P5 Scott & Emma vs. Voidtry & FP Kuurth

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not really because the issue specifies what exactly Xavier helped. He helped her gain access to the White Room which was stated but did not help with the lobotomy because he wasn't assaulted by the Void, Emma only was. Secondly, the machine that Dark Beast used on Nate Grey and Beast took their mutations away. Beast started losing his fur and Nate Grey lost his telepathy and most of his telekinesis. Xavier was drained tremendously and Emma's telepathy is amped by the Phoenix Force here.

That's one of the inconsistencies I was referring to. Another inconsistency was that Emma was able to locate Hope but Cyclops wasn't. And the fact that they required Emma to blow up the Sinister telepathic hive mind not any of the others. But if you want to go by that then Namor did not display any telepathy in the entire crossover. Cyclops was the only person who displayed telepathy sometimes the others did not suffer the inconsistency. It was established that the P5 were different. Cyclops also had super strength. Emma and Magik didn't.

Not to mention that Cyclops without telepathy and non-amped contained a sliver of the Void.

P5 Emma said they had an affair telepathically, "I thought about having an affair with Namor. We thought about it. And being telepathic in the way we are now... that's all it took." Since Emma was already telepathic and she's speaking in the plural, she could only be referring to how P5 Namor was also telepathic. Also, Emma definitely had superstrength, she kicked the holy crap out of Thor.

They're not dealing with a sliver of the Void here.

Originally posted by ODG
I'm not really following what you're trying to say. It comes off as, "Xavier didn't really help, yes Xavier helped sort of, but he really didn't."

P5 Emma said they had an affair telepathically, "I thought about having an affair with Namor. We thought about it. And being telepathic in the way we are now... that's all it took." Since Emma was already telepathic and she's speaking in the plural, she could only be referring to how P5 Namor was also telepathic. Also, Emma definitely had superstrength, she kicked the holy crap out of Thor.

They're not dealing with a sliver of the Void here.

To make it clearer he helped her while he was in a very weakened state. That crossover was shown to last over a week Marvel Time and he was sapped of his powers over that period of time.

"Being telepathic in the way we are". She's referring to the Phoenix Hive mind, which was how the Phoenix 5 were linked to each other. This was something Gillen mentioned in his books throughout AvX and he even talked about it on his forumspring IRRC. Remember during Sinister London how they all ignored Storm, Magneto and Danger and met as a hive mind? That was due to the connection they shared as Phoenix hosts. That's how they were able to finish each others sentences. That does not necessarily mean he had the same telepathic capabilities as a telepath. That just means they shared a unique bond as Phoenix. Heck, the affair even explains the nature of their bond. They didn't have an affair they only thought about having an affair and due to the unique bond they share it became reality. "Our thoughts are like ticking timebombs" I think that is the line that she used after she tells Cyclops about the affair.

He didn't demonstrate any thought casting either, and niether did Magik or Colossus. That's why Emma had to tell him where the Avengers were hiding.

Emma had her diamond form amped. In her human form she had normal human strength. And Emma only kicked the crap out of Thor in her diamond form. Cyclops actually had his human strength amped which is how he blocked Thors hammer.

Cyclops is amped by the Phoenix too. Also another thing to keep is that the Phoenix 5 never dedicated their full concentration to anything they did. Namor took on the Avengers while having psychic sex, Scott and Emma had dinner, Cyclops was elsewhere in the last issue. They were all doing other things as well.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
To make it clearer he helped her while he was in a very weakened state. That crossover was shown to last over a week Marvel Time and he was sapped of his powers over that period of time.

"Being telepathic in the way we are". She's referring to the Phoenix Hive mind, which was how the Phoenix 5 were linked to each other which was something Gillen mentioned in his books throughout AvX. Remember during Sinister London how they all ignored Storm, Magneto and Danger and met as a hive mind? That was due to the connection they shared as Phoenix hosts. That's how they were able to finish each others sentences. That does not necessarily mean he had the same telepathic capabilities as a telepath. That just means they shared a unique bond as Phoenix. He didn't demonstrate any, and niether did Magik or Colossus.

