ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin · Star Wars Versus Forum

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by ares834
Kenobi was hard-pressed against a raving very conflicted Anakin and only won due to some ridiculous writing.
Against a more powerful "clear-headed" Anakin, Kenobi has no chance.
Ankain wins this every time.

You can't come up with the excuse of bad writing, otherwise I could bring that up in almost every star wars fight in the films.

And I have already addressed that "a very conflicted Anakin" is also going up against a conflicted Obi Wan, as he is forced to do something he does not want to do. Obi Wan would not fight against a friend the same way he would against a true enemy, and that is part of the reason why he almost never goes on the offensive in the Mustafar duel.

ares834 Senior Member

He doesn't go on the offensive as that is his style. The novel straight up says this.

And yes, Kenobi was also undoubtedly conflicted, but you're going to have a hard time proving it was on the level of Anakin. Anakin has a problem with attachments, Kenobi doesn't.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Originally posted by truejedi
His victory on Mustafar wasn't an accident.

It really was.

NewGuy01 perpetual

Zone Anakin is more or less the same as Jedi Anakin after his fury is triggered.

Mustifar Anakin was indeed conflicted, and controlled by his emotions, leading to stupid moves and decisions. What really affected his combat ability is that he was between worlds. He hadn't completely given in to the Dark Side, and hadn't completely given up on the light. He was weaker because of that, as you are stronger with devotion to either side than between them.

However, it's very possible he still would have beaten Obi-Wan, but due to constant sparring during the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan and Anakin knew each other's moves inside out, and that is why neither of them could overcome the other for an extensive amount of time. Because both of them knew exactly how to defend against the other, resulting in a stalemate.

Anakin as his Jedi self, especially after he's tapped into his rage, would soundly defeat Obi-Wan.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mustifar Anakin was indeed conflicted, and controlled by his emotions, leading to stupid moves and decisions.

Um, where is this? It's something we've all said a lot in the past, but I can't really find anything to justify it. I just read through the Mustafar fight and I can find exactly one stupid decision on Anakin's part: his notorious attempt at jumping overhead. That's it. Actually even Obi-Wan made a really dumb move. He's able to use the Force to deactivate the grip in Anakin's metal hand and catches his lightsaber. And he hesitates. He holds both blades in a cross before him and actually gives the beginning of a lecture. Instead of, you know, killing Anakin, or chopping off his arms or something. He just stands there and lets Anakin Force-push/tackle him to the wall. He almost gets his wrists broken at that point. Technically he made two made mistakes, letting Vader live at the end, but that's not part of the duel, so w/e.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by ares834
And yes, Kenobi was also undoubtedly conflicted, but you're going to have a hard time proving it was on the level of Anakin.

Even if his emotions weren't as conflicted as Anakin's, it still certainly would have had an effect on the way he fought Vader, compared to any other enemy.

Originally posted by ares834
Anakin has a problem with attachments, Kenobi doesn't.

Obi Wan and Vader are master and padawan, as well as best friends. There's an attachment right there, and its possibly the most significant one!

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mustifar Anakin was indeed conflicted, and controlled by his emotions, leading to stupid moves and decisions. What really affected his combat ability is that he was between worlds. He hadn't completely given in to the Dark Side, and hadn't completely given up on the light. He was weaker because of that, as you are stronger with devotion to either side than between them.

I'm pretty sure he completely gave into the dark side, he slaughtered younglings and choked his wife to near death. And don't think he was weaker, as he owned a lot of the highly skilled and experienced jedi, e.g. Cin Drallig.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
However, it's very possible he still would have beaten Obi-Wan, but due to constant sparring during the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan and Anakin knew each other's moves inside out, and that is why neither of them could overcome the other for an extensive amount of time. Because both of them knew exactly how to defend against the other, resulting in a stalemate.
Anakin as his Jedi self, especially after he's tapped into his rage, would soundly defeat Obi-Wan.

