Originally posted by Nephthys
If we get a thread on neutral grounds, we'll argue that, I'm sure.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Fair enough. I suppose there isn't any way to be sure.
Merry Christmas, you British bastard.
Nephthys
No it isn't irrelevent. We discount hyperbole because of the ambiguity of scale it has. In this case the statement is only ambiguous on the degree to which Vitiates lightning was more powerful than Nyriss'. Clearly it is not 'infinitely' greater, but there is not question that the quote means that his lightning was superior to hers, and to a great degree.
It is irrelevant, given that Vitiate's superiority over Nyriss is not in question. The quote provides us with nothing that enables us to determine where he would be, other than more powerful than her.
Nephthys
I doubt that it says that he is 'only' that. It says that s/he is the most talented in a couple generations. This does not preclude him/her from being the most talented for the generations before that as well, or that the Hero is simply vastly more powerful than they are talented. Besides which, the Hero's feats speak for themselves. If there were superior Jedi in the generations before them, that would only make them more powerful, not the Hero less.Legend has so kindly provided us with a feat for Master Din. I would estimate that the amount of rock there is equal to the pillars that Dooku lifted in his training with Savage. Not an inconsiderable amount. Furthermore, the databook describes him as 'A grizzled Jedi Master who's fought more battles with the Sith than any other living member of the order' and a survivor of the Sacking of Coruscant. It is also illogical to assume that he is weak in skills given that it also descibes him as 'a man of action' who 'prefers to leave meditation, debate and diplomacy to the Jedi Council while he goes out and gets things done.' Given this and his status as a Jedi Council member, we should not dismiss him. The fact that the Hero showed up on Tython and outperformed the most battle experienced member of the Jedi Order on the first day of being there is quite staggering, and speaks of the Hero's power.
That the Hero is a prodigy of sorts is not in question. The fact that Orgus Din can collapse a cave does not equate to Dooku lifting that weight. The former is aided by gravity whereas the latter defies it.
Nephthys
Then why not discount all feats and ignore all powerful Force uses since they are clearly not able to be used in actual combat?
Because feat comparisons are useful when one is trying to determine a Force user's strength relative to another. Comparing Bane and Plagueis, for example, one might make special mention of Plagueis's ability to disintegrate half a dozen assassins on the fly when mortally injured. No one would suggest that Plagueis could replicate the feat, even at full strength, with a fully prepared Bane, who is capable of producing powerful Force shields and retaliating with his own formidable powers.
Vitiate's ability to reduce droids to their baser components with telekinesis might very well make him appear more powerful than Force users with less impressive telekinesis, but it hardly means that he could reproduce its effects in a fight against that Force user.
Nephthys
Why not? Yoda does not have innate electrical or force lightning resistance. Were he to not defend himself, which he doesn't appear to in any way, why would he not be reduced to ash by Sidious' full-power lightning?
He does defend himself against Sidious's lightning. Furthermore, we see demonstrations of Yoda's durability when he plummets from the Senate pod to the floor (a fall that would incapacitate or kill most humans) and his extraordinary biological longevity. He might very well be resistant to lightning beyond the standard adept.
Nephthys
But the is nothing indicating that he wasn't able to apply it in his battle with the Hero. The mere fact that he lost does not show that at all. I'm really not seeing the basis for your claim here.
Because the Hero fled from the earthquake-causing telekinesis after the fight's end, rather than contest it?
Nephthys
I submit that you again have no basis for that claim. That they did not pose a threat to the Hero and T7 does not suddenly translate into them being utterly inconsequential. They kept them busy, which is the only thing I have ever claimed them to be able to do.
Inconsequential against a truly formidable Force user, yes. Contrary to your suggestions, T7 is not going to rival a powerful Force adept in combat prowess or skill. Moreover, the Hero broke off and dealt with them one-on-one; there is no reason to assume that another Force adept would deal with them in the exact same time-consuming manner or that they have to be dealt with in such a way.
Nephthys
The darkside manifests on Dromund Kaas as lightning storms.
Not quite. Those are the manifestations of Vitiate's elaborate rituals, per the official website, which is further proof of his reliance on such things.
Nephthys
There is no indication that it also manifests as a darkside nexus.
Only if you want to ignore its definition as issued by The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia as any "unusual localization" of dark side energy. I should think that a world that is said to "bristle" with the dark side would qualify.
Nephthys
Although, a question: Would you say that if they fought in the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas, that Vitiate could defeat Sidious?
That would depend greatly on any time by Vitiate to prepare for the Emperor's arrival. Comparatively, Palpatine's combat feats are consistently superior.
Nephthys
Which is again irrelevant give the Emperor's weakened condition before the duel
As Arhael explained, electing to save Carsen from the Empire will afford Vitiate an opportunity to regain his strength.
Nephthys
and that afterwards he had just expended his energy in his fight with the Hero, was noticably exhausted and oh yeah, was at deaths door.
When we consider that, as a spirit, Freedon Nadd was capable of collapsing masonry and affecting the physical world, I'm not particularly inclined to believe that Vitiate's telekinetic powers were reduced by physical injury, especially on a dark side nexus.
Nephthys
Where does it say that Yoda studied for nine centuries? I believe that Yoda's past is actually quite obscured, so that we do not actually know how much time he spent as a Jedi.
The official website says he spent a great deal of time pondering the Force's mysteries.
Nephthys
Either way, the comparison isn't quite adequate, as Yoda had other duties such as the training of students to occupy him in his time as a Jedi, whereas Vitiate is specifically noted to do little else but study the Force, and built the infrastructure of the Sith Empire so that other people could run the show while he studied the Force.
Palpatine led a demanding double life as a prominent galactic politician for decades. Combined with a lifespan, next to that of Vitiate or Yoda, that was comparatively short, I suppose he wasn't an especially learned dark sider either?
Nephthys
You should also remember that the darkside heightens learning times. What took Yoda centuries to learn could be learnt by Sidious in decades due to this factor of the dark side.
