Nephthys
Considering that Vitiates lightning was described as 'infinitely more power' than Nyriss' which is already one of the foremost displays of lightning in the mythos, I find that rather hard to believe.
Which is irrelevant when the statement in question is undeniably hyperbolic, as you yourself point out.
Nephthys
The Hero was noted by Vitiate himself to wield immense power and is the prophecised Champion of Light, outperforming his or her own master (who is btw a Jedi Council Member) as soon as they arrived at the Jedi Temple as a padawan.
No doubt that the Hero of Tython is a prodigious Force adept, but the Encyclopedia argues that he is only among the most talented in a couple of [centuries/generations?]. Combined with the fact that his Master (Orgus Din, yes?) has not been established by anyone to be an extraordinary Force user himself, I'm inclined to think this guy is hardly Skywalker material or anything truly extraordinary.
Nephthys
Rather like how despite being capable of turning beings to ash with his lightning Palpatine only briefly knocked Yoda out? Or how Yoda despite being able to throw tank carriers around with the Force caused no collatoral damage in his duel with Dooku and even seemed to strain to lift a girder (or whatever it was)? Or Luke doing anything in any fight below his touted Godhood? Or Abeloth not melting a city in every fight?It simply isn't smart to be blowing up buildings in a fight. Its a waste of energy that could be better harnessed and focused into a speartip. The truth is that TOR is a game, an MMO which means that they are limited in what they can do, so the fight occurs in gameplay, making the duel ambiguous. Maybe Vitiate created a mini-blackhole and the Knight shot lasers out of his eyes to plug it up. The fact is that T7 survived does not magically make Vitiates other feats go away. For all we know the Knight protected him from Vitiates Force Powers. Your point means nothing and does not dismiss the fact that Vitiate caused earthquakes and destroyed a huge building while dying.
No, my point means that such abilities are inconsequential against truly formidable Force users. No one suggests that the Emperor's ash-reducing lightning would manifest against enemies on the caliber of Yoda; Luke is bound by rigid moral standards for most of his duels. Vitiate causing earthquakes will hardly bag him a win when he was clearly unable to apply such monstrous power against a trained Force user.
Nephthys
The ability to create corporeal beings out of thin air does not impress you at all? In LotF this was considered a powerful dark side technique.
The ability depicted in LotF was completely different from Vitiate's manufactured clones. The former was invented by Vectivus millennia after Vitiate's death and involved creating doppelgangers that rivaled their targets in skill (e.g., the clone of Luke was said to be a fair match for the real Luke).
Nothing suggests that Vitiate's clones are remotely as potent.
Nephthys
Of course, I never claimed the ability would instantly grant him victory, I said that it was 'cool'. I've already described to you how this ability can be used to give him time to marshal his other devastating Force Powers. The ability to instantly create 6 or 7 clones to bog his opponent down should not be dismissed. After which is exceptional command of the core combat-related Force powers of TK and Force Lightning as well as his unparallelled ability to dominate the mind of his opponent pushes him well above above-average.
Given the ease with which the Hero and his astro-mech dealt with Vitiate's clones in the heart of a dark side nexus, I submit that any truly formidable Force user would be able to dispose of them with laughable ease. His telekinetic and lightning powers are similarly suspect when the entire world bristles with dark side energy (per the official website) and the Temple is an unusually potent nexus of energy.
On neutral ground, there is no reason to believe he could replicate such powers.
Nephthys
My point is that the Emperor is a noted scholar with over a thousand years worth of study in the dark side under his belt. There are many allusions in TOR (the galactic history entry on Dromund Kaas as I recall) and Revan that the Emperor spent most of his hundreds of years worth of spare time conducting experiments and rituals and gaining a massive base of Force Knowledge. As I recall, you are the strongest proponent that "Only through intense study and dedicated training could one become more proficient in harnessing the power of the Force.” Considering that Vitiate is logically the most knowledgeable Force User in the mythos given the length of his study and training, I don't see how you could dismiss him so casually.
Conflating time studied with Force mastery does not, actually, represent itself in the mythos. Yoda studied the Force for nine centuries; Dooku for eight decades; Plagueis for fifteen or so; Palpatine for nine. By your reckoning, Yoda's knowledge should far outstrip Plagueis's; Dooku's and Sidious's should be comparable. Someone like Bane should lag even farther behind. Learning rates and quality and breadth of sources must invariably factor in.
