Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I hope that he's going to use his Heisenburg-powers for good this time, and achieve some manner of redemption while being stone cold badass.
I think this is exactly right. It was essentially communicated to us that his last chance for redemption lies in embracing Heisenburg fully. When he contacted Flynn before the last scene that was him trying to muster some form of redemption as Walter White, and it didn't work. Now his last chance is as Heisenburg.
You can skip to the next post to see where you've been going wrong this whole time with the Schwartzes vs. Aryans problem.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Except it wasn't.
I have no idea to what this statement applies and I don't care to try and figure it out.
What is "it"?
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Walt decided to give up, but fate kicked in and then kicked him in the butt with Hank's death.
I don't think he gave up. I saw a scheming Heisenberg when they shook hands.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Hence my point stands, and there is nothing to argue here.
So you agree with me about Jesse, then?
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Nope, it's exactly the way I put it. Jesse was the reason that entire clusterphuck of events even transpired, and since both he and the Nazis were there right at the spot, Walt decided to get them to finish the job that they had come to start. This time however, he didn't care about the manner of his execution, or that the Nazis were willing to torture him for days to come.
So we agree, again (and my previous question is answered, here, as well).
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Otherwise, Walt was no way in hell okay with what went down there.
We agree, here, too. He was definitely not okay. He would have preferred Hank not be involved and Jesse dead. That was his preference at that point.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Not even in the slightest. You don't go about planning a hit on people that you're even "slightly okay" with.
I agree but I don't understand why you are telling me this.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
It absolutely was.
Call me old fashion but they shook on the "deal"...so it wasn't stolen.
Also, Walt already gave up his business and handed it over to the Aryans. That was the deal with having them kill Jesse (by this point, Walt already knew that the Aryans were "it" for his former massive meth business and they needed his help to train them how to make his stuff...as we saw in a previous scene where he tried to enlist their help to off Jesse).
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
After a very specific condition, one which the Nazis very specifically ignored.
I assume you mean they are keeping Jesse alive instead of killing him? But making that point would be out-of-context form our conversation about what went down in the desert. That was after the fact. However, I do have a question regarding that: do the Aryans plan on not killing Jesse? If that was made obvious in the last episode, then they renegged on their deal. Then we must prove that Walt found out that they were no longer going to kill Jesse.
Also, Walt already gave up his business and handed it over to the Aryans. That was the deal with having them kill Jesse.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I suppose your real issue with me is that I didn't address each of the SchwartzVSNazi points you made. I'll do it now, especially for you DDM:"1. Offer 1/8 of the profits."
Profits which they did practically nothing to earn, with the only possible exception for Todd, and he used to get his cut as well while he was still assisting Walt in the cook.
Firstly, thanks a bunch for keeping it on my points. That makes it easier to respond. Next: Walt could not have made that money without the Aryans awesome hits. Walt did pay them, of course. Also, Walt lost all claim to that money when he lost control of his life and forfeit it. He (Jack) bought his (Walt's) freedom from the DEA and he (Jack) bought Walt's acceptance with Jesse's interrogation (because, at this point, Walt still cared about not involving his family and Walt was not prepared to torture Jesse to see how much he told the DEA). Walt should not have gotten any money but the Aryans took pity on him. Thank goodness for Todd.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
"2. Save him from going to jail for the rest of his life."
Save him from something which he was willing to submit to? How generous of them.
Indeed. Good thing they did that. But, if you had responded with something other than snarky sarcasm and actually made a legit reply, you would have said something like, "And didn't Elliot offer to pay for Walt's cancer treatment? Yeah, I think the Aryans and the Schwartzes are even, on this one."
Had you made that point, I would have agreed. That's how you keep a conversation flowing and above-board (or rather, to keep them from descending into e-peen swinging contests).
