Dooku vs. Zannah

Started by The_Tempest11 pages
Originally posted by Rookwood
Well, that makes sense. It would be the same for Dooku or Sidious, if they needed the Force to amplify their actions.

I'm unaware of a scenario where that has been the case for Sidious. The only time I recall Dooku needing to pause and draw on the Force to replenish his energy was during the brief lull in the duel against Anakin in ROTS.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I think it was our great Nephthys, who pointed out a good speed feat for Bane that was excerpted from Rule of Two.

Dynasty of Evil would apparently have us believe that Bane's speed reached a sort of peak in that book, though I can't remember how many people he fought in it.

Those feats were conducted when Bane was wearing orbalisk armor.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

To paraphrase you, "Yoda is noted for his speed." Why should holding his own against Yoda be to Dooku's detriment?

In the end Dooku had to put others in danger to pull Yoda off of him. I wouldn't say he was a true match for Yoda, even at his best.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
In the end Dooku had to put others in danger to pull Yoda off of him. I wouldn't say he was a true match for Yoda, even at his best.

Neither would I. But then, I didn't make that claim.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm unaware of a scenario where that has been the case for Sidious. The only time I recall Dooku needing to pause and draw on the Force to replenish his energy was during the brief lull in the duel against Anakin in ROTS.

If Yoda or Dooku do it, I don't see why it would be any different for Sidious.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Those feats were conducted when Bane was wearing orbalisk armor.

There is nothing to indicate that Bane is any slower during his rain-feat in the next book.

Originally posted by Rookwood
If Yoda or Dooku do it, I don't see why it would be any different for Sidious.

Yoda, being a diminutive alien more than eight centuries old, can barely walk without the Force. Dooku and Sidious are considerably more mobile and not nearly as destitute physically. Obviously they must use the Force to enhance their abilities, but there is no reason to think that Sidious has to stop and gather it in a concerted effort.

Originally posted by Rookwood
There is nothing to indicate that Bane is any slower during his rain-feat in the next book.

Per Rule of Two, orbalisks enhance Bane's attributes. The only thing not indicated is the idea that he's magically as fast without them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yoda, being a diminutive alien more than eight centuries old, can barely walk without the Force. Dooku and Sidious are considerably more mobile and not nearly as destitute physically. Obviously they must use the Force to enhance their abilities, but there is no reason to think that Sidious has to stop and gather it in a concerted effort.

Drawing upon the Force doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ones age or physical stature.

I can remember a number of times in the novels, where Luke would concentrate and draw upon the Force to make a leap, etc.

That's essentially how it is for Force users; both Jedi and Sith.

I don't see how there would be a special exception for Sidious, though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Per Rule of Two, orbalisks enhance Bane's attributes. The only thing not indicated is the idea that he's magically as fast without them.

But didn't the rain-feat exemplify that?

Obralisk enhanced Bane's speed was compared to dozen lightsabers.

Windu's speed was compared to 24 lightsabers. Sidious matched Windu in speed, yet, both Sidious and Dooku had hard time fighting Yoda.

By your mathematics logic Bane is around twice slower than Dooku.

Rookwood
Drawing upon the Force doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ones age or physical stature.

I can remember a number of times in the novels, where Luke would concentrate and draw upon the Force to make a leap, etc.

That's essentially how it is for Force users; both Jedi and Sith.

I don't see how there would be a special exception for Sidious, though.

Drawing upon the Force is ubiquitous. Stopping to gather energy is not. Why should I assume that Sidious must expend similar effort and energy to Bane?

Rookwood
But didn't the rain-feat exemplify that?

No.

The rain-feat exemplifies that Bane is still extremely fast. If an item is noted to provide physical enhancements, why would we assume that those enhancements would remain in the item's absence?

It's no different than telling me that my 5'4" girlfriend would stand 5'10" when wearing 6 inch heels but remain that height with bare feet. It doesn't make any sense at all.

No one is suggesting Bane is a slow-poke, but the incontrovertible fact remains that he's slower without orbalisks.

We know Sidious is more powerful than Bane from a number of sources. He should be correspondingly faster.

Originally posted by Arhael
Obralisk enhanced Bane's speed was compared to dozen lightsabers.