Nephthys
BTW, I noticed you mentioning Vitiate killing 12 Dark Council members at once in a flash of light in your debate with me-2. What was the consensus on this feat. It seems to suggest to me that the Emperor is not weak in combat as you think.
There was no combat, per the text. They arrived at the citadel and dropped dead. There's ample reason to believe that this is the product of a ritual.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Conflating time studied with Force mastery does not, actually, represent itself in the mythos. Yoda studied the Force for nine centuries; Dooku for eight decades; Plagueis for fifteen or so; Palpatine for nine. By your reckoning, Yoda's knowledge should far outstrip Plagueis's; Dooku's and Sidious's should be comparable. Someone like Bane should lag even farther behind. Learning rates and quality and breadth of sources must invariably factor in.
There was no combat, per the text. They arrived at the citadel and dropped dead. There's ample reason to believe that this is the product of a ritual. [/B]And there's ample reason to believe Vitiate instantly killed both dark councils.
It should also be kept in mind that the Sith Emperor overwhelmed Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga aboard a space station; nuetral setting in other words.
Their are more examples which prove that just by standing on dark side nexus grants no significant advantage to a Sith unless the individual actually uses it for power.
Originally posted by jadams3928
You have to take into account what material was studied, the amount of materials available, the force potential of the student, etc.
Exactly. There's far more to it than just "x number of years."
Originally posted by jadams3928
As far as I understand, Yoda didn't actually STUDY much in his 900 years. He learned about the dark side here and there.
That seems unlikely, in my opinion. The official website says he is "wise and powerful in the ways of the Force" and spent much time "pondering the mysteries of the Force." But I don't have any of my sources on hand, so I can't corroborate any of that elsewhere. The point being that Yoda doesn't strike me as a guy who sat on his ass and twiddled his thumbs for nine centuries.
Now, I agree he very probably didn't pursue knowledge with the thirst of Plagueis, Sidious, and Vitiate, but then as the Grand Master of the Jedi Order with unlimited access to the Jedi archives and libraries... everything he wanted to know was literally at his fingertips.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Vitiate studied TECHNIQUES, rituals, everything the dark side had to offer. He actively pursued knowledge, as did Sidious, as did Plagueis, etc. This is where the Sith are superior to the jedi. On almost all occasions, force knowledge equates to force power.
Right, but again, it's not as simple as saying "x number of years" translates to "y level of Force mastery." Vitiate may very well be the foremost expert on the dark side in the mythos, but he likely didn't have the breadth of knowledge that Sidious (or even Plagueis) possessed, who actively studied as many Force cults as possible.
Otherwise, we run into a veritable trainwreck. Bane and Revan, relatively young, would rank... exceptionally low on the proverbial totem pole.
Originally posted by jadams3928
And there's ample reason to believe Vitiate instantly killed both dark councils.
Well, not really. He didn't demonstrate that kind of power elsewhere, especially if the Dark Council is as badass as had been suggested elsewhere.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That seems unlikely, in my opinion. The official website says he is "wise and powerful in the ways of the Force" and spent much time "pondering the mysteries of the Force." But I don't have any of my sources on hand, so I can't corroborate any of that elsewhere. The point being that Yoda doesn't strike me as a guy who sat on his ass and twiddled his thumbs for nine centuries.
Now, I agree he very probably didn't pursue knowledge with the thirst of Plagueis, Sidious, and Vitiate, but then as the Grand Master of the Jedi Order with unlimited access to the Jedi archives and libraries... everything he wanted to know was literally at his fingertips.
Right, but again, it's not as simple as saying "x number of years" translates to "y level of Force mastery." Vitiate may very well be the foremost expert on the dark side in the mythos, but he likely didn't have the breadth of knowledge that Sidious (or even Plagueis) possessed, who actively studied as many Force cults as possible.
Well, not really. He didn't demonstrate that kind of power elsewhere, especially if the Dark Council is as badass as had been suggested elsewhere. [/B]
Originally posted by jadams3928
Fail, the TOR Encyclopedia calls it the biggest force nexus the galaxy will ever see.
Fail. It's from the novel you just supposedly quoted. It would behoove you to actually learn the material before making a fool out of yourself on here.
See no farther point of talking with a lier, who simply makes things up and even dares accusing others of doing it.
Fail. Vitiate wanted to keep his history in Nathema hidden from others. It revealed his true nature. Nathema was forbidden planet, remember?He was the only survivor. There were no witnesses to know what happened. He is the only possible source of the rumor.