But to actually address your empty sarcasm, Walt had a moment of weakness and he clearly did not want to go to prison. If he did, why did he not just turn himself in right after Hank's death? Walt just did not want to see a way out because the only way out was killing Hank.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
"3. Kill 11 people that might rat on him or his operation."
Paid for it. Lol. Try again.
You clearly missed the point. That point was not that Walt paid for it but that they were business partners and had already forged ground together in a mutually beneficial agreement. This is supposed to contrast with what went down with the Schwartzes. That's what your focus is supposed to be: the contrast.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
"4. Take over his drug enterprise after he wanted to retire."
What a bullshit point to make in this discussion. First of all, it wasn't the Nazis who were willing to take after his operation, that boat belonged to Declan's crew. Lydia was the one who arranged for it to be transferred to the Nazis. And where exactly do you get the notion that Walt even cared a rat's ass about what happened in the meth business at that point(apart from the obvious fact about something that might compromise his criminal secrets)? That's the only way for this point of yours to even make sense at all in this conversation.
And yet, Walt knew by the time he called them in the desert that they were taking over his former drug empire. They even "begged" him to come back and he refused. It took them virtually blackmailing the hit on Jesse to get him to finally get him to agree to get back into the business (one cook). But, you should have known all of that or rather, I think you do know all that.
See, this is what you were supposed to take from that point: Walt is a prideful man. That was his empire. While he pretended on the surface to not care and wanted to retire, he still had massive pride in what he did. So much pride, in fact, that we should see how that plays out in this last episode.
Basically, what I'm saying is, you're missing most of my points because you're not really paying attention (or rather, you're focusing on everything but those things...but I think you actually are aware of them but specifically gloss over them to your e-peen fights) to the narrative and the character motivations.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
"5. Torture a traitor to get all information possible to prevent them all from going to jail."
Again, a bullshit point. During the time period that Jesse was getting tortured, Walt had already gone to the Vacuum Repair guy and managed to acquire a new identity to make a fresh start. And it didn't really matter, because Skyler eventually spilled his beans, thereby putting Walt on the run. Not to mention what the Nazis were doing had not a lick to do anything with Walt. They were merely saving their own asses.
Well, it seems you understood this point (because you mentioned Skyler which means you were obviously thinking about her) but are dancing around the reason why it is such a poignant reason: Walt was still thinking about his family, at the time. Had Jesse spilled enough implicative beans, his family would now be involved and that was the one thing he absolutely did not want to go down in this whole mess (such as his son knowing what he had been doing). So, you indirectly acknowledge why this was such a strong point I just made but danced around it. No thanks to your game.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
So there, I have thoroughly addressed and sufficiently answered each of your original points. My claims regarding the parallels between how the Schwartzes and the Nazis make profits off of Walt's brilliance still stands.
I disagree. What it seems like you did was dance around most of the points, missed much of what the points actually did to function as a contrast between the Aryans and the Schwartzes, and did more e-peen swinging. Your point does not stand: you never had one to start standing with.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
He did though. It's Walt's recipe that his crew was using to make the bucks before the multi-million dollar lottery that they won.
One that they could not get right and they asked Walt's help to get right. "One cook" remember? That was not stealing, by the way: Todd just picked up as much as he could while cooking with Walt but that was not enough (but Walt was clearly okay with that).
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
t's his recipe that his evil nephew continues to use to make even greater profits(along with the obvious agenda of impressing Lydia).
Todd's motivations aside, still wasn't stolen. If it was stolen, Walt would have gone all Heisenburg on his ass, already. hehehehe
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Just like the Schwartzes using Walt's research make their own big bucks.
Your parallel sucks so bad that we don't even know if that's a proper parallel. We have no idea what went down between Walt and the Schwartzes other than Walt blaming them for his money issues and accusing them of stealing from him. We don't even know if the Schwartzes did anything wrong (ethically, morally, or legally). That's just the shit Walt said. Unconfirmed rage from Walt, is what it is.
Has Walt blamed the Aryans for his money issues?
