Originally posted by Mizukage YodaConcession accepted.
Also you really think Shaak Ti would lose to Savage Opress?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What??
Exactly what canon did I ignore??
Your the one who keeps ignoring T-Canon proof that Opress > Ventress > Grievous.
And that Obi-Wan's Force TK defeats Grievous EVERY TIME he uses it on him, and Opress's TK >> Obi-Wan's.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
[B]Concession accepted.
Also you really think Shaak Ti would lose to Savage Opress?
What exaactly has she done to show she's even a match for Ventress let alone Opress??
Forget it. YOU KEEP IGNORING CANON.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What??Exactly what canon did I ignore??
Your the one who keeps ignoring T-Canon proof that Opress > Ventress > Grievous.
And that Obi-Wan's Force TK defeats Grievous EVERY TIME he uses it on him, and Opress's TK >> Obi-Wan's.
A>B>C logic doesn't work. This isn't DBZ dude. Battles in Star Wars are circumstantial.
If we want to go by A>B>C logic then
Kenobi>=Maul+Savage>Maul>Kenobi
You ignore all of Grievous' fights and feats in the original Clone Wars, and ignore all of Grievous' fights in the comics and novels.
What exaactly has she done to show she's even a match for Ventress let alone Opress??
Forget it. YOU KEEP IGNORING CANON. [/B]
How about you play/read TFU, or watch other material aside from TCW. Shaak Ti is hyped by Kenobi, the ROTS novel and TFU.
All you keep saying is
SAVAGE HAS KILLED AND DUELED COUNCIL MEMBERS. Who cares if they were on the council if they were featless. Coleman Trebor got killed by 3 blaster shots by Jango Fett. Does that mean Fett could defeat Grievous on an even playing field? No.
Adi Gallia is featless. The only feat she has is dueling on par with 2 sabered Grievous.
And @ your statement that the Jedi were exhausted so it wasn't a fair fight...dude it was a 5 on 1 and you say Grievous was the one who was being unfair.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A>B>C logic doesn't work. This isn't DBZ dude. Battles in Star Wars are circumstantial.
If we want to go by A>B>C logic then
Kenobi>=Maul+Savage>Maul>KenobiYou ignore all of Grievous' fights and feats in the original Clone Wars, and ignore all of Grievous' fights in the comics and novels.
Dominate Galen Marek in sabers and then proceed to whoop on him in the force. Not to mention taming Felucia a DARK SIDE NEXUS. Oh and escaping the capital of the empire when the Great Jedi Purge was at it's height.
How about you play/read TFU, or watch other material aside from TCW. Shaak Ti is hyped by Kenobi, the ROTS novel and TFU.
All you keep saying is
SAVAGE HAS KILLED AND DUELED COUNCIL MEMBERS. Who cares if they were on the council if they were featless. Coleman Trebor got killed by 3 blaster shots by Jango Fett. Does that mean Fett could defeat Grievous on an even playing field? No.
Adi Gallia is featless. The only feat she has is dueling on par with 2 sabered Grievous.And @ your statement that the Jedi were exhausted so it wasn't a fair fight...dude it was a [B]5 on 1
and you say Grievous was the one who was being unfair. [/B]
Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
I think that Grievous is automatically underestimated in threads just because he doesn't use the Force. If anyone has proven that Force isn't everything in a fight, it's Grievous.
Also the Maul brother wank is really getting out of hand. Savage is powerful but to say that he can stomp Grievous no contest is taking it far. He is no Mace Windu and he certainly is no Count Dooku when it comes to the force.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also the Maul brother wank is really getting out of hand. Savage is powerful but to say that he can stomp Grievous no contest is taking it far. He is no Mace Windu and he certainly is no Count Dooku when it comes to the force.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also the Maul brother wank is really getting out of hand. Savage is powerful but to say that he can stomp Grievous no contest is taking it far. He is no Mace Windu and he certainly is no Count Dooku when it comes to the force.