Windu's speed was compared to 24 lightsabers. Sidious matched Windu in speed

By your mathematics logic Bane is around twice slower than Dooku.

And?

By your mathematical logic, NJO Luke must be slower than Sidious, because his speed was compared to just twenty lightsabers, while Sidious was on par with Mace Windu, whose visual speed is apparently greater than NJO Luke's.

- And I think you mean twice slower than Sidious, not Dooku. Since Dooku was below Sidious and Windu in speed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Drawing upon the Force is ubiquitous. Stopping to gather energy is not. Why should I assume that Sidious must expend similar effort and energy to Bane?

Because Sidious is just like any other Force user - just powerful.

Other powerful practitioners also have to absorb energy and expend it, so I don't see how he's the sole exception.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

No.

The rain-feat exemplifies that Bane is still extremely fast. If an item is noted to provide physical enhancements, why would we assume that those enhancements would remain in the item's absence?

It's no different than telling me that my 5'4" girlfriend would stand 5'10" when wearing 6 inch heels but remain that height with bare feet. It doesn't make any sense at all.

No one is suggesting Bane is a slow-poke, but the incontrovertible fact remains that he's slower without orbalisks.

We know Sidious is more powerful than Bane from a number of sources. He should be correspondingly faster.

Apparently, you're hinging your argument on the assumption, that for some reason, Bane didn't grow to become knowledgeable and powerful enough to end up as fast as Sidious, toward the end of his life.

Yes, the Orbalisks gave him augmented speed and power - but after he got rid of them, his total training and research in the Sith arts ended up gifting him with that kind of speed, anyway.

What the rain-feat exemplifies, is not only is he visually faster with a blade than any character we've seen, apart from NJO Luke+ - but, that he has grown in skill and power in the Dark side, to the point where he doesn't need them, anyway.

Also, Force users might be stronger in one Force ability and weaker in another - so you're also hinging you're argument off of the assumption, that just because Sidious tends to be strong in certain Force powers, he should automatically be equally strong in all powers, which isn't how it works.

Sidious is great at utilizing the Force Storm ability later on - yet he's too slow and lacks the agility, even in a younger body, to defeat a Pre-NJO Luke.

RotS Sidious is great enough with Telekinesis to hurl Senate Pods like toys - but he lacks the speed and agility to defeat Mace Windu, who is below Yoda.

Until I see otherwise, there is no evidence to suggest any version of Sidious in on par with (Peak) Bane in terms of speed and agility.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Temp, you believe that in context Dooku compares favorably with Bane?

I doubt it. Bane is noted for his speed. He does not just have the rain feat. I am unaware of Dooku being fast enough to appear to be wielding 12 lightsabers at once, at least. His best feat of speed is not losing to an out-of-practice Yoda.

I know this isn't 12 Lightsabers at once(something they've never actually shown visually), but 0:21-0:25 is amongst the fastest footwork and movement I've seen in Star Wars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3wcQEhXwyw

And who said Yoda was out of practice against Dooku? It always amuses me the lengths people will go to downplay Dooku's feat of temporarily holding his own against Yoda.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And who said Yoda was out of practice against Dooku?

Uh, me and Nephthys, Pal.

Remember that big debacle? 😆

- And no one is trying to downplay Dooku's feat of holding Yoda off.

Dooku himself, was out of practice.

Rookwood
Because Sidious is just like any other Force user - just powerful.

Other powerful practitioners also have to absorb energy and expend it, so I don't see how he's the sole exception.

So what you're saying is, when it suits your argument, all Force users are alike. Because Characters X and Y share a specific trait, so too must Character Z?

I might buy that if you didn't jettison that line of thought later in the post when it suits Bane.

The fact remains that Sidious, to my knowledge, is not known to require such meditative gathering of energy to attack with preternatural speed whereas Bane was forced to in order to combat the rain.

Rookwood
Apparently, you're hinging your argument on the assumption, that for some reason, Bane didn't grow to become knowledgeable and powerful enough to end up as fast as Sidious, toward the end of his life.

Because Sidious is more powerful in the Force than Bane and, if we subscribe to Kas'im's logic, correspondingly capable of greater feats of physicality.

Rookwood
Yes, the Orbalisks gave him augmented speed and power - but after he got rid of them, his total training and research in the Sith arts ended up gifting him with that kind of speed, anyway.

