General Grevious vs Savage Opress

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What's your point? Him and Maul together were challenging Kenobi too, and yet he still ended up with one arm and a broken leg.
And did you forget that Grievous fought Ki-Adi Mundi and Shaak Ti simultaneously.
That is>>Any of Savage's feats.

Nope. It's specifically noted those Jedi were all completely exhausted. Opress has battered Ventress (just 2 episodes after she defeated Grievous) and he also stomped on a Council Member. Grievous to my knowledge has never canonically matched or defeated a Council member unless they were already exhausted.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
As of Cetus Deception, which takes place in 22 BBY. Ventress that early in the Clone Wars got stomped by 2 saber General Grievous with Durge as back up. Fisto whooped on 3 saber Grievous. Jar'Kai Fisto can match Ventress. Shi-Cho's weakness is against multiple foes which is why opponents like Ventress and Grievous tax his defenses, however by adding an additional saber into the mix he can minimize the form's weakeness.

It's rather clear that Kit Fisto is a far better swordsman than you give him credit.

It doesn't matter because Opress battered a more powerful Ventress who soundly defeated a better trained Grievous than the one Fisto fought early in the CW.

I'm getting pretty tired of this Fisto wankage all because he was defeating Grievous. There's nothing to put him in Opress's league or Obi-Wan's.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What's your point? Dooku taught Grievous that fear surprise and intimidation were his key strengths.

Yeah because he can't take Council members in a fair fight. So he has to resort to cheap tactics.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Bullshit. Kenobi was able to break Savage's knee with a few kicks. When he tried that on Grievous, he ended up with the broken foot. In a raw hand to hand Grievous would dominate Savage, he is stronger.

Now I call bullshit. Opress floored Dooku and battered Ventress with his strength. Grievous couldn't do either.

And Kenobi specifically targetted Opress's knee because body shots wern't doing any harm to him at all. And it's not like it took one kick! He kept targeting the same spot.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No it wasn't it's shown as being more powerful than even Shaak Ti's TK at 2:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-3talVkUA

Kenobi is way faster than Opress. So no, I believe Grievous can soundly react to Opress.

Just stop the bullcrap. Grievous can't take Kenobi's Force TK. Or Eeth Koth's for that matter. So he's definitely not taking Opress's.

And what's speed got to do with it? This is getting lame. He's not dodging Opress's Force Wave.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And yet Mace had trouble with Grievous in raw sabers. And Mace Windu is the second most powerful Jedi Master of his age. He is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Savage Opress.

That was very circumstantial. In an all out in more normal circumstances we've seen Mace simply Force crush Grievous. It wouldn't be very different with Opress. He's a Force beast.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nope. It's specifically noted those Jedi were all completely exhausted. Opress has battered Ventress (just 2 episodes after she defeated Grievous) and he also stomped on a Council Member. Grievous to my knowledge has never canonically matched or defeated a Council member unless they were already exhausted.

Dude...Jango Fett killed a council member that does not mean he could defeat Grievous. And it doesn't matter if they were exhausted, there were 5 of them.

It doesn't matter because Opress battered a more powerful Ventress who soundly defeated a better trained Grievous than the one Fisto fought early in the CW.

Fisto's performance during Cetus Deception is an obvious low lier in terms of his performance. Jar'Kai Fisto would be in Ventress' league.

I'm getting pretty tired of this Fisto wankage all because he was defeating Grievous. There's nothing to put him in Opress's league or Obi-Wan's.

Get it through your head Grievous is in Opress's league.

Yeah because he can't take Council members in a fair fight. So he has to resort to cheap tactics.

That's why a completely fresh Shaak Ti retreated from him with 2 Jedi Masters as her back up right?
That's why Grievous could go toe to toe with Mace Windu in Labyrinth right?
Grievous is solidly above most of the Council in raw sabers. He has trouble when the Force comes into play, but in many circumstances he can outright dodge Force Pushes.