Where is proof of this? The dark side is a faster path to obtain power, yes, which is why the Emperor regularly encourages his adepts to summon their rage, which focuses their energies and makes them deadlier in combat. Where is the proof that the dark side increases intellectual capability and understanding?
Nephthys
Its the quick way to power, remember? Vitiate, having both the darksides penchant for increased learning speed, millennia of study and as Borborad pointed out, a wealth of material logically is the most knowledgable Force User in history.
There is, again, no proof of this. Revan was a considerably young Force user who spent a great deal of time actively commanding armies and, yet, was an extraordinarily learned and masterful Force user. Bane, too, was especially young and, as you have argued time and again, was not only extremely powerful, but inordinately educated in the ways of the Force. Dooku studied the Force uninterrupted for approximately eight decades, would you say he had a greater knowledge and mastery of it than Sidious, twenty years his junior?
You incorrectly conflate time spent with Force mastered and there is no evidence of this. By your formula, not only should Revan and Bane rank hilariously low among Force adepts, not only should Dooku eclipse Sidious in knowledge of the Force, but Vitiate's mastery and knowledge should be exponentially higher than anyone-- Sidious's included. As should his power, really, if he drained eight thousand Sith Lords and was a prodigy before that.
Which brings us back to the point that neither Vitiate's power or mastery reflects this formula. After studying the Force for over a thousand years, after supposedly consuming the power of an entire world and eight thousand Sith Lords in one fell swoop... the evidence compiled suggests that, at best, he is a peer to the Emperor and other Sith Lords instead of lightyears ahead.
Originally posted by Arhael
Which wouldn't reveal the fact that he mind dominated those Sith Lords. It can't be evidenced because to everyone those Sith Lords would seem to be cooperating.
Originally posted by Arhael
Correction. He claims that he has and never posted a single quote. His claim that Vitiate mind dominated 8000 Sith Lord is outright lie.
Originally posted by Arhael
No she wasn't.
Originally posted by Arhael
Overwhelming amount of EU material supports my opinion. Same can't be said about yours.
Originally posted by Arhael
First, that post proves nothing, in cut scene we see that they get overpowered by lightning and lose consciousness as result.
Originally posted by Arhael
lol. Are you serious? Mind domination doesn't have purpulish energies.
This is your statement, correct?
Well, unfortunately for you, mind dominating powers are also depicted in the form of purpulish energies.
Originally posted by Arhael
Second, it wasn't flashback of the fight. It just showed Emperor and JK with no background and has no similarity to fight scene at all.
Therefore, you still have naked assumption.
Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate’s plans have nothing to do with his power levels.
Originally posted by Arhael
Demonstrating new abilities doesn’t mean that his Force attacks became more potent since, it just means that he gained new skills or simply demonstrated the skills he already had but didn’t demonstrate before.
I acknowledge that Vitiate may have known lot more then what has been revealed thus far. However, it would be unwise to assume that Vitiate didn't learn any lesson from his second encounter with Revan. By this time, Revan' command of the Force was also extraordinary by all accounts. Vitiate had to noticeably 'up his game' after second confrontation with this guy.
Originally posted by Arhael
Not with mind domination. Force user needs to be able to grasp at right emotions, memories and reasons.
Example of Luke resisting mind domination:
“ But the sight of her brought memories. Luke saw worlds of beauty. He saw his son, composed of Luke and Mara and years to come. Around the edges of Lord Nyax's command he felt the Force, its other natures, the life from which it flowed.He turned back toward Lord Nyax and struggled to find the words to express his thought. "I... stand... in... your... way."
It was the Jedi way. Jedi did not attack. But to position oneself in the path of a violent aggressor who would not yield achieved the same result.
All he could ever do as leader of the wartime Jedi was lead them into the path of the enemy. That was, Luke realized, perhaps his greatest limitation, and in struggling against it without understanding it, he may have hampered the Jedi effectiveness against the enemy.
But once recognized and accepted, it was also perhaps his greatest strength. Whether by accident or design, by his own will or by the permutations of the Force, he had always found his way into the path of the great enemies of all things living.
And here he was again. "I stand in your way," Luke repeated, and was pleased that he had regained control over his voice. "What you see, you will not achieve."
”
This is what Vitiate would show in contrast;
"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."
As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.
Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.
From Revan was well:
"When the Emperor broke my will, he looked into my mind, and I was able to see the reflection of his own evil."
Originally posted by Arhael
As you see Jedi needs to have right state of mind, emotions, experience and memories. Revan and Malak at that point went through war, which only ****ed up their mentality and brought them closer to darkside. Marek on the other hand has already been through darkside and turned to lightside, he already went through his trials, Sidious was able to dominate him by exposing his hatered for Vader, which he overcame as well. But for Revan it was just a beginning of the story.
Revan and Malak were still in their senses after that war. They planned to assassinate the Sith Emperor; not join him.
Also, Vitiate's approach to mind domination seems to be different from that of both Lord Nyax and UnuThul. Vitiate bombards his opponent's mind with horrific visions and his power of the dark side until the senses of the opponent are overloaded and the opponent ends up broken.
Originally posted by Arhael
Mind naming them?
- Jedi Healing Techniques for healing physical wounds
- Tutaminis for counter pure dark side energies based attacks
- Special technique for countering extremely powerful Telepathic assault
- Techniques to counter the effects of drugs and poisons
These are some that have been revealed.
Originally posted by Arhael
Bullshit. Force-sensitive can die, only if Force is drained from him and still not in all cases.
Walking in to a region void of the Force itself is akin to blocking/severing one's connection with the Force; which is exactly what Force Drain/Sever techniques are designed to do.
"When you feel the dark side energies turned against you, you must use your Jedi abilities to take power away from an opponent, rather than to inflict harm. This technique blinds your enemy to the Force with a wall of light, a permanent blockage if you so choose, rendering him unable to use Jedi powers. It is difficult. And it is the most devastating attack possible using the powers of the light side. To block a Jedi from the Force—even a Dark Jedi—is a terrible thing." (Odann Urr)
This corroborates with how Scourge felt inside and outside Nathema:
By the time they reached the shuttle, Scourge's stomach was churning. He had lived his whole life attuned to the Force; having it stripped away had left him physically ill. The shuttle shook as they took to the air, and he fought against the urge to vomit.