Agreed. Grievous takes Sabers and all out. He will be able to deal with Savage's physical strenght well, one of Savage's main strenghts.
Well I'm personally finding the continued Grievous wankage over the top. Especially since he's been beaten by every single Master he's faced in TCW series.
Dooku even says for Grievous to defeat a true Jedi MASTER would be a real accomplishment for him.
And what Jedi has defeated Opress? Just Obi-Wan and even that was only like the 4th or 5th time he fought Obi-Wan.
So I'm sorry to all you Grievous lovers, but the days of him being some bad ass Jedi Killer are gone.
Opress is a much more dangerous Jedi Killer (in direct combat that is).
We also have clear proof from the most recent episodes of the show that Opress > Ventress > Grievous.
And if Grievous is such a bad ass then why did Dooku want to use Opress to help him kill Sidious instead of using Grievous?? That would make no sense if what you guys are trying to claim was true.
Also Misukage Yoda, why were you going on about what an amazing feat Obi-Wan accomplishes in fighting off Maul and Savage if you think Savage is some weakling whose below Grievous even?? If that was true Kenobi would have just Force pushed Opress out of commision, and he would have been almost a non-factor in Sabers. Making Obi-Wan's feat nothing special at all.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I'm personally finding the continued Grievous wankage over the top. Especially since he's been beaten by every single Master he's faced in TCW series.Dooku even says for Grievous to defeat a true Jedi MASTER would be a real accomplishment for him.
And what Jedi has defeated Opress? Just Obi-Wan and even that was only like the 4th or 5th time he fought Obi-Wan.
So I'm sorry to all you Grievous lovers, but the days of him being some bad ass Jedi Killer are gone.
Opress is a much more dangerous Jedi Killer (in direct combat that is).
We also have clear proof from the most recent episodes of the show that Opress > Ventress > Grievous.
And if Grievous is such a bad ass then why did Dooku want to use Opress to help him kill Sidious instead of using Grievous?? That would make no sense if what you guys are trying to claim was true.
Also Misukage Yoda, why were you going on about what an amazing feat Obi-Wan accomplishes in fighting off Maul and Savage if you think Savage is some weakling whose below Grievous even?? If that was true Kenobi would have just Force pushed Opress out of commision, and he would have been almost a non-factor in Sabers. Making Obi-Wan's feat nothing special at all.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I'm personally finding the continued Grievous wankage over the top. Especially since he's been beaten by every single Master he's faced in TCW series.
Dooku even says for Grievous to defeat a true Jedi MASTER would be a real accomplishment for him.
And what Jedi has defeated Opress? Just Obi-Wan and even that was only like the 4th or 5th time he fought Obi-Wan.
So I'm sorry to all you Grievous lovers, but the days of him being some bad ass Jedi Killer are gone.
Opress is a much more dangerous Jedi Killer (in direct combat that is).
We also have clear proof from the most recent episodes of the show that Opress > Ventress > Grievous.
And if Grievous is such a bad ass then why did Dooku want to use Opress to help him kill Sidious instead of using Grievous?? That would make no sense if what you guys are trying to claim was true.
He was going to use Ventress to try and kill Sidious before he used Savage. And yet you just said that Opress>Ventress.
That's silly logic. It's rather clear that any plan of taking out Sidious would take years. Neither Opress and Dooku nor Ventress and Dooku would have a chance in hell of defeating Sidious. He'd crush Ventress in an instance
Also Misukage Yoda, why were you going on about what an amazing feat Obi-Wan accomplishes in fighting off Maul and Savage if you think Savage is some weakling whose below Grievous even?? If that was true Kenobi would have just Force pushed Opress out of commision, and he would have been almost a non-factor in Sabers. Making Obi-Wan's feat nothing special at all.
Silly logic and reasoning. Kenobi's feat would have been impressive if he pwnd Ventress and Grievous as well. Why? Because those are all people who prior to that episode were believed to be on Kenobi's level in raw sabers.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's because the directors of TCW series don't give a shit about the established powerscale.
