Sids, Dooku, Vader vs Malgus, Revan, Bane

Originally posted by Nephthys
You have some trouble getting your points across and sometimes use some extremely weak evidence to form arguments,

I agree in sentiment, but must correct your adjectives.

Originally posted by Nephthys, corrected by The_Tempest
You have somegeneral trouble getting your points across and sometimesgenerally use some extremely weak evidence to form arguments,

This.

It's nothing personal, LeGenD. Your linguistic limitations are apparent and easily dealt with. Not everybody can master two languages to the extent Borbarad/Nai has.

It's the routine methodological errors you make that keep me from being interested in what you have to say.

For example, if I were to say that "[source X] says Dooku is one of the most powerful Jedi of all time," you'd respond with "Don't be so sure. Darth Malgus used EXTREMELY POWERFUL Force lightning and Force whirlwind" or something equally zany.

I'm not sure how to explain your error other than that what you have to say generally fails to refute any argument and exists only to remind people that you really like KotOR and its characters.

And a big lol @ you handling Lightsnake

Meany. >:[

Nothing I said was mean.

I'm sure he's a nice guy.

You called him the most retarded poster in SWVF history. Worse than Darth Ray Park?! You jammy ****er, how is that not a meany thing to say?!!!!!!!!

SPEEDBLITZ!!!

Sidious wins.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This.

It's nothing personal, LeGenD. Your linguistic limitations are apparent and easily dealt with. Not everybody can master two languages to the extent Borbarad/Nai has.

Proving me wrong in a debate is one thing; belittling is another.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's the routine methodological errors you make that keep me from being interested in what you have to say.

For example, if I were to say that "[source X] says Dooku is one of the most powerful Jedi of all time," you'd respond with "Don't be so sure. Darth Malgus used EXTREMELY POWERFUL Force lightning and Force whirlwind" or something equally zany.

I'm not sure how to explain your error other than that what you have to say generally fails to refute any argument and exists only to remind people that you really like KotOR and its characters.

Yes, you do cite sources to support your points. But so do I. In addition, their are some issues such as; interpretation of sources; and retcons.

Debater X may cite a 2003 source to support his/her argument. Debater Y may cite a 2012 source to support his/her counter-argument. In the end, it depends upon how the debate is settled. Unfortunately, many debates end-up useless due to lack of flexibility from debaters involved.

I never attempt to hide my liking of KoTOR era lore. This lore got me hooked to Star Wars mythos; more-so then the works of GL. However, I also try to keep my bias/likings in check and do not argue for a KoTOR era character without sufficient reasoning. Unfortunately, PT/OT fanbase dislikes me for even attempting to debate in favor for KoTOR era characters.

I fully realize that if I will join PT/OT fanbase, my image will be redeemed in front of this fanbase. To hell with my choices, yeah?

What I find ironic is that comments like these are never ridiculed;

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
SPEEDBLITZ!!!

Sidious wins.

Of-course! I forgot that Darth Malgus, Darth Revan and Darth Bane are Sith equivalents of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin.

In-fact, I am not surprised. All shaming tactics are reserved for the fans of KoTOR era lore.

@Sidious 66 (No pun intended)

You do often make good points. However, sometimes, you do make funny points like this one.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And a big lol @ you handling Lightsnake

At least, Neph is fair enough in his take on things. He appreciates well-constructed points of mine.

Lightsnake is a good debater. But he is overhyped in terms of reasoning abilities. In recent times, I have corrected him on many points with help from canonical sources. I don't have lot of time to dig out the threads to prove my point here. If you have missed these debates, tough for you. But do not judge on the basis of limited knowledge. And don't get personal.

I have debated in SWTOR official forums as well and some members of that community have appreciated my input there due to my habit of using sources to support my arguments. Lot of people just debate casually on this subject. This shows that their is nothing significantly wrong with me but their is something very wrong with those who dislike me in KMC.

Their is one debater in KMC whom I really find as extremely competent. And he is Nai. I often learn something new from him. His reasoning skills are so great that he can make others speechless.

To be fair, he did nail that impression of you. 😆

But yeah, you're alright. 👆

The problem Legend, at least from my perspective, is the character you championed were generally featless. As such, you would tend to make numerous assumptions and leaps. Yes, they were often logical but they were still assumptions and not facts.