As they broke the atmosphere of the cursed world, some semblance of normalcy returned. Scourge felt the Force rushing in to fill the emptiness inside him; he felt its power invigorating him and restoring his strength. At the same time, he also felt something else: the presence of someone strong in the Force—someone who was neither Nyriss nor him.
Scourge had been on Nathema for a brief period and he started experiencing problems/bodily reactions.
Now should I also mention that how Meetra felt on Nathema?
Life on Nathema does not exists after that ritual for a reason; and that reason is absence of the Force itself.
Of-course, powerful individuals can tolerate lack of connectivity with the Force for a certain period of time. But their is a limit.
Originally posted by Arhael
Of course he wouldn’t. That’s why he unleashed Force lightning instead of mind domination. His attempt to mind dominate single Jedi (Revan) failed, surely he wouldn’t be stupid to try out four Jedi simultaneously. It is much easier and safer to overpower them with lightning like Revan. And JK’s quote on breaking from mind domination proves that they were overpowered: “The Emperor overpowered us, Master Braga and the others.”
Originally posted by Arhael
Your theory that FSL cannot be blocked cannot be proved and will never be. However, there are plenty of feats to prove it wrong.
See further dismantling of your baseless arguments below:
Originally posted by Arhael
Both JK and Tol Braga could block it for a while and even made several steps forward, that alone shows you wrong. JK alone later was blocking his lightning, which proves you wrong again. Moreover, you can’t use this example as prove because you assume that it wasn’t FSL alone but with mind domination.
Originally posted by Arhael
As for your example with Malgus, it is not accurate because Aryn(that’s the name of the Jedi) did not die. Malgus spared her life because she spared life of his girlfriend. Aryn returned to her friend, they finally kissed and lived happy ever after. Moreover, the same book proves you wrong because, when Aryn was enraged, she resisted his lightning completely:“She took the hilt of Master Zallow’s lightsaber in her off hand, crouched, and bounded into a leap toward him. He watched her come and at the apex of the leap’s arc, he thrust his left hand at her, roaring, and veins of Force lightning squirmed toward her. Ready for it, she activated Master Zallow’s lightsaber, used it to form an X with her own, and intercepted the lightning on the two blades. His power met her will. The lightning twisted around the glowing blades. The force of it stopped her downward descent and held her aloft in the air for a moment, suspended on a column built of the dark side. And then she overcame it. The lightning dissipated to nothingness and she, unharmed by it, fell straight down, landing on her feet atop a shifting pile of rubble and deactivating Master Zallow’s blade”.
I am talking about a Malgus's duel on Aldeeran in which he demonstrated his most powerful burst of Force Lightning till date or as far as I know. That bombardment wasn't contained by even two lightsabers. For details, consult The Third Lesson.
Apples and Oranges, genius.
Revan was experienced enough to know the limitations of lightsaber against pure dark side energy based attacks in the context of containing them. He effortlessely contained concentrated bursts of Lightning from Vitiate (which were also very deadly by the way) with his lightsaber.
Revan could absorb even an FLS level attack as he had done before. However, Vitiate was too much powerful since he was immortal and his limits were not natural. Vitiate poured so much power in to Revan that his whole body was pushed to breaking point; forget the puny lightsaber.
Originally posted by Arhael
And who says that? Can you prove it? It is the same thing, you and wookieepedia are the only ones who differentiate it. Fact is that Vitiate would try his best to defeat JK, thus whatever he threw at him was as potent as it could be.
Originally posted by Arhael
All EU materials show that Force user’s performance decreases only when they are close to being Force exhausted. Vitiate fought JK using all sorts of complex powers and even after being struck down as you say collapsed building demonstrates that he had hell lot of Force reserves in him. Why not using all those powers to make single unblockable attack you claim he can?
Vitiate not just collapsed that gigantic building but also caused earthquakes in the surroundings. And he did this in his most weak form. Imagine.
I think that Hero of Tython survived with help from his droid, extreme clarity in mind and also his extraordinary skills with the lightsaber. Vitiate actually made a miscalculation by getting too close to him and got struck down.
Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong. After that Palpatine used clones, identical copies of himself. And he demonstrated his most potent powers such as mind domination and Force Storm in clone bodies. His own body simply couldn’t much his power any longer, so he wanted Anakin Solo’s body, which due to heritage had greater potential than his own.
Originally posted by Arhael
Abeloth in body of non-sensitive was decaying much faster, yet, in that body she nearly mind dominated Tahiri and subdued her with TK. Tahiri that resisted mind domination of Lord Nyax better than Luke and Mara and could form Force barrier potent to tank huge explosions. So no, it doesn’t matter which body.
Originally posted by Arhael
From 2:22 he kills the last duplicate then approaches Emperor still sitting on the throne.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It is irrelevant, given that Vitiate's superiority over Nyriss is not in question. The quote provides us with nothing that enables us to determine where he would be, other than more powerful than her.
Vitiate poured so much power in to Revan that the latter's whole body was pushed to breaking point.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That the Hero is a prodigy of sorts is not in question. The fact that Orgus Din can collapse a cave does not equate to Dooku lifting that weight. The former is aided by gravity whereas the latter defies it.
Also, what does gravity have to do with Din's feat of using the Force to collapse the rocky formation? The only role of gravity is that the ripped out rocky parts fell on their own to the ground. But gravity has nothing to do with the ripping action. In contrast, similar showing from Dooku in Geonosis is on a much lesser scale.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate's ability to reduce droids to their baser components with telekinesis might very well make him appear more powerful than Force users with less impressive telekinesis, but it hardly means that he could reproduce its effects in a fight against that Force user.
Droids can be extremely durable and strong. Ever seen Terminator movies?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He does defend himself against Sidious's lightning. Furthermore, we see demonstrations of Yoda's durability when he plummets from the Senate pod to the floor (a fall that would incapacitate or kill most humans) and his extraordinary biological longevity. He might very well be resistant to lightning beyond the standard adept.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because the Hero fled from the earthquake-causing telekinesis after the fight's end, rather than contest it?