Now I call bullshit. Opress floored Dooku and battered Ventress with his strength. Grievous couldn't do either.

Grievous dented durasteel starship plating with a punch. That is>>any strength feats Opress has.

And Kenobi specifically targetted Opress's knee because body shots wern't doing any harm to him at all. And it's not like it took one kick! He kept targeting the same spot.

Just stop the bullcrap. Grievous can't take Kenobi's Force TK. Or Eeth Koth's for that matter. So he's definitely not taking Opress's.

And what's speed got to do with it? This is getting lame. He's not dodging Opress's Force Wave.

That was very circumstantial. In an all out in more normal circumstances we've seen Mace simply Force crush Grievous. It wouldn't be very different with Opress. He's a Force beast. [/B]

In many accounts, Grievous has won while defeating VASTLY greater numbers! Grievous has taken more clones out in the show alone than Savage has taken out anyone. Also, Grievous has killed a jedi in the current cartoon. Has Savage? And several times when they sparred, Dooku was hard-pressed to beat Grievous without being taken by surprise!

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dude...Jango Fett killed a council member that does not mean he could defeat Grievous. And it doesn't matter if they were exhausted, there were 5 of them.

Of course it matters they were exhausted. I may be able to beat up 5 martial artists if they had just run the marathon.

And only 2 of them were Council members IIRC.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Fisto's performance during Cetus Deception is an obvious low lier in terms of his performance. Jar'Kai Fisto would be in Ventress' league.

And I would call Griveous defeating Ventress and Durge a definite low performance for Ventress.

Ah so your differentiating between a Jar Kai Fisto and a single Saber Fisto.. That's interesting.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Get it through your head Grievous is in Opress's league.

Lol. Dude Opress would crush him with the Force.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's why a completely fresh Shaak Ti retreated from him with 2 Jedi Masters as her back up right?
That's why Grievous could go toe to toe with Mace Windu in Labyrinth right?
Grievous is solidly above most of the Council in raw sabers. He has trouble when the Force comes into play, but in many circumstances he can outright dodge Force Pushes.

Shaak Ti was exhausted both times she faced Grievous. This was specifically pointed out in the show.

Mace in an all out crushes Grievous with the Force.

Grievous can't dodge an omni- Force Wave that put down mutiple Destroyer droids and battle droids surrounding Opress.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except he has shown that he can take TK that can rip up durasteel plates and destroy hallways. Not to mention that he also has shown the ability to take an anti-tank missile point blank and come out with zero damage.

Speed has a lot to do with it. GG is one of the fastest SW characters out there.

Opress would get raped by Mace in an all out force contest so your point is mute.

Doesn't matter. Because Opress >> Obi-Wan in Force TK. Also no contest. And Grievous has never been able to stand up to Obi-Wan's TK.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Also, Grievous has killed a jedi in the current cartoon. Has Savage?

Please don't comment on characters you obviously know little to nothing about.

Savage killed a Council Member in the last episode he was in.

He battered Ventress in the episode before that (who soundly defeated Grievous without using any Force TK just 3 episodes earlier).

And in his very first episode he killed a Jedi Master without any training in the Force whatsoever.

The one Knight Grievous killed in the new series was not a Master (Dooku tells him for him to kill a Master would be a great achievement for him), and he killed him by shooting him.

As far as I know Grievous has not canonically defeated a Council Member anywhere (apart from where they were completely exhausted).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]Of course it matters they were exhausted. I may be able to beat up 5 martial artists if they had just run the marathon.

And only 2 of them were Council members IIRC.

And I would call Griveous defeating Ventress and Durge a definite low performance for Ventress.

It's not a low-lier for her considering the tooling Kenobi gives her in the Clone Wars movie.

Ah so your differentiating between a Jar Kai Fisto and a single Saber Fisto.. That's interesting.

I am differentiating between Early CW Fisto and mid-late CW Fisto.