With the advent of the TOR era material your arguments have increased dramatically. I don't think anyone here has a problem with you going against the grain. Heck, if no one did argue for what they believed, most would still be hailing Ragnos as the supreme master of the force. The "hostility", at least from what I see, stems from your past (and I mean a few years back) arguments. Which, admittedly, isn't all that fair.

BTW, what is your username on the SWTOR forums? I used to argue on those forums until the game was released.

For my part, this has little to do with his past. Relationships at KMC tend ever-evolving: for example, Nebaris used to annoy the shit out of me, then I began to respect him.

That said, I've found the quality of his arguments to have remained the same. That he now has some feats to hurl at the opposition instead of none is irrelevant when they're applied horribly.

The things I've bothered to read from him in recent times still highlight that problem you mention: rife with assumptions and extraordinary leaps.

I'm sure he's a nice guy and, like I said, it's nothing personal. He's just one of the few debaters whom I genuinely have little to no interest in reading or engaging.

That's the last I'll say on the subject publicly.

How can you gauge the quality of his arguments if you refuse to read them?

Originally posted by ares834
BTW, what is your username on the SWTOR forums? I used to argue on those forums until the game was released.

Its the same here.

Originally posted by ares834
The problem Legend, at least from my perspective, is the character you championed were generally featless. As such, you would tend to make numerous assumptions and leaps. Yes, they were often logical but they were still assumptions and not facts.

With the advent of the TOR era material your arguments have increased dramatically. I don't think anyone here has a problem with you going against the grain. Heck, if no one did argue for what they believed, most would still be hailing Ragnos as the supreme master of the force. The "hostility", at least from what I see, stems from your past (and I mean a few years back) arguments. Which, admittedly, isn't all that fair.

Just about a week ago he was claiming that Revan can take on Mace, Kolar, Fisto, and Tiin all at once. I don't see much change in his arguments.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Of-course! I forgot that Darth Malgus, Darth Revan and Darth Bane are Sith equivalents of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin.

In-fact, I am not surprised. All shaming tactics are reserved for the fans of KoTOR era lore.

@Sidious 66 (No pun intended)

You do often make good points. However, sometimes, you do make funny points like this one.

To be real with you, I wasn't actually being serious. It didn't really matter who Sidious' opponents were in this thread, as I would have said the same thing regardless. I wasn't intending to get a debate going, I was just being silly.

But come to think about it, I don't see how Revan or Malgus can prevent Sidious from blitzing them. Perhaps you can change my mind by listing some good quality saber and speed feats from them (in Revan's case, I'm almost positive that you can't list anything that will change my mind). But I'm not going to assume they are better saber duelists than someone like Fisto just 'cause you say so. Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that they are superior force users than any of the three jedi masters that Sidious blitzed, but unless they can use the force to at least approach Sidious in speed, then they are going down pretty quick.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How can you gauge the quality of his arguments if you refuse to read them?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The things I've bothered to read from him in recent times

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But come to think about it, I don't see how Revan or Malgus can prevent Sidious from blitzing them. Perhaps you can change my mind by listing some good quality saber and speed feats from them (in Revan's case, I'm almost positive that you can't list anything that will change my mind). But I'm not going to assume they are better saber duelists than someone like Fisto just 'cause you say so. Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that they are superior force users than any of the three jedi masters that Sidious blitzed, but unless they can use the force to at least approach Sidious in speed, then they are going down pretty quick.

So you assume they are on par or worse than Fisto?

Well, if Fisto were to fight either one of them, I would say he would likely lose a majority. They seem to be superior force users. Although if you count the CW mini series, Fisto does have some pretty good force feats. But I've seen nothing from them that suggests they are better saber duelists than Fisto.

Team 1 via feats wins with moderate difficulty, Team 1 with powerscaling wins with high difficulty.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

To be real with you, I wasn't actually being serious.

That was difficult to tell. Since that is usually your "serious" answer in pretty much all threads concerning Sidious: "Sidious Speed Blitz"

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That was difficult to tell. Since that is usually your "serious" answer in pretty much all threads concerning Sidious: "Sidious Speed Blitz"

Really? Name them, please.

Malgus is good but he's not Bane or Vader level. Not when a Padawan Satele (despite how great she is) gave him trouble. I don't even think he could beat Revan more times than not.

Team 1 7/10.