Not only is this a baseless assumption, it's flat out wrong. Bane laments in Dynasty of Evil that, courtesy of the aging process, he is slower than he once was. And that's not even taking the orbalisks into consideration, which (at his physical peak), made him stronger and his "reflexes quicker" than they'd ever been (Rule of Two).

Rookwood
What the rain-feat exemplifies, is not only is he visually faster with a blade than any character we've seen, apart from NJO Luke+ - but, that he has grown in skill and power in the Dark side, to the point where he doesn't need them, anyway.

This is another baseless assumption. Bane muses more than once in Dynasty of Evil that the removal of the orbalisks required a shift in tactics when combating his enemies. Furthermore, unlike Bane, Luke demonstrates the blade speed in the midst of combat and is not so easily exhausted.

Rookwood
Also, Force users might be stronger in one Force ability and weaker in another - so you're also hinging you're argument off of the assumption, that just because Sidious tends to be strong in certain Force powers, he should automatically be equally strong in all powers, which isn't how it works.

That's true, but Sidious's superiority over Bane isn't conveyed in the form of specific abilities. The Dark Side Sourcebook, The Complete Visual Dictionary, and The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia simply conveys superior power. Obviously Bane could be superior in certain respects, but greater power in the Force (per Kas'im) lends an individual greater capabilities for combat physicality.

Rookwood
Sidious is great at utilizing the Force Storm ability later on - yet he's too slow and lacks the agility, even in a younger body, to defeat a Pre-NJO Luke.

Setting aside the obvious fact that the outcome of one battle does not necessarily confer superiority, the second duel between the Emperor and Luke is one of relative party. In one scan, Sidious has taken the offensive and has Luke with his back against the wall; in the next, Sidious is disarmed.

But more importantly, Luke displays tremendous power in Dark Empire. Losing to him is hardly an embarrassment.

Rookwood
RotS Sidious is great enough with Telekinesis to hurl Senate Pods like toys - but he lacks the speed and agility to defeat Mace Windu, who is below Yoda.

Because Mace Windu was bolstered by Vaapad (and Sidious's own speed). But don't let little things like facts get in your way.

Rookwood
Until I see otherwise, there is no evidence to suggest any version of Sidious in on par with (Peak) Bane in terms of speed and agility.

Actually, there's plenty to suggest it. But I'm cool with agreeing to disagree: I have little energy for a multi-page debate where I'm constantly chasing down an enemy running with the goalpost and leaving an obstacle course of double standards in his wake.

Originally posted by Rookwood
If we could find a feat for both, that can be realistically considered to be on par with, or greater than the attributes of Bane's rain-feat, then that should put this to rest.

How about when Sidious blitzed Kolar and Tiin before either of them were able to react? Tiin himself is known for his precog abilities, being able to pilot ships in hyperspace and reacting to space debri coming at him at great speed (lightspeed?), but yet Sidious was able to attack Kolar and then him before he could react. Have you calculated how fast Sidious must have been to accomplish this?

Originally posted by Rookwood
'Cause yeah, it sucks that apparently a lot of people are apparently aware that Bane outclasses Dooku and Sidious in sabers - but at least this will test the belief of the masses, and validate what they've come to know.

Darth Bane's rain feat is no more of a dueling feat than blocking blasters bolts with saber. While it does show that Bane has an exceptionally fast defense, but engaging in an actual lightsaber duel requires more than just swinging a blade really fast in a single sequence. And I'm not sure how it makes him faster than Sidious, unless you or anyone else can calculate how fast Sidious was going.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How about when Sidious blitzed Kolar and Tiin [b]before either of them were able to react? Tiin himself is known for his precog abilities, being able to pilot ships in hyperspace and reacting to space debri coming at him at great speed (lightspeed?), but yet Sidious was able to attack Kolar and then him before he could react. Have you calculated how fast Sidious must have been to accomplish this?[/B]

The Jedi during that time were gimped.

Sidious had utilized the Dark side to dampen their connection and ability to perceive the Force.