Lol. Dude Opress would crush him with the Force.

Roron Corobb and Shaak Ti's force feats are>>>Opress' and they could not handle Grievous with the force.

Shaak Ti was exhausted both times she faced Grievous. This was specifically pointed out in the show.

Even when she was fresh Shaak Ti consistently retreated from Grievous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-3talVkUA
7:31
Grievous casually bats aside two Masters.
Shaak Ti all but outright admits inferiority to Grievous.

Mace in an all out crushes Grievous with the Force.

Red herring.

Grievous can't dodge an omni- Force Wave that put down mutiple Destroyer droids and battle droids surrounding Opress.

Doesn't matter. Because Opress >> Obi-Wan in Force TK. Also no contest. And Grievous has never been able to stand up to Obi-Wan's TK.

No he isn't. Kenobi's TK matched a bloodlusted Darth Vader's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Please don't comment on characters you obviously know little to nothing about.

Savage killed a Council Member in the last episode he was in.

He battered Ventress in the episode before that (who soundly defeated Grievous without using any Force TK just 3 episodes earlier).

And in his very first episode he killed a Jedi Master without any training in the Force whatsoever.

The one Knight Grievous killed in the new series was not a Master (Dooku tells him for him to kill a Master would be a great achievement for him), and he killed him by shooting him.

As far as I know Grievous has not canonically defeated a Council Member anywhere (apart from where they were completely exhausted).

Savage should win easily, IMO. And no, I'm too lazy and busy to defend my opinion.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No he isn't. Kenobi's TK matched a bloodlusted Darth Vader's.

Good point. However, I can't think of any great force feats from Anakin except for the one in LoE which seemed to be a one time sorta deal.

Originally posted by ares834
Savage should win easily, IMO. And no, I'm too lazy and busy to defend my opinion.

Good point. However, I can't think of any great force feats from Anakin except for the one in LoE which seemed to be a one time sorta deal.

Holding off a multi-kiloton explosion back comes to mind. Also TKing that statue in the ROTS video game.

The explosion feat wasn't that great, but yeah, the statue feat is quite considerable. Completely forgot about that one.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No you wouldn't. That's also a red herring. Taking 5 Jedi, two of which being amongst the finest blademasters in the order, even when they are tired is a huge feat.

And yet after that showing he couldn't even take just 1 Council Member. They were clearly exhausted. It wasn't a fair fight.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's not a low-lier for her considering the tooling Kenobi gives her in the Clone Wars movie..

He beat her. It wasn't a tooling. She disarmed him at one point. And have you completely forgotten the complete tooling Kenobi gives Grievous in ROTS??? He also tools him with the Force in Arc Troopers. And he defeats him while fighting off magnaguards in Grievous Intirgue. There's no competition between Kenobi and Grievous.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am differentiating between Early CW Fisto and mid-late CW Fisto.

Based on what?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Roron Corobb and Shaak Ti's force feats are>>>Opress' and they could not handle Grievous with the force.

Opress is considerably more powerful than either of them.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Even when she was fresh Shaak Ti consistently retreated from Grievous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-3talVkUA
7:31
Grievous casually bats aside two Masters.
Shaak Ti all but outright admits inferiority to Grievous.

Just because she was intimidated by him doesn't mean she was inferior. They never had a fair fight.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Why not? He's dodged other Jedi's TKs and even if he can't dodge it why can't he tank it? He tanked a way more powerful TK in CW animated series.

Because he's never ever been able to tank Obi-Wan's force attacks. And he's not dodging an Omni-Blast. Or even a huge Force Wave for that matter. End of story.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No he isn't. Kenobi's TK matched a bloodlusted Darth Vader's.

Now you've just lost it. We've flat out seen Opress chuck Kenobi around with the Force. And he has much greater feats.

Kenobi matching Vader's Force push was clearly a low feat for Vader. Simply because if Vader was that weak with the Force, then Count Dooku would have easily Force Choked him on any of the mutiple times they've fought.