Originally posted by ares834
The problem Legend, at least from my perspective, is the character you championed were generally featless. As such, you would tend to make numerous assumptions and leaps. Yes, they were often logical but they were still assumptions and not facts.

Feats are important to consider but competency of a character is not decided on the basis of feats only, IMO. One can focus on the accomplishments as well in case of shortage of sources/details.

IMO, their are several important ways to determine the skills of a character;

1. How others perceive the character
2. Feats of the character
3. Accomplishments of the character
4. Assessment of accomplishments of opponents whom the character in question fought

A reasonable assessment can be formed about the skills of a character, if analyzed on all of these fronts. This is how I analyzed Revan.

Originally posted by ares834
With the advent of the TOR era material your arguments have increased dramatically. I don't think anyone here has a problem with you going against the grain. Heck, if no one did argue for what they believed, most would still be hailing Ragnos as the supreme master of the force. The "hostility", at least from what I see, stems from your past (and I mean a few years back) arguments. Which, admittedly, isn't all that fair.

I understand that I have my share of biases but almost everybody is guilty of this. Still I attempt to not cross limits and keep an open mind.

Critics do not want to accept that their is legitimacy in many of my arguments (not all but plenty still). Difference of opinion is one thing but not conceding where necessary is another.

Originally posted by ares834
BTW, what is your username on the SWTOR forums? I used to argue on those forums until the game was released.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just about a week ago he was claiming that Revan can take on Mace, Kolar, Fisto, and Tiin all at once. I don't see much change in his arguments.

Revan then suddenly Force Leap at the back of Mace and Company. Upon touching thr ground, Revan then suddenly unleashes a powerful blast of energy that sends Mace & Company packing outside the window of the Chancellor's office.

Revan: "Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead."

---------------

Jokes aside, Revan (Jedi Master) is very competent and powerful Force-wielder. He is recognized as one of the Jedi Order's greatest champions. More interestingly; he is unpredicatable and extremely dangerous.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
To be real with you, I wasn't actually being serious. It didn't really matter who Sidious' opponents were in this thread, as I would have said the same thing regardless. I wasn't intending to get a debate going, I was just being silly.

But come to think about it, I don't see how Revan or Malgus can prevent Sidious from blitzing them. Perhaps you can change my mind by listing some good quality saber and speed feats from them (in Revan's case, I'm almost positive that you can't list anything that will change my mind). But I'm not going to assume they are better saber duelists than someone like Fisto just 'cause you say so. Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that they are superior force users than any of the three jedi masters that Sidious blitzed, but unless they can use the force to at least approach Sidious in speed, then they are going down pretty quick.

I know that Sidious is also extremely fast; he was fast even by Jedi standards. However, he still struggled against other formidable duelists such as Mace, Yoda and Luke. Therefore, Sidious has limits too.

As far as Revan is concerned, he was no slouch in dueling arts either. He was competent in both offensive and defensive dueling arts. I suspect that he was unorthodox in lightsaber dueling arts. However, his combat postures seen to be similar to that of Sidious and Gallen. Revan's dueling abilities are not just defined by his skills with the blade but he combines them with his other talents to make him highly effective in dueling situations.

Now try to analyze following:-

Case 1:

Her shoulders slumped and she let out a sigh of resignation. [I]"Kill them both."

Revan was in motion, his lightsaber flashing to life, before the words had finished spilling from her mouth. As Veela and two of the others—reacting slightly faster than the rest—fired their blasters, the green blade transformed into a spinning, twirling blur as he used it to deflect their bolts back in the direction of the shooters.[/I]

Revan' reaction time seems to be less then a second.

Not convinced?

Case 2:

Check this image:

NOTE: Revan have already struck a killing blow before others could react. Again, Revan' reaction time is extremely fast.

------------------------------

And now a glimpse of speed:

Veela and two of the others—reacting slightly faster than the rest—fired their blasters, the green blade transformed into a spinning, twirling blur as he used it to deflect their bolts back in the direction of the shooters.

I don't know that how many Strikes-Per-Second (SPS) this is but it seems to be plenty because blur is kind of motion that cannot be clearly witnessed; it so fast.

And;

Their attention drawn for just an instant by the body of their leader tumbling to the floor, the two remaining Mandalorians faltered. Revan used that moment to unleash a sidearm throw of his lightsaber. The blade went spinning out in a wide arcing path that ended both their lives before they could move.