Has Walt accused the Aryans for stealing his research?
DDM. I don't get (beyond trolling) your position here.
It absurdly clear that the Aryans stole the money.
If someone were to present you with a deal whereby you pay offer them a hundred bucks if they come round and wash your car, and you shake on it, then you walk out onto your driveway and find the car reamins unwashed and now its possibly covered in dogshit inside and out and your money gone: They have not forfilled their side of the deal and therefore they are not entitled to the money that they took. IE they stole it.
Godkiller has been right all along here.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I have no idea to what this statement applies and I don't care to try and figure it out.What is "it"?
Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't think he gave up. I saw a scheming Heisenberg when they shook hands.
Originally posted by dadudemon
So you agree with me about Jesse, then?
Originally posted by dadudemon
So we agree, again (and my previous question is answered, here, as well).
Originally posted by dadudemon
So we agree, again (and my previous question is answered, here, as well).
Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree but I don't understand why you are telling me this.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Call me old fashion but they shook on the "deal"...so it wasn't stolen.Also, Walt already gave up his business and handed it over to the Aryans. That was the deal with having them kill Jesse (by this point, Walt already knew that the Aryans were "it" for his former massive meth business and they needed his help to train them how to make his stuff...as we saw in a previous scene where he tried to enlist their help to off Jesse).
Lol, there was no business to "hand over" because Walt had already quit way before that. Not to mention that it was Declan's crew to whom Walt originally "handed over" his operation, until Lydia phucked those poor buggers in the ass. Walt only agreed to do one cook to get Todd reacquanted with the process. There is absolutely nothing to "hand over", when the Nazis took it by force with Walt not giving 2 sh1ts about his operation until the Jesse issue came up. Not sure what you're trying to prove with this claim.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I assume you mean they are keeping Jesse alive instead of killing him? But making that point would be out-of-context form our conversation about what went down in the desert. That was after the fact. However, I do have a question regarding that: do the Aryans plan on not killing Jesse? If that was made obvious in the last episode, then they renegged on their deal. Then we must prove that Walt found out that they were no longer going to kill Jesse.Also, Walt already gave up his business and handed it over to the Aryans. That was the deal with having them kill Jesse.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Firstly, thanks a bunch for keeping it on my points. That makes it easier to respond. Next: Walt could not have made that money without the Aryans awesome hits. Walt did pay them, of course. Also, Walt lost all claim to that money when he lost control of his life and forfeit it. He (Jack) bought his (Walt's) freedom from the DEA and he (Jack) bought Walt's acceptance with Jesse's interrogation (because, at this point, Walt still cared about not involving his family and Walt was not prepared to torture Jesse to see how much he told the DEA). Walt should not have gotten any money but the Aryans took pity on him. Thank goodness for Todd.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Indeed. Good thing they did that. But, if you had responded with something other than snarky sarcasm and actually made a legit reply, you would have said something like, "And didn't Elliot offer to pay for Walt's cancer treatment? Yeah, I think the Aryans and the Schwartzes are even, on this one."Had you made that point, I would have agreed. That's how you keep a conversation flowing and above-board (or rather, to keep them from descending into e-peen swinging contests).
But to actually address your empty sarcasm, Walt had a moment of weakness and he clearly did not want to go to prison. If he did, why did he not just turn himself in right after Hank's death? Walt just did not want to see a way out because the only way out was killing Hank.