There's nothing to suggest Obi-Wan could do the Jedi Statue feat. Or even anything close to that.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Have you read the comics? Yes grievous has defeated council members! And sorry, I didn't see that episode. Anyway, The point is that Grievous has also had much more training than Savage has.

Which Council member has he defeated in the comics?

More training? Lol. Do you know how much training in the Force Grievous has?? Oh that's right. He doesn't even have the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which Council member has he defeated in the comics?

More training? Lol. Do you know how much training in the Force Grievous has?? Oh that's right. He doesn't even have the Force.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
I was talking about Lightsaber training. Savage is relatively new to the Force. He was enhanced by Mother Talzan to use the Force. Grievous is a warrior with a lifetime of experience of war and fighting. He is a brilliant tactical genious. He was trained by Dooku for way longer than Savage was.

People have this misconception that the only combat training Savage ever had was a few weeks training from Dooku. That's not true at all.

Savage was from a warrior tribe so also has a lifetime of experience at fighting. In fact the guy was able to kill a Jedi Master with no training from Count Dooku whatsoever.

But what gives him the definitive advantage over Grievous is his Raw Power in the Force. The training he's had from Count Dooku and will get from from Darth Maul is honing that Raw Force power he has.

Anyway Ventress also had much more training from Count Dooku than Opress did, and yet Opress battered her (and she battered Grievous just 3 episodes earlier). So the point's moot anyway.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
People have this misconception that the only combat training Savage ever had was a few weeks training from Dooku. That's not true at all.

It might as well be considering how Dooku treated him in their training session and in the fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet after that showing he couldn't even take just 1 Council Member. They were clearly exhausted. It wasn't a fair fight.

He beat her. It wasn't a tooling. She disarmed him at one point. And have you completely forgotten the complete tooling Kenobi gives Grievous in ROTS??? He also tools him with the Force in Arc Troopers. And he defeats him while fighting off magnaguards in Grievous Intirgue. There's no competition between Kenobi and Grievous.

Lol wut? That was not a complete tooling. Grievous was overwhelming Kenobi's defenses at one point. What the hell do you mean tools with the force? Getting off one force push is not a tooling.

Based on what?

Uhhh based on him losing to early Clone Wars Ventress who was casually defeated by two-sabered Grievous. Then he went on to push back 4 sabered Grievous.

Opress is considerably more powerful than either of them.

I hope you are joking. Force wise Corobb's TK can peal up durasteel plates and blow away dozens of Super Battle droids. And Shaak Ti made a Dark Side nexus her *****. Shaak Ti would dominate Savage Opress.

Just because she was intimidated by him doesn't mean she was inferior. They never had a fair fight.

Because he's never ever been able to tank Obi-Wan's force attacks. And he's not dodging an Omni-Blast. Or even a huge Force Wave for that matter. End of story.

Kenobi has a greater force showing than Savage. He matched Anakin's TK. And Anakin did this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8R_8AJkHcA
3:51

Now you've just lost it. We've flat out seen Opress chuck Kenobi around with the Force. And he has much greater feats.

Kenobi matching Vader's Force push was clearly a low feat for Vader. Simply because if Vader was that weak with the Force, then Count Dooku would have easily Force Choked him on any of the mutiple times they've fought.

There's nothing to suggest Obi-Wan could do the Jedi Statue feat. Or even anything close to that.

Except you know matching his TK, and them both being flown back the exact same distance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
People have this misconception that the only combat training Savage ever had was a few weeks training from Dooku. That's not true at all.

Savage was from a warrior tribe so also has a lifetime of experience at fighting. In fact the guy was able to kill a Jedi Master with no training from Count Dooku whatsoever.

But what gives him the definitive advantage over Grievous is his Raw Power in the Force. The training he's had from Count Dooku and will get from from Darth Maul is honing that Raw Force power he has.

