Dooku vs. Zannah

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The idea that Jedi combat abilities were gimped is heretofore baseless:

- Exactly.

The Jedi majorly appear to have high reflexes, because of their ability to use Precognition in battle.

Palpatine's shroud diminished their ability to see into the future - thereby gimping their Precog and taking away most of their defensive capability in a fight.

Which is also a good reason as to why so many skilled Jedi died in ridiculous ways during Order 66.

But essentially, Palpy fought some gimped-Jedi, so if the situation had been different, they probably would have done a good job holding him off, or maybe even overpowering him.

The trio of Masters who accompanied Windu demonstrate ample combat precognition throughout the Clone Wars—Kolar lays an utter smackdown on fellow Jedi and quasi-dark sider Quinlan Vos; Tiin held his own in combat against Windu himself; and Fisto curbstomped General "I-Swing-26-Strikes-Per-Second" Grievous—undermining the notion that their immediate precognition suffered under Darth Sidious's dark side shroud.

What has been noted to suffer is their greater precognition (i.e. farsight) and clairvoyance. Which is why Mace's general application of the shatterpoint charism failed to sense the outcome of the tangle between Anakin, Sidious, and Obi-Wan and yet, during his fight with Sidious, was used without difficulty.

With respect to the failure of the Jedi to react to Order 66, the novelization provides an explanation: the Jedi had forged relationships with their clone troops, didn't expect betrayal, and the telltale lack of malice radiating from the clones meant that they had little to perceive by way of threat. There's a reason why, when alert to the threat, even younglings such as Zett Jukassa are able to dismantle a clone squad.

This is another scenario of your desire to assume facts that are not only not in evidence, but without suggestion. Until I see something more substantive, there's no point in continuing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The trio of Masters who accompanied Windu demonstrate ample combat precognition throughout the Clone Wars—Kolar lays an utter smackdown on fellow Jedi and quasi-dark sider Quinlan Vos; Tiin held his own in combat against Windu himself; and Fisto curbstomped General "I-Swing-26-Strikes-Per-Second" Grievous—undermining the notion that their immediate precognition suffered under Darth Sidious's dark side shroud.

What has been noted to suffer is their greater precognition (i.e. farsight) and clairvoyance. Which is why Mace's general application of the shatterpoint charism failed to sense the outcome of the tangle between Anakin, Sidious, and Obi-Wan and yet, during his fight with Sidious, was used without difficulty.

With respect to the failure of the Jedi to react to Order 66, the novelization provides an explanation: the Jedi had forged relationships with their clone troops, didn't expect betrayal, and the telltale lack of malice radiating from the clones meant that they had little to perceive by way of threat. There's a reason why, when alert to the threat, even younglings such as Zett Jukassa are able to dismantle a clone squad.

This is another scenario of your desire to assume facts that are not only not in evidence, but without suggestion. Until I see something more substantive, there's no point in continuing.

Except you overlook the fact that Windu specifically pointed out their diminished ability to use the Force - at that later particular part in the war, when it had become apparent.

Perhaps earlier on the Shroud had not been potent enough to affect them so greatly - but at that point, it definitely was.

And is just another reason for the way everything transpired - including Palpatine's dispatching of the now-gimped Jedi Masters.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Except you overlook the fact that Windu specifically pointed out their diminished ability to use the Force - at that later particular part in the war, when it had become apparent.

The only thing being overlooked is the context of Windu's admission. Yoda says that the Jedi must have been blind not to foresee the development of a clone army; Dooku later says that the dark side cloud around the Jedi vision is what prevents them from detecting Sidious's presence.

Nowhere is combat said to play a role.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Perhaps earlier on the Shroud had not been potent enough to affect them so greatly - but at that point, it definitely was.

I'm pretty sure Mace's shatterpoint charism was used just fine in the duel against Sidious, whereas after Dooku's death he was unable to glean much from a non-combat standpoint.

Maybe they time-traveled!

Originally posted by Rookwood
And is just another reason for the way everything transpired - including Palpatine's dispatching of the now-gimped Jedi Masters.

Well, there's no evidence to support this. But on the other hand, you say so, so why not?

I'm not sure what the point of any debate is with you on hand to lay down the law with such clarity.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only thing being overlooked is the context of Windu's admission. Yoda says that the Jedi must have been blind not to foresee the development of a clone army; Dooku later says that the dark side cloud around the Jedi vision is what prevents them from detecting Sidious's presence.

Nowhere is combat said to play a role.

Dampened Precog is dampened precog.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

I'm pretty sure Mace's shatterpoint charism was used just fine in the duel against Sidious, whereas after Dooku's death he was unable to glean much from a non-combat standpoint.

Maybe they time-traveled!

His ability to use Shatterpoints may have dampened as well.

I'm not saying they lost their Precog completely - just that it was weakened; apparently significantly - Which makes sense.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Well, there's no evidence to support this. But on the other hand, you say so, so why not?

