Dooku vs. Zannah

Originally posted by Raptor22
it must be new because even in the link u provided in the first paragraph under powers it has a quote from lucas saying this. "From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

The quote doesn't preclude the idea that Dooku and Maul couldn't become more powerful than Sidious, just that they didn't.

Originally posted by Raptor22
I'm not sure what u mean by they werent part of banes sith order. Lumiya was an apprentice of Vader that he was going to use to overthrow the emperor, she was a firm believer in the rule of two and trained jacen under the rule of two philosophy then jacen chose tahiri as his apprentice. it might not be the strongest link but they're still connected.

Bane's order died with Vader and Sidious. Lumiya was not formally trained as a Sith; she has no more claim to the title than Ventress or Starkiller. That she adopted Bane's numerical limitation on dark siders doesn't translate to an ultimate advocacy of his teachings. We know, in fact, she defies Bane: laying down her life for Jacen rather than forcing him to wrest control of the order from her. But more importantly, Lucas has no involvement with post!ROTJ EU "Sith." Bane and the Rule of Two, on the other hand, were directly conceived by Lucas in the background of The Phantom Menace. Whether or not he meant his words to apply to Lumiya, Jacen, etc. is unknown but unlikely: he doesn't consider them to "exist" in the strictest sense.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Yes, really. I feel cross that DP made such an assertion about you.

The truth hurts doesn't it kid?

Originally posted by Rookwood

Actually, Mace referring to Sidious as a "blur" - when Mace himself is attacking with greater visual speed than NJO Luke (a more powerful version of the same Luke that out-sped an evolved-Palpatine) conveys that Sidious was moving with great speed - trying desperately not to get cut to pieces by Mace's impressive attacks.

Are you high? He see's him as a blur.. In what world does that make Mace faster?!

Originally posted by Rookwood
This "blur" could not even touch Mace, and was broadcasting it's fear through the Force after a time, realizing Mace would win.

In other words, through the brutal fight, Palpatine was on the defensive and then realized he would lose.

Being fast enough to dissolve all of Palpatine's strikes and put him on the constant defensive, implies at least a slight advantage in speed.

Yep he was just on "constant defense" especially up to 0:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_XLDlDWLQ

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The quote doesn't preclude the idea that Dooku and Maul couldn't become more powerful than Sidious, just that they didn't.

Dooku seems to believe that he has reached his potential as of DR, if I recall correctly. This could be the reason why he feels that his only hope of ever detroying Sidious is with the help of another powerful apprentice.

Not saying that he has no room for improvement, but it seems that he has no faith in becoming much more powerful.

I do not think Maul had the chance to be as powerful as Sidious. According to Tempest, Plageuis has Sidious as viewing Maul as a sort of pet, not as an equal.

Other than that, theres simply nothing indicating that Maul was that damn powerful.

Plagueis has Sidious advertising Maul to the titular character as a blunt instrument.

It's tragically embarrassing that you haven't read the novel for yourself, it's better by far than anything in the Old Republic era, which languishes in perpetual creative drought.

I have other things to do. Plus you've already told me what happens so I'm not really feeling a need for read there.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The truth hurts doesn't it kid?

Not being a kid, I wouldn't know. 😛

But since you're the resident Little *****, maybe you can shine some light on that for me? 😆

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Are you high? He see's him as a blur.. In what world does that make Mace faster?!

Originally posted by Rookwood
Actually, Mace referring to Sidious as a "blur" - when Mace himself is attacking with greater visual speed than NJO Luke (a more powerful version of the same Luke that out-sped an evolved-Palpatine) conveys that Sidious was moving with great speed - trying desperately not to get cut to pieces by Mace's impressive attacks.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yep he was just on "constant defense" especially up to 0:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_XLDlDWLQ

You mean after the first ten seconds of the fight, where he fails to stab Mace? Oh yeah, real impressive. 😆

And ironically, just like in the novel, after the beginning of the duel - everything goes downhill for Sidious.

Oh and by the way - this is a much better copy of the fight: YouTube video

Your version had pieces missing. 😉

Also - interesting - after your vaunted-example of Sidious' dominance in the fight - just seconds later, his battle starts to go downhill (1:07)

And it's all downhill from there. 😛

(1:35)+ Wow - that sure looks like being forced onto the defensive, to me.

Then he gets kicked down - which is impressive, because in real swordsmanship, throwing a kick from the waist and above, is in reality, a good way to lose your leg - for Mace to be able to do that, exemplifies incredible speed, as if Palpatine had been quicker, he could have bisected Windu's leg in response - but he was too slow.

Likewise, in the novel, Windu and Sidious duel with reduced-footwork - but their hands are still delivering cuts and blocks - and Sidious there, is slower than Windu too, who wins out in the end. 😎

So yes; very interesting - just past the opening moments of their duel - Sidious was already forced onto the defensive, until he lost the fight.

So much for your bullshit argument. 😆

Oh, and next time, you might want to use a video that has all of the fight. 🙄 😆

Originally posted by Rookwood
Not being a kid, I wouldn't know. 😛

But since you're the resident Little *****, maybe you can shine some light on that for me? 😆

Whatever. Point is I know what Neph meant. You don't.

Originally posted by Rookwood
If Mace attacked Sidious with greater speed, than the guy who beat Sidious at his most powerful - then yeah, It's pretty obvious Mace is faster than Sidious. 😎

A>B>C complete fail. Oh and Luke and Sidious are both described as Blurs in Dark Empire anyway.