Because Walt wanted to get even with the Nazis for Hank's death. In a previous episode Walt clearly told Skyler that he was willing to give himself up as long she ensured that his money went to their children. Not to mention that Walt's most recent attempt to give himself up(which was only allayed by his egositic rage at the Schwartzes lies regarding his contributions to Gray Matter) undermines your point even further.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You clearly missed the point. That point was not that Walt paid for it but that they were business partners and had already forged ground together in a mutually beneficial agreement. This is supposed to contrast with what went down with the Schwartzes. That's what your focus is supposed to be: the contrast.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And yet, Walt knew by the time he called them in the desert that they were taking over his former drug empire. They even "begged" him to come back and he refused. It took them virtually blackmailing the hit on Jesse to get him to finally get him to agree to get back into the business (one cook). But, you should have known all of that or rather, I think you do know all that.See, this is what you were supposed to take from that point: Walt is a prideful man. That was his empire. While he pretended on the surface to not care and wanted to retire, he still had massive pride in what he did. So much pride, in fact, that we should see how that plays out in this last episode.
Basically, what I'm saying is, you're missing most of my points because you're not really paying attention (or rather, you're focusing on everything but those things...but I think you actually are aware of them but specifically gloss over them to your e-peen fights) to the narrative and the character motivations.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, it seems you understood this point (because you mentioned Skyler which means you were obviously thinking about her) but are dancing around the reason why it is such a poignant reason: Walt was still thinking about his family, at the time. Had Jesse spilled enough implicative beans, his family would now be involved and that was the one thing he absolutely did not want to go down in this whole mess (such as his son knowing what he had been doing). So, you indirectly acknowledge why this was such a strong point I just made but danced around it. No thanks to your game.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. What it seems like you did was dance around most of the points, missed much of what the points actually did to function as a contrast between the Aryans and the Schwartzes, and did more e-peen swinging. Your point does not stand: you never had one to start standing with.
My computer actually crashed from the irony overload in this segment of your post.
Originally posted by dadudemon
One that they could not get right and they asked Walt's help to get right. "One cook" remember? That was not stealing, by the way: Todd just picked up as much as he could while cooking with Walt but that was not enough (but Walt was clearly okay with that).Todd's motivations aside, still wasn't stolen. If it was stolen, Walt would have gone all Heisenburg on his ass, already. hehehehe
Your parallel sucks so bad that we don't even know if that's a proper parallel. We have no idea what went down between Walt and the Schwartzes other than Walt blaming them for his money issues and accusing them of stealing from him. We don't even know if the Schwartzes did anything wrong (ethically, morally, or legally). That's just the shit Walt said. Unconfirmed rage from Walt, is what it is.
Has Walt blamed the Aryans for his money issues?
Has Walt accused the Aryans for stealing his research?
Because Walt didn't care. Walt never went Heisenberg on the Scwartzes ass either(maybe the in finale he might, but let's wait and see). What exactly are you trying to prove?
Nope. Gretchen clearly gave off a guilt-ridden vibe when Walt revealed how he had lied to Skyler about them paying for his treatment. What we know is that Walt's early research is what ended up turning Gray Matter into the billion dollar baby that it is today.
There you go: "They killed Hank. They stole my life's work."
The meth recipe was never an actual research per se, and it's an illegal business anyways, so why would he? Nevertheless, ripping off someone else's recipe is stealing, no matter how you try to twist it.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Spot on, although on the "how much of Jesse's fault is it?" front:Walt blackmailed Jesse in the 1st episode into getting involved with Walt under threat of being turned into the DEA.
Everything subsequent to that that Jesse did is still kinda arguably Walt's fault.
What it all boils down is the revelation of Brock's poisoning. That was Jesse's breaking point.
Tbh, despite everything that Walt has ever done, he has always looked out for Jesse, and gave him his 5 million dollar cut after he retired. Jesse nearly compromised them all by throwing that money around in the neighborhood, and then by phucking up the wire that Hank and Gomie were recording due to sheer paranoia, which led to the so-called "better way" that resulted in Hank and Gomie getting buried in a desert and Walt being forced into self-exile, Jesse pretty much sealed his own fate that an overtly emotional(and arguably somewhat stupid) meth junkie like him should have suffered at the very beginning of a story like this.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
DDM. I don't get (beyond trolling) your position here.