I'm not sure what the point of any debate is with you on hand to lay down the law with such clarity.

Well, their Precog was weakened. Just Saiyan.

Way to lay down the law, bro. 👆

Given that your presence renders things like canon and debate obsolete, we should probably look into renovating these forums. Maybe you could post a thread and tell us the winner in the next post and we could just read it and agree.

mmm

That's what her polls are for. 😖hifty:

😆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Way to lay down the law, bro. 👆

Given that your presence renders things like canon and debate obsolete, we should probably look into renovating these forums. Maybe you could post a thread and tell us the winner in the next post and we could just read it and agree.

mmm

Actually, I'm way into Canon - and logic.

But again, I'm just putting my viewpoints out there - and I greatly respect yours.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Actually, I'm way into Canon - and logic.

Are you?

Originally posted by Rookwood

I did watch it - paid money to go see the Pilot in Theaters.

Then I watched season 1 - until the episode where Dooku was caught like a mouse by some pirates.

Then I realized it's essentially Retarded-garbage intended for children or those with an IQ of 10 or below.

I don't consider any of that crap to be Canon, and not surprisingly, a lot of other people don't, as well.

If you really want to be into Canon, then you need to be into ALL OF IT. You can't just pick and choose what is canon and what is not according to your own likes and dislikes.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The trio of Masters who accompanied Windu demonstrate ample combat precognition throughout the Clone Wars—Kolar lays an utter smackdown on fellow Jedi and quasi-dark sider Quinlan Vos; Tiin held his own in combat against Windu himself; and Fisto curbstomped General "I-Swing-26-Strikes-Per-Second" Grievous

And the way Sidious slaughtered them is more impressive than anything Bane has done in actual combat, IMO. Bane's rain feat is impressive, but how can we compare it with Palpatine's blitzing? Bane's feat was more of a display of defensive speed.

Does it matter if he does it in combat or out combat? He can move at those speeds either way.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And the way Sidious slaughtered them is more impressive than anything Bane has done in actual combat, IMO. Bane's rain feat is impressive, but how can we compare it with Palpatine's blitzing? Bane's feat was more of a display of defensive speed.

Defensive speed? What do you mean? Speed is speed, and it can be used offensively or defensively...

No, it requires far more coordination to apply that same speed in a duel. And, no, defensive speed is not the same as offensive speed. For example, I can have exceptionally fast reflexes, but that doesn't mean I can do boxing combos with the exact same amount of speed. And in a fight I would also be defending against more than just an opponents speed, I would also be defending against his strength, while dishing out punches of my own, which would leave me open to any possible attacks. Rain? Come on defending against rain is not the same as defending against a lightsaber attack, as rain has hardly any impact whatsoever compared to force inhanced lightsaber attacks. Bane can casually defend himself against rain by moving his blade really fast in a single sequence, forming a shield out of his blade. Do you think that's all he will be doing in a lightsaber duel that requires more than moving his blade in a single sequence, but that also requires foot work (or moving his entire body with force inhanced speed) and attacks of his own.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Bane is not skilled or that he is not strong enough to defend against saber attacks. I'm saying that Sidious has by far the better speed feat in context of actual combat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Come on defending against rain is not the same as defending against a lightsaber attack, as rain has hardly any impact whatsoever compared to force inhanced lightsaber attacks. Bane can casually defend himself against rain by moving his blade really fast in a single sequence, forming a shield out of his blade.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it requires far more coordination to apply that same speed in a duel. And, no, defensive speed is not the same as offensive speed. For example, I can have exceptionally fast reflexes, but that doesn't mean I can do boxing combos with the exact same amount of speed. And in a fight I would also be defending against more than just an opponents speed, Rain? Come on defending against rain is not the same as defending against a lightsaber attack, as rain has hardly any impact whatsoever compared to force inhanced lightsaber attacks. Bane can casually defend himself against rain by moving his blade really fast in a single sequence, forming a shield out of his blade. Do you think that's all he will be doing in a lightsaber duel that requires more than moving his blade in a single sequence, but that also requires foot work (or moving his entire body with force inhanced speed) and attacks of his own.

😆 Right.

You have absolutely no clue of what you're talking about.

If Bane (or anyone) has the reflexes to block and dodge every droplet in a violent storm for ten minutes - they have no need to meet physical force with physical force - and with that kind of reflex, they can defend - and time their counter-strikes.

You don't need to use a goddamn "combo" if you know where your opponent is going to be - all you need to do is defend, wait till he gets there, and strike through an opening, either present, or created by your defense.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I would also be defending against his strength, while dishing out punches of my own, which would leave me open to any possible attacks.

And who the hell teaches you to meet force with force? That's utterly retarded. 😆

I get the feeling you watch a lot of UFC/Boxing on tv, without understanding how it actually works. 😄

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Bane is not skilled or that he is not strong enough to defend against saber attacks. I'm saying that Sidious has by far the better speed feat in context of actual combat.