This doesn't disprove anything... in fact, it proves they're all telepathic. I don't see semantics clouding what Emma said plainly in no uncertain terms, they're telepathic. I don't even get why you're so opposed to the idea that they possessed telepathy, they had the Phoenixforce. They held telepathic concerts, could talk to each other at long ranges, have telepathic affairs with each other, and said they were telepathic. I mean... are you going to also try to deny they had telekinesis?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Emma had her diamond form amped. In her human form she had normal human strength. And Emma only kicked the crap out of Thor in her diamond form. Cyclops actually had his human strength amped which is how he blocked Thors hammer.

Cyclops is amped by the Phoenix too. Also another thing to keep is that the Phoenix 5 never dedicated their full concentration to anything they did. Namor took on the Avengers while having an affair, Scott and Emma had dinner, Cyclops was elsewhere in the last issue. They were all doing other things as well.

I don't even get what you're arguing about anymore.

Originally posted by ODG
Would be nice to see some scans of this as I'm not going to even bother rereading those issues. In any event, so what? Xavier was going toe-to-toe with P2 Scott. Dealt with P5 Namor with ease. I wouldn't be surprised if a weakened Xavier still stacks up better against P5 Scott in straight tp.

I'm not scanning everything let me know what exactly you'd like to see scans of. The Utopia crossover? They have a two page spread showing Daken going Clubbing while acting as a Dark Avenger. And they show what he did from Monday to Sunday.

The Sinister London thing. It's in Uncanny X-Men. Just let me know what exactly you're curious about.

BTW Xavier didn't go toe to toe with P2 Cyclops, he had Captain America's shield and Doctor Stranges magic protecting him (See UXM 18 for the later.) Thor, 2 Hulks, Psylocke and Rachel were there too. Not to mention the fact that throughout all of this none of the Phoenix Five were going for the kill as per Cyclops orders. Cyclops even shot Emma down when she suggested raising the world and starting again. The struggle was keeping their emotions in check so they don't do something rash.

This doesn't disprove anything... in fact, it proves they're all telepathic. I don't see semantics clouding what Emma said plainly in no uncertain terms, they're telepathic. I don't even get why you're so opposed to the idea that they possessed telepathy, they had the Phoenixforce. They held telepathic concerts, could talk to each other at long ranges, have telepathic affairs with each other, and said they were telepathic. I mean... are you going to also try to deny they had telekinesis? Your arguments aren't tying together at all. In fact, you're literally tripping over yourself by arguing that the Phoenixforce didn't amp Emma's strength but admitting that it amped her strength in diamond form. Besides, non-diamond form P5 Emma got hammered by a Mjolnir swing when stunned by Thor's mind. If her normal body weren't amped, she wouldn't have survived that.

I don't even get what you're arguing about anymore. [/B]

No there's a difference, just because they share a bond with each other does not mean they could say mind link with a non-Phoenix person.

Not in the conventional sense. I'm arguing that taking down Namor telepathically doesn't mean much because he had no defense against such an attack.

Not at all it amped their pre-existing mutations. Cyclops was the only one shown to get other things amped.

BTW Emma switched to Diamond when Thor knocked her. And the Phoenix Force didn't amp her durability it healed her after the damage was done as shown when Warbird blew her up. It's the same when Phoebe Cuckoo got her head slit open by Wolverine. Or Jean got stabbed many times. Her durability didn't increase but the PF healed them in all those instances.

It wasn't just mentioned once it was mentioned twice. And the second scan is from the story where Xavier puts Phoenix 5 Namor to sleep. Namor had no defense against such an attack.

Uncanny X-Men 15 is where they ignore Danger, Magneto and Storm even though they're sitting in the room with them.

Rachel Grey was present

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It wasn't just mentioned once it was mentioned twice. And the second scan is from the story where Xavier puts Phoenix 5 Namor to sleep. Namor had no defense against such an attack.

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Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Uncanny X-Men 15 is where they ignore Danger, Magneto and Storm even though they're sitting in the room with them.

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Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Rachel Grey was present

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Posting obnoxiously oversized scans doesn't prove anything.

ODG, cut the hostility.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm not scanning everything let me know what exactly you'd like to see scans of. The Utopia crossover? They have a two page spread showing Daken going Clubbing while acting as a Dark Avenger. And they show what he did from Monday to Sunday.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
No there's a difference, just because they share a bond with each other does not mean they could say mind link with a non-Phoenix person.