Doesn't the fate of Kas'im reveals anything?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Inconsequential against a truly formidable Force user, yes. Contrary to your suggestions, T7 is not going to rival a powerful Force adept in combat prowess or skill. Moreover, the Hero broke off and dealt with them one-on-one; there is no reason to assume that another Force adept would deal with them in the exact same time-consuming manner or that they have to be dealt with in such a way.
Much like T3 saved Revan from death at the hands of Vitiate.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not quite. Those are the manifestations of Vitiate's elaborate rituals, per the official website, which is further proof of his reliance on such things.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if you want to ignore its definition as issued by The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia as any "unusual localization" of dark side energy. I should think that a world that is said to "bristle" with the dark side would qualify.
- On Ambria, Darth Zannah actually used the dark side nexus to gain advantage; Bane didn't.
- Malak defeated Revan on Leviathan (nuetral setting) and but lost to the same guy on Star Forge (a dark side nexus) some months later.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That would depend greatly on any time by Vitiate to prepare for the Emperor's arrival. Comparatively, Palpatine's combat feats are consistently superior.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
As Arhael explained, electing to save Carsen from the Empire will afford Vitiate an opportunity to regain his strength.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Such as?
The Heresiarchs, the Krath, the Sorcerers of Tund....
This assumes that in the millennia between Vitiate's reign and Sidious's that none of the Force cults modified their knowledge base either through development or refinement.
To an extend, your objection is correct.
But then, with your previous statement, you assumed that those Force cults had techniques fundamentally different from what the Sith or Jedi had developed and - in case of the Sith based cults - that their knowledge base developed fundamentally different from that of the surviving Sith. And, on top of that, you seem to think that Sidious (and Plagueis) learned quite a lot by delving into that rather exotic force cults. But then quantity (of sources) doesn't translate into quality (of teaching).
In addition, you apparently assume that Vitiate, having a millenium of time at his disposal, did nothing to broaden his own knowledge in the force. That would appear to be somewhat unlikely for a Sith Lord - even one with Vitiates already formidable abilities.
That aside: Given that we have next to no idea what Sidious may have learned from the study of the more "exotic" force cults, proclaiming that he must have broader knowledge - considering the aforementioned arguments - appears to be somewhat speculative.
It does not follow that an organization's (or individual's, for that matter) political or historical significance is a reflection of the quality of their Force teachings.
Correct.
But, ultimately, Force cults following the Sith codex - at least to a certain extend - would always strive to seek dominance over others. Apparently, this didn't happen, save for a brief uprising of the Krath. For the other groups: There seems to be no relevant teaching that can be traced back to one of the Force cults Sidious did study, so I wonder what kind of "broad" knowledge they had to offer.
The Aing-Tii developed the ability to fold space and flow-walk, not to mention fighting-sight; The Fallanassi developed highly advanced illusions and the memory rub technique; The Baran Do sages possessed techniques that enabled Force users to manipulate the weather and channel electricity and conceal oneself from detection, etc.None of them achieved any real impact on galactic history (at least directly).
The Aing-Tii and the Fallanassi were rather reclusive and hence had no hand in galactic history. I'm a bit curious why you notice them, because they clearly don't belong to the Force cults whose secrets Sidious learned. And the abilities of the Baran Do Sages were not exactly unique and apparently inferior to those of the Jedi.
Plagueis's personal library on Aborah, which is by 11-4D's reckoning finer than any short of Obroa-skai and the Jedi Temple, carries texts regarding the Sorcerers of Tund, Followers of Palawa, Chratos Academy, and the Order of the Dai Bendu (Chapter 5: Homecoming; page 61 on my Nook for PC edition).
Let me just quote the passage to demonstrate the goal of my criticism. It is said, that the library of Plagueis contains:
"Ancient histories of the Rakata and the Vjun; texts devoted to the Followers of Palawa, the Chatos Academy, and the Order of Dai Bendu; archives that had once belonged to House Malreaux; annals of the Sorcerers of Tund and of Queen Amanoa of Onderon; biological studies of the ysalamiri and vornskrs of Myrkr, and of the taozin of Va'art. Certain long lived species, like the Wookies, Hutts, Faleen and Toydarians, were afforded galleries of their own." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, iBook, Chapter 5: Homecoming, p.63
And what does that say about the very content of all that works? We learn, that there are subjects like history and biology involved. But does that passage speak about hidden teachings that could be important to a force user? Plagueis himself, for starters, didn't show much respect for the "ancient" Sith teachings:
"In secret he [Palpatine] continued his Sith training, accepting the absense of actual guidance from his Master as a sign that he was meant to stretch out on his own. An dso he did, delving into many of the ancient texts Plagueis dismissed as worthless, including treatises on Sith sorcery and holocron construction." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, iBook, Chapter 19: The Trials, p.218f.
Plagueis specifically advised Sidious, to discover the dark side in his own unique way, shunning the use of Holocrons in the process:
"But holocrons contain knowledge specific and idiosyncratic to each Sith who constructed them. Real knowledge is passed by Master to apprenticee in sessions such as this[...]" - Star Wars: Darth Plaguies, iBook, Chapter 13: Riders on the storm, p. 159
On the same page, just a little before that, he tells Sidious that there is nothing to be found on the former Sith worlds but Jedi, treasure hunters and empty tombs. So, even though Sidious does study some of the stuff at hand during his career, one could still question, how "broad" his knowledge became and how much he had in comparison to beings like Vitiate.
True, but that was knowledge lost between Bane and Plagueis, which means it is very possible Vitiate himself did not possess it. Not to mention that Sidious had decades after the novel to recover such information. Among the most important techniques was that of the essence transfer, which we know Sidious to have recovered during his reign as Emperor.