I do not trust member (The_Tempest) on this aspect; he doesn't have TOR encyclopedia and his statement can be made-up;
Also, Vitiate stripped Lord Dramath from his powers and mind at the age of 10. This feat alone proves my point that he was natural with these abilities.
Doesn't matters; he had been fighting a war. Labelling battle-hardened heroes 'amateurs' is stupid.
You cannot say this with certainty. You didn't write the story; did you?That image was shown for a reason. Telepathic powers are supposed to be invisible.
Fail. That book isn't the end of it all. Vitiate's command of the Force further improved afterwards.
Fail. How good is Vader with telepathic powers?Strength alone doesn't assures defence against everything/technique. Try to understand this.
specially, surviving in a Force-less world for a long duration is a big feat for any Force-wielder.
After the war, both of them were stupid enough to attempt to assassinate a Sith Emperor in the heart of his Empire.
Once again! You wrote the story?
Easy to say. Vitiate's FLS cannot be blocked with a lightsaber; sorry. Also, Vitiate collapsed that Dark Temple with his telekinetic abilities (in spirit form and extremely weakened condition) where he encountered Hero of Tython for the second time. Try to comprehend what Vitiate could do in his original body. Revan only managed to slightly budge an individual (empowered by the Sith Emperor) front on with his blast of power; such is the power of Vitiate.
That it wasn’t his original body or that he would be more powerful is yet to be proved, so no need to assume that either. Also, as shown by Bane and Sidious original body cannot exist without essence. The fact that in later book Annihilation there is no Emperor doesn’t help either.
Vitiate demonstrated the capability to use his shadows simultaneously during combat when he came down to confront Hero of Tython himself. The Jedi was getting help from his droid as well.
Genius! You are so full of misconceptions. I destroyed your attempt to belittle Revan before. And you haven't learned anything.Keep relishing your delusions.
Originally posted by Arhael
Hahahaha! Encyclopedia > book? Three different Force users felt the same thing: ABSENCE IN THE FORCE, which means there is no darkside nexus.
You lost it here completely it's not in the book. You are the only one talking bullshit.
The only number mentioned comes from Nyriss:
"After all, what could one man do against a hundred Sith Lords?"See no farther point of talking with a lier, who simply makes things up and even dares accusing others of doing it.
He was the only survivor. There were no witnesses to know what happened. He is the only possible source of the rumor.
Yet, you seem to be completely in accord with jadams3928 despite him making things up and lying about sources.
I can because nothing supports your assumption and every source supports opposite. Moreover, mind domination doesn’t knock people unconscious. Those Jedi clearly got handled by lightning.
He was already Sith for 1000 years at that point. He must be really dumb Sith, if he didn’t reach his prime by that time.
It all proves that Marek was immensely powerful at that point. Same cannot be said about Revan and Malak.
You are a joke. It is no feat and Forceless planet can’t kill.
I didn’t. Neither you to assume that he can use mind domination and lightning simultaneously. If he is so powerful why would he even use lightning on Jedi team? Your assumption is absurd and unsupported. Stop bringing it up because you can’t prove it.
More bullshit…
His lightning is blockable. Even Tol Braga could block his lightning for a while. JK blocked his lightning on several occasions.
Bringing up collapsing that temple is useless and pointless because it didn’t help him win JK. He did it after losing fight, so this feat is useless and it looks desperate that you needed to mention it at all.
That it wasn’t his original body or that he would be more powerful is yet to be proved, so no need to assume that either. Also, as shown by Bane and Sidious original body cannot exist without essence. The fact that in later book Annihilation there is no Emperor doesn’t help either.
And after you kill all shadows player approaches real emperor, who was sitting on his throne and did nothing. Lol at mentioning droid.13 year old children should no longer be allowed to post here.Keep relishing your delusions. [/B]
Originally posted by Arhael
He was the only survivor. There were no witnesses to know what happened. He is the only possible source of the rumor.
Some discovered Nathema and explored the world on their own.
Originally posted by Arhael
Yet, you seem to be completely in accord with jadams3928 despite him making things up and lying about sources.
Originally posted by Arhael
You would need to back it up with some other source than Nyriss’.
Originally posted by Arhael
It does. Kenobi by the time of AotC was battle hardened Jedi Master, yet, he was no match for Dooku in sabers. Revan wasn’t even Master.