Revan adeptly caught his lightsaber by its hilt as it returned to his hand, then slowly stood up straight, his ears still ringing.

So in an instant, Revan cut-down two Mandalorians with a Saber Throw attack. In short, Revan is clearly capable of blitzing his adversaries.

------------------------------

But how about some lightsaber dueling?

One of the guards battling Meetra broke off and tried to cut Revan off. The Jedi gathered himself and leapt high in the air, tucking his knees in tight to somersault over his opponent. The guard reacted to the unexpected move a fraction too slowly, his electrostaff slicing through the air above his head and missing Revan by only a few centimeters. Revan landed on the ground and wheeled around to face the other man. He thrust out with the Force, the impact hitting the soldier square in the chest. Instead of sending him flying, it only staggered him back half a step—this close to the Emperor they were sworn to protect, the guards were able to draw on his power to protect themselves.

Still, the slight stumble gave Revan enough time to draw his lightsaber and go on the offensive. He came in with a high, overhand chop—an obvious feint meant to draw the defenses of his opponent upward, leaving his legs exposed to a quick follow-up strike.

The guard recognized the familiar ploy, countering it by parrying the overhand chop then quickly dropping his blade low to intercept the inevitable slash at his legs. Only Revan didn't go for his legs. Anticipating that his opponent’s defenses would go low, he kept his blade up high, allowing him to end the battle with a horizontal cut across the man’s suddenly exposed throat.

As apparent from this one fine example of Revan's dueling prowess; you can notice that both Revan's reaction time and precognition abilities are amazing. He also performs acrobatic moves to increase his effectiveness.

------------------------------

So while Sidious can react instantly; so can Revan. Therefore, I highly doubt that Sidious would be able to blitz Revan.

Originally posted by Based
Malgus is good but he's not Bane or Vader level.

I don't understand that how people underestimate this guy.

Originally posted by Based
Not when a Padawan Satele (despite how great she is) gave him trouble. I don't even think he could beat Revan more times than not.

Also, what is up with ranks? You better focus on power and skills. Even during this fight, Malgus actually managed to cut Satele' lightsaber in to two and trapped her with a blow; however, Jace Malcom stepped-in to help her.

S_W_LeGenD
Jokes aside, Revan (Jedi Master) is very competent and powerful Force-wielder. He is recognized as one of the Jedi Order's greatest champions. More interestingly; he is unpredicatable and extremely dangerous.

This is not an adequate response to SIDIOUS66. It is, however, a perfect example of the problem to which I alluded earlier.

This is less an argument for how Revan could defeat Mace and co. than it is a general endorsement of Revan as a fighter.

We're not interested in such things. We know Revan is powerful. What we need to know is what feats he has to suggest he could take on Jedi Masters of this caliber.

S_W_LeGenD
Malgus could duel at such a speed that a (non) Force-wielder found it unlikely to catch-up with his moves.

This is also an inadequate response to SIDIOUS66. Being faster than a non-Force sensitive does not mean that Malgus can't or won't be blitzed by Sidious. You need only look to Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto for proof of that.

S_W_LeGenD
In addition, Malgus have outgunned several opponents (including some Jedi Masters) who were formidable duelists.

Another inadequate response. This does not constitute a favorable comparison between Malgus and Sidious. Nothing you've indicated so far is evidence against the idea that Malgus is anything but fodder for Sidious.

S_W_LeGenD
Furthermore, Malgus' extreme physical strength allowed him to land overwhelming blows.

Yet again, another inadequate response. Malgus's physical strength is not a decisive advantage. Per Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy, Sidious blocked and held a lock with one hand against a two-handed strike from Savage Opress (while simultaneously engaging Maul), who is also prodigiously strong.

You commit similar errors in the rest of your post with Revan. You seem keen on arguing two points: (1) Malgus is not fodder for Sidious and (2) Revan is comparable to Sidious in speed or at least is fast enough to defeat the Jedi arrayed against him here.

You have failed entirely to provide any shred of evidence to suggest this. You need to compare their feats, and in the proper context.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is not an adequate response to SIDIOUS66. It is, however, a perfect example of the problem to which I alluded earlier.

This is less an argument for how Revan could defeat Mace and co. than it is a general endorsement of Revan as a fighter.

We're not interested in such things. We know Revan is powerful. What we need to know is what feats he has to suggest he could take on Jedi Masters of this caliber.