Apparently, you've fallen victim to the way of thinking Lightsnake once introduced to the forum, which is a miraculous generation of knowledge ex nihilo for the Sith of Bane's order, especially Sidious. What do you think where there knowledge came from? Did they exclusively invent stuff in the 1000 years out of nowhere? No. They started with stuff whose progenitors were the Ancient Sith and apparently aspired to knowledge those former masters of the force had at their disposal. There are enough passages in the Plagueis novel to tell us that much (all books from the iBook version of the novel):
"In Bane's age a Sith might have had to guard against an attempt at essence transfer by the deceased - a leap into the consciousness of the Sith who survived - but those times were long past and of no relevance; not since the teachings had been sabotaged, the technique lost" - Chapter 1: The Underworld, p.29
"If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this [extending their own lifes].[...]Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy." - Chapter 5: Homecoming, p. 65
Right after that quote, Plagueis mentions that the essence transfer into another being or a clone (hint: Sidious) was a lesser surrogate for the aforementioned abilities. And not that they have never discovered all knowledge the Ancient Sith had - they even lost most of the stuff the did found, thanks to Gravid:
"[...]Gravid became convinced that the only way to safeguard the future of the Sith was to hide or destroy the lore that had been amassed through the generations[...]he had attempted as much, and was thought to have destroyed more than half of the repository[...]" - Chapter 25: The discreet charm of the meritocracy, p.281
So, yes, I'm somewhat reluctant accept statements that happily proclaim beings within Bane's order to have a "broader knowledge" than members of the Ancient Sith Empire, especially a being that had lived more than 1000 years. If you think that Sidious could have learned a nice deal about the Force in decades, why, pray tell, can't you acknowledge the idea that somebody who had centuries to do the same would probably learn even more?
Originally posted by jadams3928 Lord Vitiate returned to his homeworld while the rest of the Sith Empire waged the Great Hyperspace War against the Republic. When the hasty Sith Offensive ended in failure, the Empire collapsed- but Lord Vitiate was stronger than ever. He bid every surviving sith to unite or die at the hands of the jedi. Eight thousand sith lords gathered on Medrias and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.
Page 161. Move along now, child.
This is a sign of bias. You are not giving equal importance to all available sources. Sorry, this kind of attitude will not work with me.They neither confirm and nor deny Nyriss' account. Keep in mind that TOR encyclopedia is also an 'in-universe perspective' based source just like majority of Star Wars materials are.
The flashback scene showed Vitiate bombarding with purplish energies. It was not necessary to show the fight scene when it is obvious that Din was actually talking about that encounter. Analysis is not your forte. Give up.
And how an individual gains new abilities? Magically or the individual attempts to increase his understanding of the Force?
So Lord Nyax was showing him beautiful images? 😕
In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh
”This is what Vitiate would show in contrast;
You mentioned the world 'experience' here. Now unless someone would have experience with the telepathic powers wielded by Vitiate, how would that someone do something to counter it? Get the point?
Revan and Malak were still in their senses after that war. They planned to assassinate the Sith Emperor; not join him.
Also, Vitiate's approach to mind domination seems to be different from that of both Lord Nyax and UnuThul. Vitiate bombards his opponent's mind with horrific visions and his power of the dark side until the senses of the opponent are overloaded and the opponent ends up broken.
- Special technique for countering extremely powerful Telepathic assault
Walking in to a region void of the Force itself is akin to blocking/severing one's connection with the Force; which is exactly what Force Drain/Sever techniques are designed to do.
As for your quotes first one says: “you must use your Jedi abilities to take power away from an opponent, rather than to inflict harm...
you must use your Jedi abilities to take power away from an opponent, rather than to inflict harm. ” – as you see nothing says that it kills, on opposite it is used to avoid harming opponent. Ulic Kel-Droma was severed from the Force with this technique and lived long after.
As for Scourge, he was just ill, he wasn’t dying.
Other characters that were severed from the Force at some point: Callista, Jacen, Tahiri and Ben Skywalker. And of course Yuuzhan Vong. So, ones again Revan being on that planet is no feat, stick to the topic.
Genius, these Jedi haven't had exposure to his telepathic abilities before. Revan's case was different from theirs.
See further dismantling of your baseless arguments below:
They failed to contain the bombardment. The storm continued to swirl around them even with their lightsabers drawn instead of getting contained.
This fight took place on Aldeeran? 🙄 (This is also concentrated burst of Force Lightning)
“At 10 meters, Malgus extended his free hand and loosed veins of blue Force lightning. They struck the charging Jedi: swept through his defenses, swirled around him, and began to burn flesh.”
As you see it is described exactly the same way, so quit bullshit.
Revan was experienced enough to know the limitations of lightsaber against pure dark side energy based attacks in the context of containing them. He effortlessely contained concentrated bursts of Lightning from Vitiate (which were also very deadly by the way) with his lightsaber.Revan could absorb even an FLS level attack as he had done before. However, Vitiate was too much powerful since he was immortal and his limits were not natural. Vitiate poured so much power in to Revan that his whole body was pushed to breaking point; forget the puny lightsaber.
FLS is an extreme form of Force Lightning; it isn't necessarily more lethal but it is too intense to be contained by hand-held weapons. FLS is formed with combination of much higher number of bolts then in a concentrated burst.
Finally a good point from you. Vitiate is immortal and this is why he does not have same limitations as mortal beings in the context of Force-reserves. However, even immortals need durable bodies to harness their full power.Vitiate not just collapsed that gigantic building but also caused earthquakes in the surroundings. And he did this in his most weak form. Imagine.
I think that Hero of Tython survived with help from his droid, extreme clarity in mind and also his extraordinary skills with the lightsaber. Vitiate actually made a miscalculation by getting too close to him and got struck down.
Don't debate with me with this level of misconception/stupidity. 😘
This is the proper version:
Originally posted by Arhael
It says that they agreed to partake ritual, while you claimed that he mind dominated those Sith Lord. Thanks for proving yourself liar ones again. Well done.I give weight only to reliable sources. And now jadams3928 himself posted quote proving that Nyriss’ story is wrong, which means you are wrong as well.