Originally posted by Arhael
I can because nothing supports your assumption and every source supports opposite. Moreover, mind domination doesn’t knock people unconscious. Those Jedi clearly got handled by lightning.
Originally posted by Nephthys:I
From Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game – Champions of the Force (Card: Cloud Minds). Its artistic license to allow the audience to see whats happening, like how TK is usually portrayed as blue energy in the media such as Force Unleashed and TOR.
Forgot this post already?
When Din's spirit appeared, he stated that the Emperor clouded the minds of the Jedi in darkness. During this statement; a flashback was provided in which Sith Emperor was shown bombarding the Jedi with purplish energies.
Therefore, on the basis of this hint, it is possible that the Sith Emperor used his telepathic powers and Force Lightning simultaneously during this encounter.
Originally posted by Arhael
He was already Sith for 1000 years at that point. He must be really dumb Sith, if he didn’t reach his prime by that time.
Vitiate's plan to transform himself in to an omnipotent being was actually foiled.
After second confrontation with Revan; Vitiate began to demonstrate Abeloth like abilities; using Essence Transfer to great degree and spreading his reach in to the Jedi Order itself from another part of the Galaxy by planting his Children within it. In addition, Vitiate demonstrated some cool new abilities during his second confrontation with Hero of Tython.
Originally posted by Arhael
It all proves that Marek was immensely powerful at that point. Same cannot be said about Revan and Malak.
As an example, Revan developed counter-measures against different kinds of threats and Force powers.
Originally posted by Arhael
You are a joke. It is no feat and Forceless planet can’t kill.
Originally posted by Arhael
Fixed.
Originally posted by Arhael
I didn’t. Neither you to assume that he can use mind domination and lightning simultaneously. If he is so powerful why would he even use lightning on Jedi team? Your assumption is absurd and unsupported. Stop bringing it up because you can’t prove it.
Originally posted by Arhael
More bullshit…
His lightning is blockable. Even Tol Braga could block his lightning for a while.
To further support my point, here is another example: Malgus once unleashed a very intense and powerful blast of Force Lightning against a Jedi Master on Aldeeran which the latter failed to contain even with two lightsabers and died.
Originally posted by Arhael
JK blocked his lightning on several occasions.
Originally posted by Arhael
Bringing up collapsing that temple is useless and pointless because it didn’t help him win JK. He did it after losing fight, so this feat is useless and it looks desperate that you needed to mention it at all.
But one thing is certain that Vitiate demonstrated great power during this encounter; collapsing the Jedi Temple and causing Earthquakes in nearby surroundings. And he did this in his weakened state.
Originally posted by Arhael
That it wasn’t his original body or that he would be more powerful is yet to be proved, so no need to assume that either. Also, as shown by Bane and Sidious original body cannot exist without essence. The fact that in later book Annihilation there is no Emperor doesn’t help either.
Sidious couldn't preserve his original body because he lost it after Vader's betrayal. After this event, he started looking for another body which would be durable enough to match his original one.
Vitiate's story isn't complete yet. If he is not featured in one new book; doesn't means, he is gone.
Originally posted by Arhael
And after you kill all shadows player approaches real emperor, who was sitting on his throne and did nothing. Lol at mentioning droid.
The fight has two phases; in the first phase; Vitiate sits on the throne. In the second phase, he leaves the throne and goes down to confront the Jedi himself. And in both phases, he summons his duplicates. In the second phase, he fights the Jedi himself along with his duplicates for a while.
Originally posted by Arhael
Keep relishing your delusions.
Originally posted by jadams3928
What does "mysteries of the force" mean? We know scholars like Sidious and Vitiate absorbed all the knowledge they could at a rapid pace, which is why they were able to create their own techniques. For a Jedi, studying the mysteries of the force doesn't necessarily mean studying techniques. It could mean studying various philosophies, being one with the force, all that hippie crap. Yoda was NOT a scholar though.
We've already established that Yoda did not exert as much effort in collecting and examining Force knowledge as did the Emperor and Vitiate. But the point is that it is extremely unlikely that Yoda was some sort of neophyte or amateur in his knowledge of the Force across nine centuries.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Ah the grandmaster ot the Jedi. Who thought the sith were extinct for 1,000 years. Who thought the sith holocrons they had in the Temple were real and not forgeries. The Jedi have a history of lacking vision, especially of what's right under their very nose.