Not in the conventional sense. I'm arguing that taking down Namor telepathically doesn't mean much because he had no defense against such an attack.

Completely unproven. Assuming your conclusion. You say P5 Namor had no telepathy. Your proof is because Xavier beat P5 Namor in telepathy when P5 Namor had no telepathy. I've already proven he had telepathy.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not at all it amped their pre-existing mutations. Cyclops was the only one shown to get other things amped.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
BTW Emma switched to Diamond when Thor knocked her. And the Phoenix Force didn't amp her durability it healed her after the damage was done as shown when Warbird blew her up. It's the same when Phoebe Cuckoo got her head slit open by Wolverine. Or Jean got stabbed many times. Her durability didn't increase but the PF healed them in all those instances.

Arguing that the P5 didn't get durability upgrades is retarded. P5 Namor no-sold a Mjolnir strike to the back of his head. His head wasn't caved in, then reformed from the bloody mess.

You have no idea what you're even arguing about anymore.

Originally posted by ODG
[B]An ignorant character statement made by Spider-Woman doesn't override the telepathy displayed by the P5 and their own (more well-informed) character statements that they have telepathy.

You mean an "ignorant character statement" by Wolverine right? Since he's the one who lists out the major telepaths there. BTW In that very issue they used the Avengers database. And in the issue with the Red Hulk he's using the Avengers database to study up on the Phoenix 5 and he came to the conclusion that Emma was the only P5 threat to his assassination plan because of her telepathy.

P5 Namor was telepathic. Them holding a telepathic conference proves they're not telepathic? You're not thinking clearly, and even if you were, you surely aren't speaking clearly. So what? P2 Emma was present also.

Posting obnoxiously oversized scans doesn't prove anything.

That scan of Rachel Grey and Psylocke was in response to your claim that "Xavier went toe to toe with Cyclops."

Were you not the one who asked for scans? I can resize them if you wanted all you had to do was ask. I also had more scans to post but didn't cause I didn't want to come across as obnoxious 😛. I'll tell you the numbers so you can have a look at them though. In Uncanny X-Men 15, Emma finds Sinister. They end up in Canada Namor still doesn't know where Sinister is located. Emma has to tell him his underground. In Wolverine and the X-Men 16 Cyclops doesn't know who the Hellfire Kids are because he can't read their minds. Emma does cause she's able to.

Anyway to cut it short. Phoenix Namor didn't display any ability to make him anymore resistant to a telepathic attack then Normal Namor. That is assumption you are making based on the P5 mind-link.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You mean an "ignorant character statement" by Wolverine right? Since he's the one who lists out the major telepaths there. BTW In that very issue they used the Avengers database. And in the issue with the Red Hulk he's using the Avengers database to study up on the Phoenix 5 and he came to the conclusion that Emma was the only

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
That scan of Rachel Grey and Psylocke was in response to your claim that "Xavier went toe to toe with Cyclops."

Were you not the one who asked for scans? I can resize them if you wanted all you had to do was ask. I also had more scans to post but didn't cause I didn't want to come across as obnoxious 😛. I'll tell you the numbers so you can have a look at them though. In Uncanny X-Men 15, Emma finds Sinister. They end up in Canada Namor still doesn't know where Sinister is located. Emma has to tell him his underground. In Wolverine and the X-Men 16 Cyclops doesn't know who the Hellfire Kids are because he can't read their mind. Emma does cause she's able to.

Anyway to cut it short. Phoenix Namor didn't display any ability to make him anymore resistant to a telepathic attackt then Normal Namor.

I asked for scans showing how weak Xavier was since you keep trying to wish his involvement away when Emma breached Sentry's mind. I didn't ask for oversized scans that had nothing to do with that. Was P5 Namor even tasked with looking for Sinister? P5 Scott wasn't directing traffic then either. But you obviously have already acknowledged P5 Scott had telepathy. So the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Assuming your conclusion in contravention of the positive proof we do have, e.g., their telepathic conferences, their telepathic conversations when separated across the globe, their telepathic affairs, P2 Emma's plain statement that they were telepathic. At the very least, I'm glad you're not trying to argue that the Phoenixforce didn't give the P5 extra abilities and increased physical stats anymore.