Give up to what? I don't need to prove that there is no mind domination during combat because you haven't proved that there is. And no, it wasn't flashback of fight. JK was holding lightsaber at front of him until lightning knocked him off feet. And ones lightning overpowered him, there were lightning forks dancing all over his body. None of it was in as you call it "flashback", so you building your argument on nothing. It is flashback of something else, thus mind domination occurred at some point later.
By experimenting or discovering them from teachings of other. That doesn’t make them more powerful.
Don’t be silly that was Luke’s counter
Here:
“Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh”
Scourge was simply pissing his pants, he wasn’t getting mind dominated by it. And Revan saw reflexion of his evil after his will was already broken.
Experience gives stronger or weaker mentality in general, there just needs to be right state of mind. As I posted Luke’s example, his dedication to Jedi ways and good memories allowed him to resist mind domination. Similarly accepting Sidious teaching made him mentally weaker. There was no spcefic technique in either case.
And we still don’t know how strong their mentality was at that point.
Mind domination is controlling mind of others, instilling thoughts into minds of others. It is advanced version of mind influence. In any case you don’t know how Vitiate’s mind domination works because it wasn’t described in the book. In any case it is irrelevant to the thread.
It was Force push...
No. Force drain is about leaching Force out of Force user and getting empowered by it.
Here is proof:
“ The Sith seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark fume swirling off his shoulders and head. ”As for your quotes first one says: “you must use your Jedi abilities to take power away from an opponent, rather than to inflict harm...
you must use your Jedi abilities to take power away from an opponent, rather than to inflict harm. ” – as you see nothing says that it kills, on opposite it is used to avoid harming opponent. Ulic Kel-Droma was severed from the Force with this technique and lived long after.As for Scourge, he was just ill, he wasn’t dying.
Other characters that were severed from the Force at some point: Callista, Jacen, Tahiri and Ben Skywalker. And of course Yuuzhan Vong. So, ones again Revan being on that planet is no feat, stick to the topic.It doesn’t matter, since he used lightning.
You are the one who can’t give prove that he used mind domination in that scene and the more you try, the more silly you look. The only baseless argument is yours.
No. Tol Braga stated “We can resist him.” In that moment he was walking forward and there was no forks of lightning dancing on his body.
In quote I posted it was described as “veins of Force lightning”.
This is quote from “Third Lesson”:“At 10 meters, Malgus extended his free hand and loosed [b]veins of blue Force lightning
. They struck the charging Jedi: swept through his defenses, swirled around him, and began to burn flesh.”
As you see it is described exactly the same way, so quit bullshit.Or he just attempted to pull out the same trick as against Nyriss. It’s all subject to interpretation really.
It is your opinion. Not a canon statement.
Concession accepted.
Can’t handle being found clearly wrong about something?
As I thought. Should I remind you that gameplay outside cut-scenes is non-canon? [/B]
Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong. After that Palpatine used clones, identical copies of himself. And he demonstrated his most potent powers such as mind domination and Force Storm in clone bodies. His own body simply couldn’t much his power any longer, so he wanted Anakin Solo’s body, which due to heritage had greater potential than his own.
Err...you're wrong.
"As one's body is consumed by the power of the dark side, the key to immortality is the growth of new bodies into which one can project one's life essence. Unfortunately, because the clones are one step removed from the natural life process itself, they are much more vunerable to the effects of the dark side, and age at an extremely accelerated rate." - Darth Sidious, Jedi VS Sith: The Essential Guide through the Force, p.178.
The Clones were flawed, which caused their accelerated aging process. This was also the reason why Sidious needed a "natural" host for his essence, which he thought to have found in Anakin Solo. Yet, as already stated, the technique of utilizing the essence transfer technique to survive via Clones was viewed, at least by Plagueis, as a lesser surrogate to what some of the Ancient Sith were - apparently - capable of.
Originally posted by Nai
Err...you're wrong."As one's body is consumed by the power of the dark side, the key to immortality is the growth of new bodies into which one can project one's life essence. Unfortunately, because the clones are one step removed from the natural life process itself, they are much more vunerable to the effects of the dark side, and age at an extremely accelerated rate." - Darth Sidious, Jedi VS Sith: The Essential Guide through the Force, p.178.
The Clones were flawed, which caused their accelerated aging process. This was also the reason why Sidious needed a "natural" host for his essence, which he thought to have found in Anakin Solo. Yet, as already stated, the technique of utilizing the essence transfer technique to survive via Clones was viewed, at least by Plagueis, as a lesser surrogate to what some of the Ancient Sith were - apparently - capable of.
Hope everyone had a great Christmas!
Nai
The Heresiarchs, the Krath, the Sorcerers of Tund....
Nai
To an extend, your objection is correct.But then, with your previous statement, you assumed that those Force cults had techniques fundamentally different from what the Sith or Jedi had developed and - in case of the Sith based cults - that their knowledge base developed fundamentally different from that of the surviving Sith.
No, I assumed that these Force cults had an approach regarding the Force that varied from standard Jedi and Sith archetypes and that their techniques and knowledge would be idiosyncratic to that different paradigm. Unlike some, I have no reason to conclude that their perspectives and powers are virtually identical to their progenitors.
Nai
And, on top of that, you seem to think that Sidious (and Plagueis) learned quite a lot by delving into that rather exotic force cults. But then quantity (of sources) doesn't translate into quality (of teaching).
No, I assumed that they learned more by studying these Force cults than by not studying these Force cults. It's a reasonable assumption: that a more diverse education would yield broader knowledge than a more pedestrian one.
Nai
In addition, you apparently assume that Vitiate, having a millenium of time at his disposal, did nothing to broaden his own knowledge in the force. That would appear to be somewhat unlikely for a Sith Lord - even one with Vitiates already formidable abilities.
This would be the third blatant misrepresentation of my argument that you've made and in remarkable succession. Impressive, but I probably shouldn't be surprised. Don't make a fourth.
Nowhere did I assume that Vitiate did not attempt to broaden his knowledge of the Force. He was clearly a scholar par excellence and I already acknowledged that his knowledge of the dark side may very well eclipse the Emperor's.