Yoda's failure to detect and prevent the Emperor's political conspiracies has no bearing on his knowledge of the Force.
Originally posted by jadams3928
I'm not so sure about that. Vitiate was both a scholar and had the luxury of living for over 1,400 years. What he learned of the Jedi, he got out of Revan and his "children". I'm not saying he had the most force knowledge accessible to him (Sidious), but he was very close.
That Vitiate was a scholar with unparalleled longevity is not in question. What is in question is whether or not that translates to superior mastery of the Force. Taken to its conclusions, Nephthys's argument would require that Vitiate have an exponentially superior command of the Force than do the Emperor and other Force scholars when that does not seem the case. The saga is rife with examples of relatively young and inexperienced adepts possessing a mastery and understanding of the Force disproportionate to their youth. Bane and Revan are two of the more prominent examples. Nyriss was a scholar par excellence and Revan manhandled her with ease. Meetra Surik remarked that Revan's command of the Force was greater than any she'd ever met: this woman, who stood toe-to-toe with Jedi Masters and scholars (among them Traya).
Mine was not an intent to undermine Vitiate's knowledge but to point out that Nephthys's implications ring completely hollow.
Originally posted by jadams3928
He didn't have to. Taking down 9 of the most powerful sith lords in the empire, is impressive. Doing it twice is even more impressive.
With every other character we constantly question the circumstances and distinguish between natural abilities and those that are the product of rituals and preparation. Vitiate will not be an exception here.
The idea that Vitiate could snap his fingers and kill nine extraordinarily powerful Sith Lords without aid of nexus or preparation is grossly inconsistent with all of his other depictions in the same sources that give us a much more realistic portrayal.
The last time we had a major discussion about Vitiate, you said you had a hard time swallowing (lol) the idea that the Emperor could mindfvck billions on Byss and countless others on Coruscant when he didn't do so with Mace, Yoda, and the others. I explained to you that Sidious's efforts were, in all probability, the product of a complex ritual that afforded him abilities he would not otherwise have in a combat scenario.
What I am arguing here is the exact same thing, except this time it's Vitiate whose feats are being scrutinized, not the Emperor's. And the conclusion is the same: Vitiate never remotely displays such awesome power in combat. Why would he look upon Surik "with hesitation and uncertainty" (Revan) if he could just wave his hand and she'd drop dead?
The context affords us a logical alternative: he knew of the conspiracy, determined when they'd attack, and had made prior preparations. That all this took place on a world that "bristles" with dark side energy (TOR website) and Vitiate has been conclusively proven to conduct constant rituals edges the interpretation in my favor, I think.
I'm uninterested in progressing any further if we're going to apply different rules and standards to different characters. I have provided ample basis as to why we should accept the conclusion that it was the product of a ritual. You have not explained why it is logical to favor the alternative.
Please do so and let's wrap this sucker up.
During my game-play thus far, I saw Din in action only once.
He collapsed the entrance of a cave with the Force on Tython at the very begining of the adventure.
Here is the image:
Din, by no means, is a slouch.
And yet their were Force-wielders in this era who could ragdoll Din around.
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The game itself clears lot of misconceptions and things. If people are not playing it; not my fault.
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Hero of Tython is Luke's equivalent in ancient times. This guy just tanks through everything.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Right, but again, it's not as simple as saying "x number of years" translates to "y level of Force mastery." Vitiate may very well be the foremost expert on the dark side in the mythos, but he likely didn't have the breadth of knowledge that Sidious (or even Plagueis) possessed, who actively studied as many Force cults as possible.
This is quite questionable, provided that many of the "Force cults" that Sidious studied were merely fractions of the destroyed Sith Empire or based upon the teachings of that very Sith. Those who weren't, given their nigh nonexistant impact on galactic history, probably never developed teachings / abilities that could have been of importance. After all, the entire Darth Plagueis novel doesn't give a single hint to those force sects, but complains more than once about the lost of (Sith) knowledge, specifically techniques that Plagueis and Sidious were searching for.
Originally posted by Nai
This is quite questionable, provided that many of the "Force cults" that Sidious studied were merely fractions of the destroyed Sith Empire
Such as?
Originally posted by Nai
or based upon the teachings of that very Sith.
This assumes that in the millennia between Vitiate's reign and Sidious's that none of the Force cults modified their knowledge base either through development or refinement.
Originally posted by Nai
Those who weren't, given their nigh nonexistant impact on galactic history, probably never developed teachings / abilities that could have been of importance.