Revan's reaction time is instantaneous and his command of the Force exceptional;

It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met.

You realize whom Meetra Surik has met? She has met some extremely powerful and dangerous Sith Lords and lot of Jedi. However, her assessment is in front of you.

Therefore, their is a good chance that Revan can overwhelm the Jedi Strike Team (in question) with his Force powers and prevent them from taking him out with their blades; none of the Jedi that form this Jedi Strike Team are noted for having exceptional command of the Force; these Jedi are rather noted for their proficiency in bladework, but among them, Mace is the only Jedi whose reaction time seemed to be above average, so I don't think that the other 3 would stand-up to Revan' assaults at all. Mace is the only individual who can make difference here but he can also be overwhelmed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is also an inadequate response to SIDIOUS66. Being faster than a non-Force sensitive does not mean that Malgus can't or won't be blitzed by Sidious. You need only look to Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto for proof of that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Another inadequate response. This does not constitute a favorable comparison between Malgus and Sidious. Nothing you've indicated so far is evidence against the idea that Malgus is anything but fodder for Sidious.

Yet again, another inadequate response. Malgus's physical strength is not a decisive advantage. Per Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy, Sidious blocked and held a lock with one hand against a two-handed strike from Savage Opress (while simultaneously engaging Maul), who is also prodigiously strong.

Now watch this video again:http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/return

The Jedi Master (Kao Cen Darach) seems to be extraordinarily talented in lightsaber dueling arts and his command of the Force is also impressive. He handled two prodigiously strong Sith Lords simultaneously for a reasonable amount of time and while doing so, he not just saved his padawan but also knocked out the Sith Master (Inquisitor) in the process. But then Malgus got enraged and virtually nothing was sufficient to stop him. Maglus becomes overwhelming once he gets enraged; he manages to significantly boost his already extraordinary strength in the process.

Several years later, Malgus killed another formidable Jedi Master (Ven Zallow);

Malgus finally spotted Master Zallow ten paces away, whirling, spinning, his green blade a blur of precision and speed. One Sith Warrior fell to him, another. Lord Adraas landed before him, trying to take Malgus's kill for himself. Adraas ducked low and slashed at Zallow's knees. Zallow leapt over the blow and unleashed a blast of energy that sent Adraas skidding on his back side across the hall.

This guy is Lord Adraas (picture shows him shattering a portion of the Jedi Temple floor):

Zallow must have heard Malgus, for he turned, met his eyes. Eleena, too, must have heard Malgus's shouting. She emerged from beind the column, deduced Malgus's intent, and fired several shots at Zallow.

Zallow, his eyes on Malgus throughout, deflected the bolts with his blade and sent them back at Eleena. Two struck her, and as he collapsed, Zallow used a Force blast to drive her body against a Column.

Notice that this Jedi Master comfortably knocked out a skilled firearms user without even looking at her?

And Malgus' angry reaction in response:

Anger refilled him, overcame him. A shout of hate, raw and jagged, burst from his throat. Power went with it, shattering a nearby column and sending a rain of stone shards through the room.

And afterwards, this is how things went;

It was one heck of a fight which ended with Zallow getting impaled by Malgus. Once again, Maglus becomes overwhelming once he gets enraged; he manages to significantly boost his already extraordinary strength in the process.

Not just this, Malgus' command of the Force is no joke either. He is recognized as one of the most powerful predecessors of Sidious in the Book of Sith. READ IT.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You commit similar errors in the rest of your post with Revan. You seem keen on arguing two points: (1) Malgus is not fodder for Sidious and (2) Revan is comparable to Sidious in speed or at least is fast enough to defeat the Jedi arrayed against him here.

For Revan, I don't understand that how you failed to grasp what I just presented? Do you suck at analyzing non-footage materials?

I just proved that Revan's reaction time is instantaneous. None of the 3 Jedi who got blitzed by Sidious seem to have instantaneous reaction. Reaction time is determined by precognition. The 3 Jedi were skilled swordsmen but none of them seem to possess precognition abilities on the level of Revan (who is particularly noted for having remarkable precognition abilities). This is how they failed to anticipate Sidious' moves against them. In comparison, Mace' had better precognition and he sank in to his Vaapad which helped him go toe-to-toe with Sidious. Mace created Vaapad to address his weaknesses.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You have failed entirely to provide any shred of evidence to suggest this. You need to compare their feats, and in the proper context.