"..our ability to use the Force has diminished." - Mace Windu

Effectively blindfolding them to their extermination.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Darth Bane's rain feat is no more of a dueling feat than blocking blasters bolts with saber. While it does show that Bane has an exceptionally fast defense, but engaging in an actual lightsaber duel requires more than just swinging a blade really fast in a single? sequence. And I'm not sure how it makes him faster than Sidious, unless you or anyone else can calculate how fast Sidious was going.

It's not just the speed - it's also the sheer number of projectiles he's successfully blocking - and how long he keeps it up.

He apparently managed to block thousands upon thousands (requiring great speed and dexterity to block) of tiny (requiring incredible control and perception in the process) projectiles, launched from the sky at great speeds - and managed to block every one of these objects in a violent downpour - for ten minutes.

- That's like someone shooting thousands of rounds of tiny pins at you, at high speeds - but from all around you - for ten minutes.

And you block and dodge them all, perfectly.

That equals insane speed, reflex, agility and endurance. The likes we've yet to see Sidious match.

And in regards to swordsmanship, Bane at this point was already a Master of many Forms and had great experience with dueling.

So, couple this with speed and dexterity that goes beyond everyone in the mythos, with the exception of Luke - and you've got something.

The idea that Jedi combat abilities were gimped is heretofore baseless:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As you posed to me quite recently, when has Star Wars been consistently logical?
There has been no evidence, to my knowledge, presented by the various EU works (comics, novels, sourcebooks, and television series) that the Jedi are somehow handicapped in combat by the shroud of the dark side. What has been consistently mentioned, across various sources by a multitude of authors and by numerous characters, is that the Jedi's clairvoyant and precognitive abilities have diminished:

In the Attack of the Clones graphic novel, Yoda tries to meditate in the Force during the Council's meeting in the Chancellor's office (right after the attempt on Padme's life) but his vision "blocked" by an apparition of Darth Sidious; Dooku mentions later that "the dark side of the Force" has clouded the Jedi's vision to the Sith's infiltration of the government. In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu tries to use the Force to sense Depa Billaba's status and whereabouts, but is frustrated by the "veil of the dark side"; later, in Revenge of the Sith, he muses that even his shatterpoint charism has been affected by this: though he perceives the lattice connecting Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine, he is unable to discern its outcome—but that same novel has him perceiving and exploiting shatterpoints in Palpatine's defense without issue.

There are others, but I think a vivid picture has been painted. Is there any reason to believe it would mitigate their combat abilities and enhance those of the Sith?

Originally posted by Rookwood
The Jedi during that time were gimped.

Sidious had utilized the Dark side to dampen their connection and ability to perceive the Force.

"..our ability to use the Force has diminished." - Mace Windu

Effectively blindfolding them to their extermination.

It's not just the speed - it's also the sheer number of projectiles he's successfully blocking - and how long he keeps it up.

He apparently managed to block thousands upon thousands (requiring great speed and dexterity to block) of tiny (requiring incredible control and perception in the process) projectiles, launched from the sky at great speeds - and managed to block every one of these objects in a violent downpour - for ten minutes.

- That's like someone shooting thousands of rounds of tiny pins at you, at high speeds - but from all around you - for ten minutes.

And you block and dodge them all, perfectly.

That equals insane speed, reflex, agility and endurance. The likes we've yet to see Sidious match.

And in regards to swordsmanship, Bane at this point was already a Master of many Forms and had great experience with dueling.

So, couple this with speed and dexterity that goes beyond everyone in the mythos, with the exception of Luke - and you've got something.

Just shut up k? lol

Honestly, I need to read the entire passage. How windy was it? Because I don't see how he had to block rain from all around when rain comes down from one direction. And I still don't see how we can compare it with how fast Sidious was going. Sidious was attacking, while Bane was defending.

I can't think straight right now, so IDC.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just shut up k? lol

Honestly, I need to read the entire passage. How windy was it? Because I don't see how he had to block rain from all around when rain comes down from one direction. And I still don't see how we can compare it with how fast Sidious was going. Sidious was attacking, while Bane was defending.

I can't think straight right now, so IDC.

Make sure to switch out your tampon with a fresh one, so it isn't smelly.

Is this your first period? 😆

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Just shut up! I need to.. I need to...THINK.

Shut..up.... I love you... I HATE you! Why don't you ever listen to me?

😆

😱 😆 😆 😆 😆

......no