But unlike Vitiate, we have a myriad of express quotes regarding the Emperor's concerted efforts to "study the Force in all its guises" by gathering "the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds" (The Dark Empire Sourcebook).
Naturally, you'd want me to assume that not only did Vitiate replicate these efforts, he exceeded them. If you produce quotes that indicate or suggest as much, we'll talk. Until then, there's really no point.
Nai
That aside: Given that we have next to no idea what Sidious may have learned from the study of the more "exotic" force cults, proclaiming that he must have broader knowledge - considering the aforementioned arguments - appears to be somewhat speculative.
Somewhat? Perhaps. Entirely, no, which is the difference between an argument favoring Vitiate's "broader" knowledge. I can't give you a list of Force powers that Sidious mastered from the Heresiarchs or Sorcerers of Tund. Nor have I, in turn, demanded a comprehensive list of Vitiate's abilities by which to compare the fruits of their concerted efforts.
Though I'd be willing to bet that, in spite of a thousand years' greater time to dedicate to research, Vitiate's displayed mastery does not exceed Sidious's by any substantial degree.
Nai
Correct.
But, ultimately, Force cults following the Sith codex - at least to a certain extend - would always strive to seek dominance over others. Apparently, this didn't happen, save for a brief uprising of the Krath.
I find this to be a stretch by even the most liberal standards. Why are you trying to equate the sum and quality of a group's knowledge based on whether or not they made any bid for dominance? Ragnos opposed conflict with the Galactic Republic, did he not? Did that decision make him weak or shrewd?
Though would this argument still be outlandish even if I conceded that the cults in question were apathetic or benevolent with respect to power plays, but for all we know, they might very well have had ruthless ambitions but simply lacked the manpower and technology to support such an effort.
Nai
For the other groups: There seems to be no relevant teaching that can be traced back to one of the Force cults Sidious did study, so I wonder what kind of "broad" knowledge they had to offer.
That Wookieepedia doesn't have an article on specific Force powers doesn't mean they don't exist nor does it mean that, if they do, they are insignificant. It may very well mean that they have yet to be explored. I would understand if you could find an example of such a technique simply failing comparatively, but you conflate relevance or prominence with quality.
Do you see the grand irony of this?
Nai
The Aing-Tii and the Fallanassi were rather reclusive and hence had no hand in galactic history.
And the others weren't reclusive?
Nai
I'm a bit curious why you notice them, because they clearly don't belong to the Force cults whose secrets Sidious learned.
According to whom?
Nai
And the abilities of the Baran Do Sages were not exactly unique and apparently inferior to those of the Jedi.
Where were they duplicated? How were they inferior?
Even if both are the case, what does that have to do with anything? It has not been argued that the abilities of these cults match or exceed conventional Jedi and Sith or that these cults would defeat the greater organizations in any sort of battle.
You're shifting the goalpost rather blatantly.
Nai
Let me just quote the passage to demonstrate the goal of my criticism. It is said, that the library of Plagueis contains:"Ancient histories of the Rakata and the Vjun; texts devoted to the Followers of Palawa, the Chatos Academy, and the Order of Dai Bendu; archives that had once belonged to House Malreaux; annals of the Sorcerers of Tund and of Queen Amanoa of Onderon; biological studies of the ysalamiri and vornskrs of Myrkr, and of the taozin of Va'art. Certain long lived species, like the Wookies, Hutts, Faleen and Toydarians, were afforded galleries of their own." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, iBook, Chapter 5: Homecoming, p.63
And what does that say about the very content of all that works? We learn, that there are subjects like history and biology involved. But does that passage speak about hidden teachings that could be important to a force user?
You didn't demand a list of "hidden teachings," you claimed that the novel does not mention other Force cults that Plagueis and Sidious may have studied. This is clearly false.
That said, based on the context of the passage, it's pretty obvious that the texts devoted to the Followers of Palawa, Chratos Academy, and the Order of the Dai Bendu were not "ancient histories," "annals," or "biological studies." (Otherwise, they'd have been listed as such.)
Nai
Plagueis himself, for starters, didn't show much respect for the "ancient" Sith teachings:"In secret he [Palpatine] continued his Sith training, accepting the absense of actual guidance from his Master as a sign that he was meant to stretch out on his own. An dso he did, delving into many of the ancient texts Plagueis dismissed as worthless, including treatises on Sith sorcery and holocron construction." - Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, iBook, Chapter 19: The Trials, p.218f.
Later in this post, you'll reference Plagueis's deferral to the ancient Sith with respect to prolonging the biological span: does he respect their teachings or not?
More accurately, Plagueis does not respect all ancient Sith teachings. Plagueis's conclusions are hardly binding; Sidious himself clearly found them to be worthwhile. But what's the old saying, "one man's trash is another man's treasure?"
More importantly, consider the two named elements: Sith sorcery & holocron construction. Plagueis consistently expresses disdain for Sith sorcery, which likely owes to his quiet admission that he lacked innate talent for it; similarly, he has no interest in holocron construction when he intends to live forever.
Nai
Plagueis specifically advised Sidious, to discover the dark side in his own unique way, shunning the use of Holocrons in the process:"But holocrons contain knowledge specific and idiosyncratic to each Sith who constructed them. Real knowledge is passed by Master to apprenticee in sessions such as this[...]" - Star Wars: Darth Plaguies, iBook, Chapter 13: Riders on the storm, p. 159
Plagueis did not, however, shun the holocrons because of their lack of relevant information. He told Sidious to consult them later because their knowledge and instruction were idiosyncratic to the gatekeepers and that true training is cultivated through the rapport between Master and apprentice, where information is not simply recorded, memorized, and forgotten, but ingrained.
Nai
On the same page, just a little before that, he tells Sidious that there is nothing to be found on the former Sith worlds but Jedi, treasure hunters and empty tombs.
We know from The Essential Guide to the Force that Sidious recovered important artifacts from two Sith worlds that had been previously described as barren (Khar Delba and Khar Shian). Plagueis may very well have lied to Sidious in order to dissuade him from seeking them out or because the order had previously made concerted efforts to recover what remained.