My position was made quite clear from the beginning (and the end of the post):
The Aryans are not the same as the Schwartzes as he claimed.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
It absurdly clear that the Aryans stole the money.
I disagree and I've already stated why.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
If someone were to present you with a deal whereby you pay offer them a hundred bucks if they come round and wash your car, and you shake on it, then you walk out onto your driveway and find the car reamins unwashed and now its possibly covered in dogshit inside and out and your money gone: They have not forfilled their side of the deal and therefore they are not entitled to the money that they took. IE they stole it.
That's a poor comparison.
In fact, I cannot think of any parallel comparison because his situation was very specific.
If someone saved your life (because he would have supposedly died while rotting in a jail cell) and your family from being exposed to criminal life; while also taking into custody the person that threatened to ruin all of that, to beat all the information they could out of him to see what they needed to do to mitigate all the damage, while promising to kill him afterwards like you originally agreed; offered to let me keep 1/8 of my life savings, and I shook on it at the end of the whole ordeal, no, I could not claim I was robbed or that my money was stolen.
There is no quick and easy metaphor we can draw to that situation: it's too complicated.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Godkiller has been right all along here.
The point was The Aryans and The Schwartzes are the same in Walt's eyes because they both stole his research and life's work. That's not only unsubstantiatable, that's also not true.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
DDM. I don't get (beyond trolling) your position here.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yeah apparently trolling...
If I'm trolling, use the report button. If I'm not, why are you using that word inappropriately just because you hold a different opinion?
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Tbh, despite everything that Walt has ever done, he has always looked out for Jesse, and gave him his 5 million dollar cut after he retired. Jesse nearly compromised them all by throwing that money around in the neighborhood, and then by phucking up the wire that Hank and Gomie were recording due to sheer paranoia, which led to the so-called "better way" that resulted in Hank and Gomie getting buried in a desert and Walt being forced into self-exile, Jesse pretty much sealed his own fate that an overtly emotional(and arguably somewhat stupid) meth junkie like him should have suffered at the very beginning of a story like this.
This is part of why I hold that Jesse is the real problem. Even if we go over board with the causaility and use the first episode to blame who started what, they eventually made up and were best of friends. A clean slate then starts.
Originally posted by Sadako of GirthTo be fair, they would have left you about 15 dollars of that hundred in your dirty dog shit covered car and then made you shake on it under the threat that if you didn't, they burn down your car. So you should be grateful :/
DDM. I don't get (beyond trolling) your position here.It absurdly clear that the Aryans stole the money.
If someone were to present you with a deal whereby you pay offer them a hundred bucks if they come round and wash your car, and you shake on it, then you walk out onto your driveway and find the car reamins unwashed and now its possibly covered in dogshit inside and out and your money gone: They have not forfilled their side of the deal and therefore they are not entitled to the money that they took. IE they stole it.
Godkiller has been right all along here.
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4424804,00.html
from an hebrew interview (use google translate if you want)
Gilligan says that Gus Fring was the smartest man in the show (smarter than Walt) and that Walt killing him was a lucky move
Originally posted by focus4chumps
i cant believe we are arguing whether or not the aryans stole walts' money.thanks for clowning yet up another discussion with your obnoxious trolling ddm.
Originally posted by dadudemon
If I'm trolling, use the report button. If I'm not, why are you using that word inappropriately just because you hold a different opinion?
its not a matter of opinion ddm.
walt offered the money to them in exchange for them sparing hanks life. /fact
they killed hank and took the money anyway. /fact
this is not a debatable point. they stole his money. the argument of whether this is true is entirely for trolls and dimwits.
but dont facts stop you from having the last word via tireless rebutting. that proves you're right 👆
Originally posted by Lestov16
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4424804,00.html
from an hebrew interview (use google translate if you want)Gilligan says that Gus Fring was the smartest man in the show (smarter than Walt) and that Walt killing him was a lucky move
you can read hebrew? 🤨