Doesn't matter if you like it or not. TCW is T-Canon so takes precedence in terms of power scales over all the C-Canon evidence, especially those which pre-date TCW Series.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Grievous has bested plenty of Masters in the past. Including members of the Council. That being said he needs the factors of fear, surprise, or intimidation. Grievous is a master strategist though, and is a way smarter fighter than Opress is.
This I agree with.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You say this like he's faced off against all the best duelists of the order. Make no mistake, he is no Grievous. Grievous has faced off against nearly every master duelist in the order sans Yoda himself.
He was soundly beaten by Ventress in Sabers. Imagine if she used the Force as well she would have pretty much stomped. So anyone more powerful than her is going to defeat him without too much trouble. And that includes Opress whose greater than Ventress in Close Combat and in the Force.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Opress is a savage beast. A brute with no strategy whatsoever, in a 1v1 with a master strategist and cunning warrior like Grievous, the General would be at an advantage because Savage has neither Maul nor Ventress to help him.
Don't see how that will help when Opress is throwing him around with the Force. And it's not like he can't hold his own in Sabers either. Unless Grievous has help I don't see what he could do. Take him by surprise maybe? Just Maybe.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Will you please stop with this A>B>C logic bullshit.
We also have Ventress in earlier episodes calling Grievous 'my lord' and addessing him as her better. Why? Because that was around the time when Grievous whooped on her ass.
And yet that was around the time Grievous lost to Kit Fisto. So by that logic.
Kit Fisto>Grievous>Early CW Asajj
and yet the same early CW Ventress shat all over Fisto. A>B>C logic does not work in Star Wars.
I've heard this crap before. Her calling him Lord means nothing except Dooku put him in charge. I mean Vader took orders from Tarkin is that supposed to mean Tarkin can take Vader in a fight?! LOL.
And Grievous says to her after that "Your probably my equal in combat", to which she says "Dooku may have taught you to swing a Saber but don't think that makes us equals!"
Grievous beating Ventress was obviously a low showing for her! I mean unless you think Eeth Koth > Ventress! TCW series power scales take priority.
And A>B>C is very relevant here. When Ventress fought Grievous in CW it was a more powerful Ventress and a better trained Grievous, and the fight shortly before Opress battered Ventress.
Opress is more powerful than Ventress who is more powerful than Grievous. And that is the power scale mid-late CW.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He was going to use Ventress to try and kill Sidious before he used Savage. And yet you just said that Opress>Ventress.
That's silly logic. It's rather clear that any plan of taking out Sidious would take years. Neither Opress and Dooku nor Ventress and Dooku would have a chance in hell of defeating Sidious. He'd crush Ventress in an instance
He was never going to use Grievous. That's for sure.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Silly logic and reasoning. Kenobi's feat would have been impressive if he pwnd Ventress and Grievous as well. Why? Because those are all people who prior to that episode were believed to be on Kenobi's level in raw sabers.
If Kenobi fought off Ventress and Grievous and chopped up Grievous but then had Ventress knocking him out with the Force, it really wouldn't have been that Uber at all. Especially considering Ventress has fought off Obi-Wan and Anakin on multiple occassions.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Doesn't matter if you like it or not. TCW is T-Canon so takes precedence in terms of power scales over all the C-Canon evidence, especially those which pre-date TCW Series.
It's all about interpretation.
He was soundly beaten by Ventress in Sabers. Imagine if she used the Force as well she would have pretty much stomped. So anyone more powerful than her is going to defeat him without too much trouble. And that includes Opress whose greater than Ventress in Close Combat and in the Force.
Soundly? Disarming Grievous of 1 of his sabers is hardly soundly defeating him.
Don't see how that will help when Opress is throwing him around with the Force. And it's not like he can't hold his own in Sabers either. Unless Grievous has help I don't see what he could do. Take him by surprise maybe? Just Maybe.