Originally posted by ODG
[B]Scans of just how weakened Xavier is supposed to be that you would so completely and arbitrarily ignore his assistance when Emma accessed the Bob persona. All you're trying to say here is telepathy isn't telepathy. P2 Emma didn't say, "having an innate mind-link in the way we do," she plainly said in no uncertain terms, "being telepathic in the way we are now." Namor obviously wasn't telepathic before he was possessed by the Phoenixforce. Now he was.

There's a scan of Xavier unable to move in prison, will you be happy with that? Not enough to help him escape prison. And then there's a scan of Nate Grey and Beast and Hellion in the same state and unable to use their powers. Would you like them?

Mastermind can't do everything a normal telepath can yet his illusions are a form of telepathy. Namor did not display anything to indicate that it was anything other then a mind-link. In fact the instances where he couldn't locate Sinister while standing right above Sinister London while Emma could would indicate otherwise. Namor didn't display anything to indicate his protection against telepathy increased. And if you want to look at the actual context within the issue it'd agree that he had no protection against it because he wasn't even considered a telepathic threat by the Avengers. Rachel was.

So if you want to say he shared a telepathic link with the P5 then more to power to you. But there's nothing to indicate that his telepathic resistance was increased or that he could perform mind control, thought casting etc.

Completely unproven. Assuming your conclusion. You say P5 Namor had no telepathy. Your proof is because Xavier beat P5 Namor in telepathy when P5 Namor had no telepathy. I've already proven he had telepathy.

My proof is from Uncanny X-Men 15 where he didn't know where Sinister was while standing right above them. Doesn't matter anyway you have not proven in any way that he could perform any normal telepathic feats or that he'd be harder to take down telepathically.

All you're trying to say here is the P5 were amped, but they weren't. Colossus could never grow super-sized before.

Actually, every single time Colossus armoured up he increased in mass and size. So that's an amped.

Emma could never survive having her chest cleaved in two by a Shiar sword.

The Phoenix Force healed her like it did Jean from radiation poisoning. She still got stabbed by the sword.

Magik could never no-sell a Spider-Man jumpkick to the back of the head and never slam Spider-Man like a rag doll.

Goat legs Magik (This Magik) could actually.

Namor could never levitate an entire fleet. So stop trying to act like the Phoenixforce didn't enhance their bodies and minds and give them all pyrokinesis, telekinesis and telepathy.

It's not pyrokinesis, it's telekinesis IRRC. The flame was created from moving molecules so fast. The Phoenix Force grants telekinetic godhood, that's kind of it's thing so that makes sense.

She switched to diamond form when Thor tried to follow it up.
She was stunned by Thor's consciousness in human form. And don't be so obtuse. If her base durability was never amped, she'd be a bloody puddle once struck by a charged Mjolnir strike that crashed her through a helicarrier and buildings. She was intact the whole way down and she was human. The same way she wasn't a bloody smear when Hulk double-fist pounded her through Utopia's bedrock.

She was diamond when Thor hit her. She can switch very quickly. And Kaare Andrews art was very shiny there so it's hard to tell. She most likely was a bloody smear when the Hulk hit her. You can't really tell cause they never showed it.

Arguing that the P5 didn't get durability upgrades is retarded. P5 Namor no-sold a Mjolnir strike to the back of his head. His head wasn't caved in, then reformed from the bloody mess.

Namor also took punches to the face by Voidtry. If they got durability upgrades that sword wouldn't have gone through Emma's human body. Cyclops would have jerked his head when he got in the head by Caps shield.

Originally posted by ODG
[B]Wolverine was talking about the X-Men's "big telepaths." He didn't even mention the Stepford Cuckoos or Psylocke. Setting aside how irresponsibly obtuse it is for you to translate Wolverine's statement as "only telepaths," what expert intel had Wolverine or even all the Avengers even gathered at that point on the enhanced powersets the P5 had? Iron Man thought he had anti-psi armor built that ended up being useless against P5 Scott. So, yes, Wolverine's statement and the Avengers database is still relatively ignorant compared to P2 Emma's statement -- which was based on personal intimate experience with the actual P5 and the Phoenixforce itself. Which he did.

Did you not see all the footage Tony Stark was recording of the Phoenix 5 during their fights? AvX 7 I believe. Also, Psylocke is not a big telepath.