Anyway Ventress also had much more training from Count Dooku than Opress did, and yet Opress battered her (and she battered Grievous just 3 episodes earlier). So the point's moot anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It might as well be considering how Dooku treated him in their training session

Opress isn't a fencer. So certainly wasn't going to compete in a pure fencing match with The Master Fencer without any force training.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and in the fight.

Yeah any Noob can floor Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Lol wut? That was not a complete tooling. Grievous was overwhelming Kenobi's defenses at one point. What the hell do you mean tools with the force? Getting off one force push is not a tooling.

No he hit him by surprise with a third arm.

LOL The Force Push had him running like a girl. And it was 2 Force pushes. And guess what? He didn't dodge either.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uhhh based on him losing to early Clone Wars Ventress who was casually defeated by two-sabered Grievous. Then he went on to push back 4 sabered Grievous.

Uhhhhh Fisto's fight with Grievous was also early CW. Grievous was never a match for Ventress. He's not even a match for Eeth Koth. So that was obviously a low showing for Ventress. The T-Canon CW series has clarified the correct power levels for us.

And Opress defeated Ventress just 3 episodes after she defeated Grievous anyway. So you have no point.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I hope you are joking. Force wise Corobb's TK can peal up durasteel plates and blow away dozens of Super Battle droids. And Shaak Ti made a Dark Side nexus her *****. Shaak Ti would dominate Savage Opress.

Your beyond help if you actually think that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes it does. That's exactly what it means. If she though she could beat him in a fair fight she would have disarmed him and had Corobb and the other Jedi Master secure the Chancellor.

No because she's intimidated by him after only having fought him when she was exhausted.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kenobi has a greater force showing than Savage. He matched Anakin's TK. And Anakin did this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8R_8AJkHcA
3:51

Yeah Anakin also Force Waved the Son and Daughter to the ground, so I guess Obi-Wan can too right??? Since he stalemated a force push with him??

You seem to be going to absolutely ridiculous levels to try and prove pretty much everyone is better than Opress in every way.

The guy is a Beast who battered Ventress, Floored Dooku at one point, and Force Waved Anakin and Obi-Wan all over the place. That's all the evidence you need of his power.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That is such silly logic. We've seen Savage chuck Dooku across the room as well. You know the same Dooku who repeatedly humiliates him with the force.

Except Dooku has force choked him and made him his ***** with the force. So your logic fails.

LOL and what this is supposed to prove Opress is weaker than Obi-Wan and Shaak Ti in the Force???

To your first point Dooku was taken by surprise by Opress and then was probably tired from fighting both him and Ventress.

As for your second point it was before Opress had any Force training. And you know that! Your just going to ridiculous levels to lowball Opress.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except you know matching his TK, and them both being flown back the exact same distance.

So I guess Obi-Wan can Force Wave the Son and Daughter into submission since that's what Anakin did and he did stalemate Anakin in a Force Push right????

Anakin's Force TK feats are possibly the most inconsistent out of all the characters in the Mythos. So you have no point.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Then why has Grievous killed so many jedi if force powers are so important.

They have to be powerful with the Force to defeat him. I never denied that. But Obi-Wan always tools him with the Force. And Opress's TK is miles more powerful than Obi-Wan's.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
You make it sound like Grievous is a weakling. He was leader of the Kaleesh army during the Huk War and the Supreme Commander of the Armies of the Confederacy now. He beat both Durge and Assage for that title in the comics.

He can't defeat the most powerful Jedi Masters.

Ventress has defeated a better trained Grievous without even using any Force TK. 3 episodes later Opress beat her down without using any Force TK either. And when Force TK does come into the equation Ventress would destroy Grievous, and Opress TK > Ventress's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
-snip-
I am going to ignore canon for the sake of my arguments and only take into account TCW's depiction of Grievous.
-snip-

Concession accepted.
Also you really think Shaak Ti would lose to Savage Opress?