, not because of bad writing.So basically: Anakin wins every time when environmental variables are removed, but will lose when there ARE environmental variables? I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous argument. Anakin should be superior whether environmental variables are present or not. The real question is why was Obi Wan able to take advantage of his surroundings but not Anakin?
But... and this here's a massive, juicy BUT... Anakin was still stronger.
"Obi-Wan barely caught some [blaster bolts] and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back..."
"A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned."
[when Obi-Wan had reversed Anakin's hand, taking his saber] "Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide.... Dark power bore down with his grip. Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final break. 'Oh' he thought, 'this is bad."
"Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead."
How was Obi-Wan going to outlast that, without inducing the environment to his advantage? Because that's what he has to do in this thread. There's no environment to take advantage of. See the OP:
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Some people believe Kenobi only won because Anakin was conflicted and emotional. Others believe Kenobi would always beat Anakin because of his style and the fact that he knew Anakin in n out. So I figured I'd use peak anakin vs. Master Kenobi
No guns on the floor to fire, no tightropes to balance on, no lava rivers to ride, no high ground embankments to goad Anakin to leap toward. How is he going to outlast Anakin? And Zone Anakin at that. The guy who's thoughts and intentions aren't muddled, who realizes that the "terror and rage are [i]out there[i], in the fight instead of in his head," his mind "clear as a crystal bell" he "decides to win" (and does, with laughable, overwhelming ease) against one of the powerful opponents he's faced--the same opponent who swept Obi-Wan aside with similar ease.
Even with environmental factors thrown in, there's no guarantee Obi-Wan wins. He only survived against Sith Anakin due to experience. Amp up Anakin to 'Z0ne' and he's facing a worse opponent already. Then give him an environment that doesn't provide an accessible distraction, or trump card high ground which rests beside a deadly hazard that can only be accessed with a small floating platform, or any beneficial obstacle or room for which he can spring a trap... and he'll very likely be unable to live. Then try to remember that these are called "VARIABLES" and that there's a reason we don't include them in to matches. It's because they're VARIABLE. They are, by definition, prone to change and inconsistency. Especially when all we have to go on them for a match is supposition and "maybe they'd do this with this thing" or "maybe this'll happen with that thing". Do you see that yet?
So... how's Obi-Wan going to defeat Zone Anakin? How is he, without any environment to draw upon, without any effective goading to trick Anakin's "pristine clarity" in to an overhead leap from a low ground that doesn't exist, going to defeat him? Tell me how. Don't give me speculation, or just say "he'll find a way"--no, tell me how he's going to survive Peak Anakin's onslaught. Detail it for me. Draw me a diagram.
Those quotes only show Obi Wan having difficulty in the fight. And at the same time those points you're making simply show that Anakin is throwing everything he can at him, yes, and he's physically stronger, but STILL he can't break his defence and take the win. It eventually gets to the point in the fight that Anakin is so frustrated that he becomes reckless and makes the fatal leap. Because at the end of the day, its not about who almost beats their opponent, its who does beat their opponent.
And so this thread, Peak Anakin vs Peak Kenobi, comes down to interpretation. And my interpretation of the films - as I have not read the novel - is that Obi Wan is the superior combatant, not because he is more powerful or more stronger, but because he is more smarter and experienced. And Obi Wan being the last man standing in the Mustafar duel is my reason for this. So even if there are no environmental surroundings, imho Kenobi wins because he is the wiser and more experienced person. Yes Kenobi would have trouble lasting the fight, but he will eventually.
I would 100% agree with you... if this were the PT forum, that uses only the films. But as a subset of the EU forum, we use everything, including the novelizations--especially if they've been line-edited and approved by Lucas himself. It's why I keep saying "the novel makes it clear". And it does. The novel's the only reason we really know about Z0ne Anakin.
The film as a stand alone doesn't show any of those situations detailed in the above quotes. It has Obi-Wan getting choked and breaking free. It has both of them getting tired and moving slower by the end, and it has them on equal footing during the Force push duel. Judging solely by the movies Anakin=Obi-Wan if not Anakin<Obi-Wan (though to be fair, the movie sucks). But again, this the EU forum. We don't disregard G-canon, Lucas-approved works just because we haven't read them.
Let's get a few things straight here...
First, it is stated by the person put in charge of the saber combat of the movies who worked directly with Lucas... that Anakin was STRONGER and BETTER on Mustafar than he was at ANY point before that.