So why couldn't Namor locate Sinister in Uncanny X-Men 15?

I asked for scans showing how weak Xavier was since you keep trying to wish his involvement away when Emma breached Sentry's mind. I didn't ask for oversized scans that had nothing to do with that.

You weren't very clear with what you were asking for I'll get on to it for you.

Was P5 Namor even tasked with looking for Sinister? P5 Scott wasn't directing traffic then either. But you obviously have already acknowledged P5 Scott had telepathy. So the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Can I post the scan of it? This was after the conference when they go to Canada. He asks where is Sinister. And Emma tells him he's below them. If he was telepathic in the way you're suggesting then he wouldn't have needed to ask that.

Assuming your conclusion in contravention of the positive proof we do have, e.g., their telepathic conferences, their telepathic conversations when separated across the globe, their telepathic affairs, P2 Emma's plain statement that they were telepathic. At the very least, I'm glad you're not trying to argue that the Phoenixforce didn't give the P5 extra abilities and increased physical stats anymore.

Actually, since you're getting very particular about things. Tell me how do you know their telepathic conferences wasn't down to Emma setting it up? Also, in Hickmans issue and in Fractions issue AvX 6 and AvX 9 IRRC telepathy is shown via telepathic speech bubbles. So what are these instances of separate long distance telepathic conversations you're referring to?

Here's what you were asking for. An explanation on what the Omega Machine did from both Xavier and Dark Beast. An example of how weak he was given that Beast could barely hear him. Also depicted in the scan is that he could barely stand up which was a side-effect of the procedure "lethargy".

Keep in mind that Xavier was actually there longer then a week. He was kidnapped in X-Men Legacy right after breaking up the Acolytes.

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^ Holy jebus in a basket with the obnoxious oversized scans. Stop pretending you don't know how to post thumbnails or links. You're stretching the page for absolutely no reason. And an imprisoned Xavier =/= rescued Xavier anyway. Xavier wasn't imprisoned when he helped Emma tackle Sentry.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
There's a scan of Xavier unable to move in prison, will you be happy with that? Not enough to help him escape prison. And then there's a scan of Nate Grey and Beast and Hellion in the same state and unable to use their powers. Would you like them?

Mastermind can't do everything a normal telepath can yet his illusions are a form of telepathy. Namor did not display anything to indicate that it was anything other then a mind-link. In fact the instances where he couldn't locate Sinister while standing right above Sinister London while Emma could would indicate otherwise. Namor didn't display anything to indicate his protection against telepathy increased. And if you want to look at the actual context within the issue it'd agree that he had no protection against it because he wasn't even considered a telepathic threat by the Avengers. Rachel was.

So if you want to say he shared a telepathic link with the P5 then more to power to you. But there's nothing to indicate that his telepathic resistance was increased or that he could perform mind control, thought casting etc.

My proof is from Uncanny X-Men 15 where he didn't know where Sinister was while standing right above them. Doesn't matter anyway you have not proven in any way that he could perform any normal telepathic feats or that he'd be harder to take down telepathically.

P5 Scott was there too when P5 Namor asked, who you've already conceded had telepathy. So, meaningless. And just because Wolverine might not know what he's talking about doesn't mean anything either since, by your forced rationale, he didn't even consider Psylocke or the Stepford Cuckoos a telepathic threat.

I've already addressed this entire absence of evidence fallacy you keep relying on multiple times, severely. Repeating it endlessly and helplessly hasn't improved your position.

Repeating it endlessly and helplessly hasn't improved your position.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Actually, every single time Colossus armoured up he increased in mass and size. So that's an amped.

The Phoenix Force healed her like it did Jean from radiation poisoning. She still got stabbed by the sword.

Goat legs Magik (This Magik) could actually.

Statement of unextraordinary fact that proves absolutely nothing. Inever tried to deny that they could molecularly reform themselves.

Good thing we're not dealing with goat-legs Magik but this supposedly non-strength amped P5 Magik who previously got her a$$ kicked to holy hell by Black Widow in H2H but no-sold and rag-dolled Spider-Man.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It's not pyrokinesis, it's telekinesis IRRC. The flame was created from moving molecules so fast. The Phoenix Force grants telekinetic godhood, that's kind of it's thing so that makes sense.