That gives as much advantage or disadvantage to either person, so it basically cancels itself out.

ares834 Senior Member

Originally posted by mnat801
Obi Wan and Vader are master and padawan, as well as best friends. There's an attachment right there, and its possibly the most significant one!

Not what I was saying.

NewGuy01 perpetual

Originally posted by mnat801
I'm pretty sure he completely gave into the dark side, he slaughtered younglings and choked his wife to near death. And don't think he was weaker, as he owned a lot of the highly skilled and experienced jedi, e.g. Cin Drallig.
That gives as much advantage or disadvantage to either person, so it basically cancels itself out.

Not... Really. It's stated in Rise of Darth Vader that Anakin was "between worlds", and vulnerable. Even with a disadvantage, Anakin is still a level above the likes of Cin Drallig.

And as for the "cancelling out", this is not a math equation. If two entities of similar power, one slightly more powerful than the other, know each others technique as well as they know their own, despite one's superior power, it will almost always result in a stalemate. Because both of them know exactly how to counter the other, and neither can break through the others defenses.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by ares834
Not what I was saying.

lol

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And as for the "cancelling out", this is not a math equation. If two entities of similar power, one slightly more powerful than the other, know each others technique as well as they know their own, despite one's superior power, it will almost always result in a stalemate. Because both of them know exactly how to counter the other, and neither can break through the others defenses.

Well that's the exact reason why I said it cancels itself out. But remember in the end it was Obi Wan that broke Anakin's defense.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

When?

mnat801 Senior Member

When Anakin took the leap of stupidity.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

How is that Kenobi "breaking" his defenses?

mnat801 Senior Member

While Anakin jumps, he leaves an opening in his defence, and Obi Wan cuts off his limbs.

Intrepid37 Restricted

Might as well establish TPM Kenobi>Maul, or Vader>RotJ Sidious, or Kenobi>Maul+Savage, or Ventress>Kenobi+Anakin, or Savage>Anakin+Kenobi, or Anakin>>>>Dooku.

No. Even with a conclifted and hindered mind, Anakin was still forcing Kenobi back.

The fight was a result of PIS and circumstances.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Originally posted by mnat801
While Anakin jumps, he leaves an opening in his defence, and Obi Wan cuts off his limbs.

Yeah, what Intrepid said. Kenobi may have "won the duel", certainly. But it wasn't due to superior lightsaber skills or Force powers. PIS isn't some bullshit we bring up for no reason, it's an integral part of many stories and narratives. In this versus forum, we don't use PIS as an attributable skill or power to a character.

Vensai Senior Member

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah, what Intrepid said. Kenobi may have "won the duel", certainly. But it wasn't due to superior lightsaber skills or Force powers. PIS isn't some bullshit we bring up for no reason, it's an integral part of many stories and narratives. In this versus forum, we don't use PIS as an attributable skill or power to a character.

Since it was Sith Anakin, I'd probably chalk that up to CIS.

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

CIS is just a specific variation of PIS. They're usually synonyms.

mnat801 Senior Member

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Might as well establish TPM Kenobi>Maul, or Vader>RotJ Sidious, or Kenobi>Maul+Savage, or Ventress>Kenobi+Anakin, or Savage>Anakin+Kenobi, or Anakin>>>>Dooku.
No. Even with a conclifted and hindered mind, Anakin was still forcing Kenobi back.
The fight was a result of PIS and circumstances.

1. TPM Maul is superior to TPM Kenobi, because the fight was Maul vs Kenobi & Jinn. Without Jinn, Kenobi would have his ass handed to him.

2. Why would Vader be above Sidious?

3. Kenobi only above Savage and approx equal to Maul.

4. Ventress never beat the duo.

5. Savage never beat the duo.

6. As of ROTS, Anakin > Dooku.

Anakin was forcing Kenobi back. Okay. But did he break his defences? No. If anything, it shows Vader's offensive style vs Kenobi's defensive style.