It does not follow that an organization's (or individual's, for that matter) political or historical significance is a reflection of the quality of their Force teachings.
The Aing-Tii developed the ability to fold space and flow-walk, not to mention fighting-sight; The Fallanassi developed highly advanced illusions and the memory rub technique; The Baran Do sages possessed techniques that enabled Force users to manipulate the weather and channel electricity and conceal oneself from detection, etc.
None of them achieved any real impact on galactic history (at least directly).
Originally posted by Nai
After all, the entire Darth Plagueis novel doesn't give a single hint to those force sects,
Plagueis's personal library on Aborah, which is by 11-4D's reckoning finer than any short of Obroa-skai and the Jedi Temple, carries texts regarding the Sorcerers of Tund, Followers of Palawa, Chratos Academy, and the Order of the Dai Bendu (Chapter 5: Homecoming; page 61 on my Nook for PC edition).
Originally posted by Nai
but complains more than once about the lost of (Sith) knowledge, specifically techniques that Plagueis and Sidious were searching for.
True, but that was knowledge lost between Bane and Plagueis, which means it is very possible Vitiate himself did not possess it. Not to mention that Sidious had decades after the novel to recover such information. Among the most important techniques was that of the essence transfer, which we know Sidious to have recovered during his reign as Emperor.
Some discovered Nathema and explored the world on their own.
He has TOR encyclopedia.
Why should I? Nyriss was in a good position to know the details of this encounter.
You 'assume' that your interpretation is correct. You didn't write SWTOR story. Sorry.
Forgot this post already?First, that post proves nothing, in cut scene we see that they get overpowered by lightning and lose consciousness as result.When Din's spirit appeared, he stated that the Emperor clouded the minds of the Jedi in darkness. During this statement; a flashback was provided in which Sith Emperor was shown bombarding the Jedi with purplish energies.
Therefore, on the basis of this hint, it is possible that the Sith Emperor used his telepathic powers and Force Lightning simultaneously during this encounter.
Second, it wasn't flashback of the fight. It just showed Emperor and JK with no background and has no similarity to fight scene at all.
Therefore, you still have naked assumption.
Vitiate's plan to transform himself in to an omnipotent being was actually foiled.After second confrontation with Revan; Vitiate began to demonstrate Abeloth like abilities; using Essence Transfer to great degree and spreading his reach in to the Jedi Order itself from another part of the Galaxy by planting his Children within it. In addition, Vitiate demonstrated some cool new abilities during his second confrontation with Hero of Tython.
Demonstrating new abilities doesn’t mean that his Force attacks became more potent since, it just means that he gained new skills or simply demonstrated the skills he already had but didn’t demonstrate before.
You are grasping at straws here. Being immensely powerful does not automatically grants immunity against all Force powers. One has to master different kinds of defensive abilities to combat different kinds of threats.Not with mind domination. Force user needs to be able to grasp at right emotions, memories and reasons.
He turned back toward Lord Nyax and struggled to find the words to express his thought. "I... stand... in... your... way."
It was the Jedi way. Jedi did not attack. But to position oneself in the path of a violent aggressor who would not yield achieved the same result.
All he could ever do as leader of the wartime Jedi was lead them into the path of the enemy. That was, Luke realized, perhaps his greatest limitation, and in struggling against it without understanding it, he may have hampered the Jedi effectiveness against the enemy.
But once recognized and accepted, it was also perhaps his greatest strength. Whether by accident or design, by his own will or by the permutations of the Force, he had always found his way into the path of the great enemies of all things living.
And here he was again. "I stand in your way," Luke repeated, and was pleased that he had regained control over his voice. "What you see, you will not achieve."
”As you see Jedi needs to have right state of mind, emotions, experience and memories. Revan and Malak at that point went through war, which only ****ed up their mentality and brought them closer to darkside. Marek on the other hand has already been through darkside and turned to lightside, he already went through his trials, Sidious was able to dominate him by exposing his hatered for Vader, which he overcame as well. But for Revan it was just a beginning of the story.
As an example, Revan developed counter-measures against different kinds of threats and Force powers.Mind naming them?
Genius, a Force-sensitive person can die in the absence of the Force itself. This is official canon.Bullshit. Force-sensitive can die, only if Force is drained from him and still not in all cases.