She was diamond when Thor hit her. She can switch very quickly. And Kaare Andrews art was very shiny there so it's hard to tell. She most likely was a bloody smear when the Hulk hit her. You can't really tell cause they never showed it.

She was not diamond form when Thor hit her. She was human form. Proven even moreso by the fact that when she finally landed after being smashed through the helicarrier and buildings, she grunts in audible pain, "NnNpH." Here:

Whereas, as soon as she turns diamond form, what do we know? "In her diamond form.... she is numbed from pain, both physical and emotional." The fact she felt pain beforehand proves she wasn't in diamond form:

So, yea, she was human form when she was struck by a charged Mjolnir strike, same way she was human form when Hulk double-fist pounded her through Utopia's bedrock. Both which would have reduced her to a bloody pile of goo had her physicality not been amped.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Namor also took punches to the face by Voidtry. If they got durability upgrades that sword wouldn't have gone through Emma's human body. Cyclops would have jerked his head when he got in the head by Caps shield.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Did you not see all the footage Tony Stark was recording of the Phoenix 5 during their fights? AvX 7 I believe. Also, Psylocke is not a big telepath.

So why couldn't Namor locate Sinister in Uncanny X-Men 15?

You weren't very clear with what you were asking for I'll get on to it for you.

Can I post the scan of it? This was after the conference when they go to Canada. He asks where is Sinister. And Emma tells him he's below them. If he was telepathic in the way you're suggesting then he wouldn't have needed to ask that.

Why couldn't P5 Scott? Didn't try =/= couldn't attempt. No matter how many times you try to force this absence of evidence, it doesn't work. Even by your own standards, unless you're trying to disprove P5 Scott also had telepathy?????

I want scans of how weakened Xavier was when he helped Emma. Nothing else.

Again, proving nothing. P5 Namor and P5 Scott not asking or knowing =/= not having telepathy. Stop pretending to be so obtuse that you cannot understand this simple fact. P5 Scott asked wtf P5 Namor was doing in Wakanda too. That doesn't disprove him having telepathy, which even you have already conceded he did.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Actually, since you're getting very particular about things. Tell me how do you know their telepathic conferences wasn't down to Emma setting it up? Also, in Hickmans issue and in Fractions issue AvX 6 and AvX 9 IRRC telepathy is shown via telepathic speech bubbles. So what are these instances of separate long distance telepathic conversations you're referring to?

The only one trying to mince words and parse scenes is you. Your entire stance on Wolverine's character statement is patently ridiculous. As is your whole attempt to argue away the various physical amps and extra abilities the P5 manifested as plain as day. You've lost perspective and complete sight of your argument.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Holy jebus in a basket with the obnoxious oversized scans. Stop pretending you don't know how to post thumbnails or links. You're stretching the page for absolutely no reason. And an imprisoned Xavier =/= rescued Xavier anyway. Xavier wasn't imprisoned when he helped Emma tackle Sentry. Why don't you show it. Beast was a completely different case as he was literally being killed by the process. I don't care about anyone else, just Xavier.

They're resized.

The moment the prisoners were set free and Namor and Emma double crossed Norman is the moment Utopia was attacked that happened within hours at the very most. So how is your point relevant at all? It was the machine that limited his powers. BTW Xavier was hooked up to large ass machines in the med lab when he was rescued.

P5 Scott was there too when P5 Namor asked. Meaningless. Just because Wolverine might not know what he's talking about doesn't mean anything either since, by your forced rationale, he didn't even consider Psylocke or the Stepford Cuckoos a telepathic threat.

They mentioned major telepaths. Psylocke isn't on the same level as the other two. And the Stepford Cuckoos according to Bendis isn't either. From the issue it would indicate Scott isn't either.

In any case, the that is the context of the story Bendis wanted to tell. It's pretty clear in both the issues too.

I've already addressed this entire absence of evidence fallacy you keep relying on multiple times, severely. Repeating it endlessly and helplessly hasn't improved your position. You're not making any sense. "Colossus wasn't amped, yes he kinda was, but he wasn't." Colossus never grew to the size of a mountain or telekinetically parted an entire sea.