Originally posted by Rookwood
You mean after the first ten seconds of the fight, where he fails to stab Mace? Oh yeah, real impressive. 😆

And what Mace stabbed him?

Mace was the one being forced back for the first half of their Saber duel.

And actually Sidious is the one who displayed greater "Visual" speed with his acrobats.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whatever. Point is I know what Neph meant. You don't.

I can see into Neph's heart. You only wish you had that capability. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

A>B>C complete fail. Oh and Luke and Sidious are both described as Blurs in Dark Empire anyway.

You're not getting it, Lad. 😮‍💨

NJO Luke - Twenty Swings a second.

RotS Mace - Twenty-four Swings a second.

And NJO Luke is beyond DE Luke, who out-dueled DE Sidious, the most powerful incarnation of that individual.

This alone, proves that Sidious was below Mace Windu in speed - and not just the fact that Windu out-moved him in both the novel and movie.

Get it? - It's math - not the alphabet. 😎

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And what Mace stabbed him?

No, he kicked him down/sliced his weapon in two - to defeat him. 😎

Now, what did Sidious do to defeat him in the duel, again? 😄

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Mace was the one being forced back for the first half of their Saber duel.

That's nice - and Mace was forcing Sidious back through 90% of the duel and then beat him.

It was all Sidious could do to keep from being turned into chop suey, the poor little man. 😛

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And actually Sidious is the one who displayed greater "Visual" speed with his acrobats.

Flipping a few times to desperately avoid being mutilated isn't that impressive.

He was mostly moving around so much because he didn't want to be killed - while Mace was pressing the attack so quickly that his blade looked like two-dozen at once and came from all directions.

And eventually, Palpatine just couldn't run anymore, and fell to Windu.

Wait wait...Windu has 24 swings per second? Damn. What would Yoda be then like 30?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wait wait...Windu has 24 swings per second? Damn. What would Yoda be then like 30?

Yeah, per the novel.

I know - it's crazy. And wasn't Grievous 26 swings?

Explains why Windu had such a difficult time with him in Labyrinth, and why the other Jedi just couldn't match the General in speed.

My guess is Yoda is probably equal with Windu in speed, but he might be a bit higher.

The novelizations version of Windu's duel isn't canon. It's written from the perspective of Anakin, who only comes into the room after the fight is over in the movie (G-canon). Any observations made by him about speed or any descriptions from his perspective are thus null and void.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The novelizations version of Windu's duel isn't canon. It's written from the perspective of Anakin, who only comes into the room after the fight is over in the movie (G-canon). Any observations made by him about speed or any descriptions from his perspective are thus null and void.

It's all essentially Canon, though.

Plus, apparently DP and I were taking different forms of Canon into account when we were debating the duel.

Furthermore:

I would say that DP's description of Darth Sidious as a "blur" is correct.

- Darth Sidious does move as fast as he was described in the novel, regardless of whether Anakin's saying it or not.

Sidious and Mace do move that fast, and a few other novels had previously eluded to this speed. But the audience wouldn't be able to see the two combatants fighting, if they showed them at their frank, true speed.

Obviously it would have to be slowed down - and I'm sure Yoda and Sidious were going at it, at boggling speeds as well.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Yeah, per the novel.

I know - it's crazy. And wasn't Grievous 26 swings?

Explains why Windu had such a difficult time with him in Labyrinth, and why the other Jedi just couldn't match the General in speed.

My guess is Yoda is probably equal with Windu in speed, but he might be a bit higher.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The novelizations version of Windu's duel isn't canon. It's written from the perspective of Anakin, who only comes into the room after the fight is over in the movie (G-canon). Any observations made by him about speed or any descriptions from his perspective are thus null and void.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I always thought Yoda was faster than Windu and Sidious both honestly.

You're probably right. And that does make sense, being that Yoda is the Grandmaster, and disarms Sidious in their duel.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Strawman. Just because Anakin didn't see it doesn't detract from the author's intention for those two to be depicted at that speed.

That's actually a good point.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Strawman. Just because Anakin didn't see it doesn't detract from the author's intention for those two to be depicted at that speed

The authors intention is not canon and is not a part of what happened in that scene. Anakin could not physically make those observations. The entire section is non-canon. It's an archetypal case of canon conflict. I don't see how this is remotely a Strawman argument. I'm not misrepresenting an argument or changing the argument. All I did was point out that you can't use any of Anakin's observations of that fight because Anakin was not actually observing that fight. How could it possibly be usable when the observations never took place?

Matthew Stover '06
Though I did not personally watch him do it, I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.

What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.

Period.

We can prune without removing wholesale (in fact, I'd advise it given how the very existence of certain beloved EU characters and events represents an archetypical canon conflict): Anakin wasn't present for the duel, but it still doesn't preclude the idea that Sidious registers only as a blur to Anakin.

Yes, I am well aware of that quote. I am also aware that the novelisation came out before the movie did. Any contradictions weigh in favor of the movie overriding the novel. Even Lucas changes his mind (shocker, I know). Its entirely possible that as of the time he edited the novel (which iirc was based on an earlier script), Anakin was present for the fight and that he changed that later. Even if we ignore that distinct possibility, that Lucas wanted something in the book only proves that he wanted it in the book, not that he wanted it in continuity.

Absolutely, because he'd deliberately take the time to line edit a 300+ page novel when he didn't want to to align with continuity. 👆

Try harder Neph. facepalm