Grievous using the unorthodox, using repulsorlifts and using 5 sabers with his feet, retreating then ambushing, dodging and tanking Force pushes.
I've heard this crap before. Her calling him Lord means nothing except Dooku put him in charge. I mean Vader took orders from Tarkin is that supposed to mean Tarkin can take Vader in a fight?! LOL.
And Grievous says to her after that "Your probably my equal in combat", to which she says "Dooku may have taught you to swing a Saber but don't think that makes us equals!"
Grievous beating Ventress was obviously a low showing for her! I mean unless you think Eeth Koth > Ventress! TCW series power scales take priority.
And A>B>C is very relevant here. When Ventress fought Grievous in CW it was a more powerful Ventress and a better trained Grievous, and the fight shortly before Opress battered Ventress.
No because it's circular logic. And it's faulty. If that's all you have you might as well conceed now.
Opress is more powerful than Ventress who is more powerful than Grievous. And that is the power scale mid-late CW.
I am not convinced Ventress is weaker than Savage. And duels don't work like that unless it's a Master duelist like Yoda or Sidious. Yoda, Dooku, Mace, and Sidious are on a different tier than the rest of the PT duelists. The rest are fair game in vs. matches.
He was never going to use Grievous. That's for sure.
If Kenobi fought off Ventress and Grievous and chopped up Grievous but then had Ventress knocking him out with the Force, it really wouldn't have been that Uber at all. Especially considering Ventress has fought off Obi-Wan and Anakin on multiple occassions. [/QUOTE]
Uhh yes it would have. If Kenobi could guard against 4 sabered Grievous and Jar'Kai Ventress at once and succeed in disarming the General of one of his lightsabers and breaking his leg would certainly be impressive.
Don't be naive Ventress has never been able to fight against a serious, focused Kenobi and Skywalker and come out anywhere close to being on top.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's all about interpretation.Soundly? Disarming Grievous of 1 of his sabers is hardly soundly defeating him.
Thank You! And He did defeat both Durge and Assage together for the title of Supreme Commander!Grievous using the unorthodox, using repulsorlifts and using 5 sabers with his feet, retreating then ambushing, dodging and tanking Force pushes.
It's not crap. It's fact that Grievous>Early CW Ventress.
That was in a later episode kid.
Will you please get it through your skull that Ventress got stronger through the Clone Wars? Yes Ventress is weaker than Eeth Koth after Dooku first found her. She got her ass handed to her by PADAWAN Anakin.
Grievous vs Padawan Anakin would have been fun to see.No because it's circular logic. And it's faulty. If that's all you have you might as well conceed now.
I am not convinced Ventress is weaker than Savage. And duels don't work like that unless it's a Master duelist like Yoda or Sidious. Yoda, Dooku, Mace, and Sidious are on a different tier than the rest of the PT duelists. The rest are fair game in vs. matches.
No shit. Grievous wasn't a Sith.
If Kenobi fought off Ventress and Grievous and chopped up Grievous but then had Ventress knocking him out with the Force, it really wouldn't have been that Uber at all. Especially considering Ventress has fought off Obi-Wan and Anakin on multiple occassions.
Uhh yes it would have. If Kenobi could guard against 4 sabered Grievous and Jar'Kai Ventress at once and succeed in disarming the General of one of his lightsabers and breaking his leg would certainly be impressive.
Don't be naive Ventress has never been able to fight against a serious, focused Kenobi and Skywalker and come out anywhere close to being on top. [/QUOTE]
I don't get why people still speculate that Opress lacks saber skills and wins only because of strength. His defense skills are quite good, he never failed to block a lightsaber attack. Even, when Kenobi used unexpected Jarkaj Ataru that was overwhelming and driving back even Maul, Opress still blocked and dodged all attacks apart from kicks.
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaSoundly? Disarming Grievous of 1 of his sabers is hardly soundly defeating him.
Lol what? Chopping off his arm putting him to the ground with weapons deignited, having him at her mercy is not a sound defeat??