1/2
Nai
So, even though Sidious does study some of the stuff at hand during his career, one could still question, how "broad" his knowledge became and how much he had in comparison to beings like Vitiate.
We know from a myriad of sources that the Emperor's knowledge base was considerable, contrary to your suggestions otherwise. I don't need to remind you of that: you've seen them before, provided by a number of posters, and on more than one occasion.
Compared to Vitiate? We have evidence that the Emperor made concerted, exhaustive efforts to study the Force beyond conventional Jedi and Sith philosophies. If such proof exists for Vitiate, none has been presented here.
You conflate breadth with depth. It has been generously conceded by me that Vitiate's knowledge of the dark side may exceed the Emperor's in depth. I am not prepared to concede the possibility that Vitiate's knowledge of the Force exceeds the Emperor's in breadth.
Nai
Apparently, you've fallen victim to the way of thinking Lightsnake once introduced to the forum, which is a miraculous generation of knowledge ex nihilo for the Sith of Bane's order, especially Sidious.
Not really, but I would understand why that would be believed by someone who is convinced that Sidious was, despite the hilariously vast evidence to the contrary, an ignorant rube in the ways of the Force.
Nai
What do you think where there knowledge came from? Did they exclusively invent stuff in the 1000 years out of nowhere? No. They started with stuff whose progenitors were the Ancient Sith and apparently aspired to knowledge those former masters of the force had at their disposal.
No one suggested that the foundation of Bane's Sith did not derive from ancient Sith teachings. Given that general education (in-universe and out) involves building off the developments of progenitors, I should have thought this was obvious.
Nai
There are enough passages in the Plagueis novel to tell us that much (all books from the iBook version of the novel):"In Bane's age a Sith might have had to guard against an attempt at essence transfer by the deceased - a leap into the consciousness of the Sith who survived - but those times were long past and of no relevance; not since the teachings had been sabotaged, the technique lost" - Chapter 1: The Underworld, p.29
That would be the technique of essence transfer, which Sidious later recovered and mastered. How he achieved this in light of his glaring incompetence, woefully inadequate Force knowledge, and breathtaking lack of galactic resources with which to seek out alternative paths is a mystery to us all.
You'd almost need to rule the galaxy.
Nai
"If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this [extending their own lifes].[...]Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy." - Chapter 5: Homecoming, p. 65Right after that quote, Plagueis mentions that the essence transfer into another being or a clone (hint: Sidious) was a lesser surrogate for the aforementioned abilities.
Earlier in your post, you misrepresented Plagueis to determine that the contents of the holocrons were worthless. Now, you believe we should "accept the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons"?
Let's dispense with contortionist rhetoric in future posts.
Nai
And not that they have never discovered all knowledge the Ancient Sith had - they even lost most of the stuff the did found, thanks to Gravid:"[...]Gravid became convinced that the only way to safeguard the future of the Sith was to hide or destroy the lore that had been amassed through the generations[...]he had attempted as much, and was thought to have destroyed more than half of the repository[...]" - Chapter 25: The discreet charm of the meritocracy, p.281
We know that, during his reign, Sidious had access to "an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge" (The Dark Side Sourcebook). All Gravid's destruction proves is that the Sith had a surplus of knowledge and were hardly strapped for lore.
Nai
So, yes, I'm somewhat reluctant accept statements that happily proclaim beings within Bane's order to have a "broader knowledge" than members of the Ancient Sith Empire, especially a being that had lived more than 1000 years.
We're comparing the Emperor's knowledge of the Force to Vitiate's; this is a discussion of individuals, not collectives. The enduring error you commit is that you consistently compare one person (Sidious) with a collective (the Ancient Sith). As though the ancient Sith pooled the entirety of their resources, shared their power and knowledge openly and generously, that deceit, competition, and manipulation weren't virtues among their society as surely as they were among Bane's order.
No one has, to my knowledge, suggested that Sidious's knowledge of the dark side outstripped the entirety of the Ancient Sith or the entirety of anyone. Assuming it was true, that the Ancient Sith collectively had more knowledge than Sidious (which I would), that does not suggest that an Ancient Sith Lord has more knowledge than Sidious.
You habitually conflate the two scenarios when they are worlds apart.
Nai
If you think that Sidious could have learned a nice deal about the Force in decades, why, pray tell, can't you acknowledge the idea that somebody who had centuries to do the same would probably learn even more?
I did acknowledge the possibility. But I don't blindly accept that "> years = > mastery" as some predictable formula.
Bane reckons in Path of Destruction that Darth Revan's singular holocron outstripped the libraries available to the Brotherhood of Darkness on Korriban in terms of knowledge. Yet Revan was an extraordinarily young Sith Lord who spent a great deal of time actively consumed with galactic warfare. His "command of the Force" (mastery, not raw power) is periodically referred to as elite in the Revan novel. Yoda studied the Force for nine centuries and yet did not annihilate either Dooku or Palpatine in their duels. Dooku was two decades Palpatine's senior and yet did not question Sidious's mastery and the secrets at his command in Dark Rendezvous.
To suggest that time equates to mastery is simply not supported by canon. Indeed, it contradicts canon on a number of levels.
Ultimately, this thread is not about comparing the Emperor with Vitiate. If this debate is to continue, it must be done elsewhere. I've cautioned jadams3928 against going off on tangents, I would be remiss if I did the same thing. This topic is complex enough without a twenty-second discussion introduced.
2/2
Originally posted by jadams3928
No, your point doesn't stand, that's the point. The imperfections of the clones reduces the potency of Sidious' powers.
The quote Nai provided does not make that claim. It says the clones are more "vulnerable to the effects of the dark side," not that the powers are diminished when unleashed.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Compared to Vitiate? We have evidence that the Emperor made concerted, exhaustive efforts to study the Force beyond conventional Jedi and Sith philosophies. If such proof exists for Vitiate, none has been presented here.
In TOR, Vitiates true location for the majority of the game is on Voss, studying their unique Force abilities, such as the ability to perceive the future, which is how he knows the Hero of Tython will kill him.