In terms of pure speed, the physical attributes and demands of Bane's rain-feat go beyond everyone in the mythos, except for Luke.

If you want to argue Palpatine has better technique - that might be debatable.

But in terms of physical visual speed? That's quite evidently Bane.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it requires far more coordination to apply that same speed in a duel. And, no, defensive speed is not the same as offensive speed. For example, I can have exceptionally fast reflexes, but that doesn't mean I can do boxing combos with the exact same amount of speed.

Um, yes you could.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Rain? Come on defending against rain is not the same as defending against a lightsaber attack, as rain has hardly any impact whatsoever compared to force inhanced lightsaber attacks. Bane can casually defend himself against rain by moving his blade really fast in a single sequence, forming a shield out of his blade. Do you think that's all he will be doing in a lightsaber duel that requires more than moving his blade in a single sequence, but that also requires foot work (or moving his entire body with force inhanced speed) and attacks of his own.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Bane is not skilled or that he is not strong enough to defend against saber attacks. I'm saying that Sidious has by far the better speed feat in context of actual combat.

You should actually read the passage before you run your mouth next time. 😉

'As the first fat drops splattered onto the patio stones around him, Bane exploded into action. Abandoning the overpowering style of Djem So, he shifted to the quicker sequences of Soresu, his lightsaber tracing tight circles above his head in a series of movements designed to intercept enemy blaster bolts.

The wind rose to a howling gale, and the scattered drops quickly became a downpour. His body and mind united as one, he channeled the infinite power of the Force against the driving rain. Tiny clouds of hissing steam formed as his blade picked off the descending drops while Bane twisted, twirled, and contorted his body to evade those few that managed to slip through his defenses.

For the next ten minutes he battled the pelting storm, reveling in the power of the dark side. And then, as suddenly as it had begun, the tempest was gone, the dark cloud scurrying away on the breeze. Breathing hard, Bane extinguished his lightsaber. His skin was sheened in sweat, but not a single drop of rain had touched his bare flesh.'

Its pretty clear that he's not just spinning his lightsaber above his head.

Indeed. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by Rookwood
If Bane (or anyone) has the reflexes to block and dodge every droplet in a violent storm for ten minutes - they have no need to meet physical force with physical force

No, you're just not getting what I'm saying. Physical force of a lightsaber attack can somewhat slow a person down. For example, it was the power behind Anakin's attacks that allowed him to beat Dooku, causing Dooku to stagger. However, Dooku was reacting to Anakin's attacks just fine. It was Anakin's strength that Dooku was having trouble with. Now, if the strength/impact behind Anakin's attacks were replaced with the impact of rain, then Dooku would have casually defended against the attacks just fine considering that Anakin isn't much faster than Dooku. Dooku also didn't have trouble reacting to Savage's speed considering that Dooku is considerably faster (it's how he dodged Savage's strikes while unarmed afterall); it was the strength behind Savage's attacks that Dooku couldn't defend against.

If you are implying that Bane is so fast that he can blitz opponents before crossing blades with them, then give me a feat that shows him doing that. He has never replicated the same amount of speed in combat. He has never blitzed exceptionally fast jedi as easily as Palpatine has. His best speed feat was defending himself from rain. And again, defensive speed is not the same as offensive speed. You and Neph can argue "yah-huh" all you want. Dooku reacted to Yoda's speed, but that doesn't mean he can attack as fast.

Originally posted by Rookwood
You don't need to use a goddamn "combo" if you know where your opponent is going to be - all you need to do is defend, wait till he gets there, and strike through an opening, either present, or created by your defense.

It depends on who you're fighting. Defending against the speed of Palpatine's attacks would be far more trouble for Bane than defending against rain, as Palpatine's attacks would have about a million times the greater impact. And you have not quite proven that Bane is faster than Palpatine, who can move far beyond the inhanced perception and reaction speed of jedi who can use the force to navigate starships in hyperspace, or casually defend against mulitiple blaster bolts at once (Palpatine can also defend against opponents who stalemate him in speed). The best you can do is grasp at straws and say that the force was dampening the jedi's ability to use the force, as if that somehow change's their accomplished feats; it doesn't.

Now calculate Palpatine's speed for me and explain how it compares to Bane's, because I have absolutley no idea. I'm no expert on this kind of stuff (evidently neither are you). Otherwise, I'm not interested in debating with some troll who tries to be some comedian that laughs at her own jokes because noone else will.

For example, it was the power behind Anakin's attacks that allowed him to beat Dooku, causing Dooku to stagger. However, Dooku was reacting to Anakin's attacks just fine. It was Anakin's strength that Dooku was having trouble with. Now, if the strength/impact behind Anakin's attacks were replaced with the impact of rain, then Dooku would have casually defended against the attacks just fine considering that Anakin isn't much faster than Dooku.

who can move far beyond the inhanced perception and reaction speed of jedi who can use the force to navigate starships in hyperspace