The battle wasn't PIS at all, that is just excuses brought to the table by the anakin apologists. They say he was conflicted and a mess... sorry that's a no go... We don't see him crying at all.. we don't see him give ANY sign of being stricken with guilt when fighting Kenobi.. Shit.. he almost killed his wife.. which are the actions of a power hungry angry sith not of a guilt ridden person. The person MORE convlicted was kenobi and yet he still won. It was stated in the novel HE WAS HOLDING BACK. Never once was it stated Anakin was holding back. So what we have is a holding back kenobi who was conflicted beats the best version dueling ankain the mythos had seen. People claim there was PIS because he jumped.... that is no more PIS than Kenobi not killing anakin early in the fight instead of deciding to lecture him.
How are we acting like Kenobi didn't use his environment to his advantage and it was only a mistake on Anakin part. That is' exactly what Kenobi does.. he waits and uses his tactics and skills to find an opening or make an opening. That is EXACTLY what he did. That isn't PIS when somebody wins fighting just how he usually wins.
It's also stated in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader that, on Mustafar, Anakin was vulnerable:
But even Sidious hadn't foreseen Anakin's defeat by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar. Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable. The failure to defeat his former Master had worked to prolong that vulnerability.
That should seal the deal.
That doesn't seal anything.. Vulnerable doesn't mean conflicted. neither does it excuse him defeat. Kenobi was also vulnerable as he was MORE conflicted. in fact, it was stated he was HOLDING BACK. While Anakin was never stated to be holding back. The person in charge of saber dueling and working directly and closely with Lucas says Anakin was at his strongest when Kenobi beat him. Which is true.. we don't see anakin making a whole bunch of dumb moves.. We don't see him not landing a killing blow when he could. he was attackign with such force that we've never seen him attack with. Shit.. kenobi was able to find an opening in a 20+ strike per second General to cut of a limb here and there. We
ve seen him reacting to Maul and Savage at the same time and find opening in a tight narrow space. he can clearly find opening in people and not take too long to do so. Here... he didn't find any for awhile.. which shows anakin was fighting very good and effectively.. not bad or with PIS like people are making out.
That should seal the deal
Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide asserts that Obi-Wan defeated Anakin after emotionally detaching from him.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That doesn't seal anything.. Vulnerable doesn't mean conflicted. neither does it excuse him defeat. Kenobi was also vulnerable as he was MORE conflicted. in fact, it was stated he was HOLDING BACK. While Anakin was never stated to be holding back. The person in charge of saber dueling and working directly and closely with Lucas says Anakin was at his strongest when Kenobi beat him. Which is true.. we don't see anakin making a whole bunch of dumb moves.. We don't see him not landing a killing blow when he could. he was attackign with such force that we've never seen him attack with. Shit.. kenobi was able to find an opening in a 20+ strike per second General to cut of a limb here and there. We
ve seen him reacting to Maul and Savage at the same time and find opening in a tight narrow space. he can clearly find opening in people and not take too long to do so. Here... he didn't find any for awhile.. which shows anakin was fighting very good and effectively.. not bad or with PIS like people are making out.That should seal the deal
Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide asserts that Anakin was becoming more ferocious with each passing moment during this duel.
Anakin made a miscalculation when Obi-Wan reached higher ground; it was during this point when Anakin was vulnerable, as per GL canon depiction.
Yes, it is logical fallacy to assume that Obi-Wan wasn't disturbed during this duel. Yes, he managed to remain calm and focused like a true Jedi Master would be; as a hint, he had to emotionally detach from Anakin to defeat him.
Found this, right from the start:
In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.
He actually lets go of the attachment:
The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ...
Obi-Wan still loved him.
Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.
Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...
He let it go.
From Rise of Darth Vader:
"I wasn't strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan," Vader said. Sidious had had enough.
"No, you weren't," he said. "So just imagine what Yoda might have done to you." He flung his words with brutal honesty. "Obi-Wan triumphed because he went to Mustafar with a single intention in mind: to kill Darth Vader. If the jedi order had showed such resolute intention, if it had remained focused on what needed to be done rather than on fears of the dark side, it might have proved more difficult to topple and eradicate. You and I might have lost everything. Do you understand?"
Vader looked at him, breathing deeply. "Then I suppose I should be grateful for what little I have been able to hold on to."
"Yes," Sidious said curtly. "You should."
and:
Go to the Jedi Temple, Sidious had said. We will catch them off balance. Do what must be done, Lord Vader Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme.
And so he had gone to the Temple.
Instrument of the same resolute intent that had carried Obi-Wan to Mustafar with one goal in mind: death to the enemy.
Sure, it's contradicted by a later-released novel.
Also, Jedi are trained to disarm, not kill (although, according to Fightsaber, when fighting ''extremely dangerous opponents'', they are willing to kill).
By that logic, we can say Mace held back against Sidious because he came to ''arrest'' him, not kill him.