And that was without even using any Force TK.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No because it's circular logic. And it's faulty. If that's all you have you might as well conceed now.
Of course it works. Ventress proves herself to be Grievous superior in Saber combat, and Opress proved himself to be Ventress's superior in Saber combat.
And this was all in the same period of the CW. The Ventress/Opress fight was only a short time after the Ventress/Grievous fight.
The only possible argument you could use is that Ventress would have fought better with both her Sabers. And I'm sure she would. But I seriously doubt it would make such a huge difference that it would shift from Opress Battering Ventress to Ventress defeating Opress.
And the when Force TK comes into it Opress again is clearly superior to Ventress and Grievous really won't stand a chance against either of them.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No shit. Grievous wasn't a Sith.
As if Dooku would give a crap about that if he thought Grievous would be better suited to help him defeat Sidious.
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaUhh yes it would have. If Kenobi could guard against 4 sabered Grievous and Jar'Kai Ventress at once and succeed in disarming the General of one of his lightsabers and breaking his leg would certainly be impressive.
Don't be naive Ventress has never been able to fight against a serious, focused Kenobi and Skywalker and come out anywhere close to being on top.
It would have been some what impressive if he did it without resorting to the Force.
Still fact is in an all out he would just keep force tossing Grievous aside and focusing on Ventress. Wouldn't have been all that amazing at all.
Maul and Opress >> Ventress and Grievous.
So as it was Obi-Wan's feat WAS very Impressive, but only due to the opponents being so obviously Powerful.
Oh and btw an enraged Ventress has knocked out Obi-Wan in 7 seconds while fighting off Anakin.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol what? Chopping off his arm putting him to the ground with weapons deignited, having him at her mercy is not a sound defeat??
And that was without even using any Force TK.
Of course it works. Ventress proves herself to be Grievous superior in Saber combat, and Opress proved himself to be Ventress's superior in Saber combat.
Okay maybe I should use an example since this seems to be over your head.
Trevor Berbick beat Muhammad Ali back in '89 at the "Drama in the Bahamas."
Ali beat George Foreman.
That does not magically mean that Berbick can automatically pwn George Foreman. If you can't apply that logic to boxing, you can't apply that silly logic to lightsaber battles
And this was all in the same period of the CW. The Ventress/Opress fight was only a short time after the Ventress/Grievous fight.
The only possible argument you could use is that Ventress would have fought better with both her Sabers. And I'm sure she would. But I seriously doubt it would make such a huge difference that it would shift from Opress Battering Ventress to Ventress defeating Opress.
And the when Force TK comes into it Opress again is clearly superior to Ventress and Grievous really won't stand a chance against either of them.
As if Dooku would give a crap about that if he thought Grievous would be better suited to help him defeat Sidious.
It would have been some what impressive if he did it without resorting to the Force.Still fact is in an all out he would just keep force tossing Grievous aside and focusing on Ventress. Wouldn't have been all that amazing at all.
Maul and Opress >> Ventress and Grievous.
So as it was Obi-Wan's feat WAS very Impressive, but only due to the opponents being so obviously Powerful.
Oh and btw an enraged Ventress has knocked out Obi-Wan in 7 seconds while fighting off Anakin. [/B]
No it would have been impressive, and you are implying he could not do that when fighting Savage. If he can consistently land in force enhanced kicks he can land in a force push.
I don't know the circumstances for that fight, but I doubt Kenobi or Anakin were in the states of mind like Kenobi was when fighting Savage and Maul.
Originally posted by Arhael
I don't get why people still speculate that Opress lacks saber skills and wins only because of strength. ...he never failed to block a lightsaber attack. Even, when Kenobi used unexpected Jarkaj Ataru that was overwhelming and driving back even Maul, Opress still blocked and dodged all attacks apart from kicks.
Uhm, he lost an arm. The cause? A lightsaber. He failed to block it.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Uhm, he lost an arm. The cause? A lightsaber. He failed to block it.