4 Jedi confronted Vitiate. Would he take chance?Of course he wouldn’t. That’s why he unleashed Force lightning instead of mind domination. His attempt to mind dominate single Jedi (Revan) failed, surely he wouldn’t be stupid to try out four Jedi simultaneously. It is much easier and safer to overpower them with lightning like Revan. And JK’s quote on breaking from mind domination proves that they were overpowered: “The Emperor overpowered us, Master Braga and the others.”
You are spouting BS. Those Jedi attempted to contain FLS with their lightsabers but all failed; reason is that the bombardment was overwhelming in intensity and scale.To further support my point, here is another example: Malgus once unleashed a very intense and powerful blast of Force Lightning against a Jedi Master on Aldeeran which the latter failed to contain even with two lightsabers and died.
Both JK and Tol Braga could block it for a while and even made several steps forward, that alone shows you wrong. JK alone later was blocking his lightning, which proves you wrong again. Moreover, you can’t use this example as prove because you assume that it wasn’t FSL alone but with mind domination.
As for your example with Malgus, it is not accurate because Aryn(that’s the name of the Jedi) did not die. Malgus spared her life because she spared life of his girlfriend. Aryn returned to her friend, they finally kissed and lived happy ever after. Moreover, the same book proves you wrong because, when Aryn was enraged, she resisted his lightning completely:
“She took the hilt of Master Zallow’s lightsaber in her off hand, crouched, and bounded into a leap toward him. He watched her come and at the apex of the leap’s arc, he thrust his left hand at her, roaring, and veins of Force lightning squirmed toward her. Ready for it, she activated Master Zallow’s lightsaber, used it to form an X with her own, and intercepted the lightning on the two blades. His power met her will. The lightning twisted around the glowing blades. The force of it stopped her downward descent and held her aloft in the air for a moment, suspended on a column built of the dark side. And then she overcame it. The lightning dissipated to nothingness and she, unharmed by it, fell straight down, landing on her feet atop a shifting pile of rubble and deactivating Master Zallow’s blade”.
Those were concentrated bursts of Force Lightning; not FLS.
But one thing is certain that Vitiate demonstrated great power during this encounter; collapsing the Jedi Temple and causing Earthquakes in nearby surroundings. And he did this in his weakened state.
Original body is always the best one for channeling power.Sidious couldn't preserve his original body because he lost it after Vader's betrayal. After this event, he started looking for another body which would be durable enough to match his original one.
Abeloth in body of non-sensitive was decaying much faster, yet, in that body she nearly mind dominated Tahiri and subdued her with TK. Tahiri that resisted mind domination of Lord Nyax better than Luke and Mara and could form Force barrier potent to tank huge explosions. So no, it doesn’t matter which body.
Recheck the fight; the finalized version of it.The fight has two phases; in the first phase; Vitiate sits on the throne. In the second phase, he leaves the throne and goes down to confront the Jedi himself. And in both phases, he summons his duplicates. In the second phase, he fights the Jedi himself along with his duplicates for a while.
Correction. He claims that he has and never posted a single quote. His claim that Vitiate mind dominated 8000 Sith Lord is outright lie.
Lord Vitiate returned to his homeworld while the rest of the Sith Empire waged the Great Hyperspace War against the Republic. When the hasty Sith Offensive ended in failure, the Empire collapsed- but Lord Vitiate was stronger than ever. He bid every surviving sith to unite or die at the hands of the jedi. Eight thousand sith lords gathered on Medrias and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.
Page 161. Move along now, child.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which is irrelevant when the statement in question is undeniably hyperbolic, as you yourself point out.
No it isn't irrelevent. We discount hyperbole because of the ambiguity of scale it has. In this case the statement is only ambiguous on the degree to which Vitiates lightning was more powerful than Nyriss'. Clearly it is not 'infinitely' greater, but there is not question that the quote means that his lightning was superior to hers, and to a great degree.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No doubt that the Hero of Tython is a prodigious Force adept, but the Encyclopedia argues that he is only among the most talented in a couple of [centuries/generations?]. Combined with the fact that his Master (Orgus Din, yes?) has not been established by anyone to be an extraordinary Force user himself, I'm inclined to think this guy is hardly Skywalker material or anything truly extraordinary.
I doubt that it says that he is 'only' that. It says that s/he is the most talented in a couple generations. This does not preclude him/her from being the most talented for the generations before that as well, or that the Hero is simply vastly more powerful than they are talented. Besides which, the Hero's feats speak for themselves. If there were superior Jedi in the generations before them, that would only make them more powerful, not the Hero less.
Legend has so kindly provided us with a feat for Master Din. I would estimate that the amount of rock there is equal to the pillars that Dooku lifted in his training with Savage. Not an inconsiderable amount. Furthermore, the databook describes him as 'A grizzled Jedi Master who's fought more battles with the Sith than any other living member of the order' and a survivor of the Sacking of Coruscant. It is also illogical to assume that he is weak in skills given that it also descibes him as 'a man of action' who 'prefers to leave meditation, debate and diplomacy to the Jedi Council while he goes out and gets things done.' Given this and his status as a Jedi Council member, we should not dismiss him. The fact that the Hero showed up on Tython and outperformed the most battle experienced member of the Jedi Order on the first day of being there is quite staggering, and speaks of the Hero's power.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, my point means that such abilities are inconsequential against truly formidable Force users.
Then why not discount all feats and ignore all powerful Force uses since they are clearly not able to be used in actual combat?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No one suggests that the Emperor's ash-reducing lightning would manifest against enemies on the caliber of Yoda;
Why not? Yoda does not have innate electrical or force lightning resistance. Were he to not defend himself, which he doesn't appear to in any way, why would he not be reduced to ash by Sidious' full-power lightning?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Luke is bound by rigid moral standards for most of his duels. Vitiate causing earthquakes will hardly bag him a win when he was clearly unable to apply such monstrous power against a trained Force user.
But the is nothing indicating that he wasn't able to apply it in his battle with the Hero. The mere fact that he lost does not show that at all. I'm really not seeing the basis for your claim here.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The ability depicted in LotF was completely different from Vitiate's manufactured clones. The former was invented by Vectivus millennia after Vitiate's death and involved creating doppelgangers that rivaled their targets in skill (e.g., the clone of Luke was said to be a fair match for the real Luke).Nothing suggests that Vitiate's clones are remotely as potent.
True, I had forgotten that aspect of them. The technique is still useful however.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given the ease with which the Hero and his astro-mech dealt with Vitiate's clones in the heart of a dark side nexus, I submit that any truly formidable Force user would be able to dispose of them with laughable ease.
I submit that you again have no basis for that claim. That they did not pose a threat to the Hero and T7 does not suddenly translate into them being utterly inconsequential. They kept them busy, which is the only thing I have ever claimed them to be able to do.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
His telekinetic and lightning powers are similarly suspect when the entire world bristles with dark side energy (per the official website)
The darkside manifests on Dromund Kaas as lightning storms. There is no indication that it also manifests as a darkside nexus. Although, a question: Would you say that if they fought in the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas, that Vitiate could defeat Sidious?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
and the Temple is an unusually potent nexus of energy.
Which is again irrelevant give the Emperor's weakened condition before the duel and that afterwards he had just expended his energy in his fight with the Hero, was noticably exhausted and oh yeah, was at deaths door.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
On neutral ground, there is no reason to believe he could replicate such powers.
If we get a thread on neutral grounds, we'll argue that, I'm sure.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Conflating time studied with Force mastery does not, actually, represent itself in the mythos. Yoda studied the Force for nine centuries; Dooku for eight decades; Plagueis for fifteen or so; Palpatine for nine. By your reckoning, Yoda's knowledge should far outstrip Plagueis's; Dooku's and Sidious's should be comparable. Someone like Bane should lag even farther behind. Learning rates and quality and breadth of sources must invariably factor in.
Where does it say that Yoda studied for nine centuries? I believe that Yoda's past is actually quite obscured, so that we do not actually know how much time he spent as a Jedi. Either way, the comparison isn't quite adequate, as Yoda had other duties such as the training of students to occupy him in his time as a Jedi, whereas Vitiate is specifically noted to do little else but study the Force, and built the infrastructure of the Sith Empire so that other people could run the show while he studied the Force. You should also remember that the darkside heightens learning times. What took Yoda centuries to learn could be learnt by Sidious in decades due to this factor of the dark side. Its the quick way to power, remember? Vitiate, having both the darksides penchant for increased learning speed, millennia of study and as Borborad pointed out, a wealth of material logically is the most knowledgable Force User in history.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
There was no combat, per the text. They arrived at the citadel and dropped dead. There's ample reason to believe that this is the product of a ritual.
Fair enough. I suppose there isn't any way to be sure.