I already said the P5 mutations were amped so not sure what problem you're having here. Colossus grew though. So growing bigger is plausable. And the Phoenix in Morrisons X-Men was stated to grant telekinetic godhood. So the telekinesis is understandable.

Statement of unextraordinary fact that proves absolutely nothing.

You stated her durability increased. If that's the case how did a sword go through her but Mljonir not go through her skull? (Going by your logic that she was human form)

Good thing we're not dealing with goat-legs Magik but this supposedly non-strength amped Magik who previously got her a$$ kicked to holy hell by Black Widow in H2H.

Low end feat. This is the same Magik who in non-goat legs form went toe to toe with Sym and Nasarith. And Sym is very strong.

... P5 Colossus literally burned Kitty Pryde when she was intangible. P5 Emma charbroiled Hawkeye. I don't even get the point of you trying to pretend it's not pyrokinesis.

It's actually not pyrokinesis. It'd be the same as me lighting a candle and saying it's pyrokinesis. It's telekinesis on a godlike level. The Phoenix Flame was explained and Jean using her telekinesis on a sub-atomic level. Or for example if I could slow down all the molecules in this room with telekinesis, would you call that chronokinesis?

She was not diamond form when Thor hit her. She was human form. Proven even moreso by the fact that when she finally landed after being smashed through the helicarrier and buildings, she grunts in audible pain, "NnNpH." Here:

Whereas, as soon as she turns diamond form, what do we know? "In her diamond form.... she is numbed from pain, both physical and emotional." The fact she felt pain beforehand proves she wasn't in diamond form:

So, yea, she was human form when she was struck by a charged Mjolnir strike, same way she was human form when Hulk double-fist pounded her through Utopia's bedrock. Both which would have reduced her to a bloody pile of goo had her physicality not been amped. Super durability =/= invincibility.

And I didn't try to prove P5 Emma was invincible. Just that her durability was clearly amped even in human form.

NnNph is not the sound someone makes when they're in pain. Sounds dazed more then anything. So how do you account for Warbirds sword going right through her and Mljonir not going through her skull?

Your Cyclops/Cap comment makes no sense. I don't even know what you're trying to argue about anymore. At this point, the only thing I can do is correct your misstatements of plain fact. [/B]

Of course it does. You're saying their durability was enhanced. You're saying enhanced to the point where Emma's skull isn't caved in by Mljonir. So how if that's the case how can Captain Amerca's shield hurt Phoenix 2 Cyclops so?

Originally posted by ODG
[B]Footage that helped him in absolutely no way whatsoever? Yea, I saw it. That footage also chronologically took place after that Wolverine talking heads scene since Hawkeye was still around but had been charbroiled at the beginning of AvX #7. So... irrelevant.

Still footage of what powers the Phoenix 5 exhibited. Ross used that same footage to hatch his plan. Seeing that telepathy was an issue, why was Emma the only person listed as a potential problem?

Why couldn't P5 Scott? Didn't try =/= couldn't attempt. No matter how many times you try to force this absence of evidence, it doesn't work. Even by your own standards, unless you're trying to disprove P5 Scott also had telepathy?????

Again, proving nothing. P5 Namor and P5 Scott not asking or knowing =/= not having telepathy. Stop pretending to be so obtuse that you cannot understand this simple fact. P5 Scott asked wtf P5 Namor was doing in Wakanda too. That doesn't disprove him having telepathy, which even you have already conceded he did. How do you know that she did? Do you have any proof that P5 Emma was setting them up and that without her their ability to speak to each other would be completely shut down or are you just speculating based on nothing? When the P5 are dealing with multiple Avenger teams around the world and talking to each other and relating what they're seeing in realtime.

I'm being obtuse. Lol, you're deliberately ingnoring the inconsistencies in the crossover due to poor communication between writers.

Do you have proof that she didn't? Is it any different to you saying the Phoenix should make Namor harder to take down telepathically?

Actually we see what telepathic speech bubbles look like in AvX 6. Those red and yellow Phoenix bubbles aren't telepathic speech bubbles. So nope.

The only one trying to mince words and parse scenes is you. Your entire stance on Wolverine's character statement is patently ridiculous. As is your whole attempt to argue away the various physical amps and extra abilities the P5 manifested as plain as day. You've lost perspective and complete sight of your argument.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing here. And the crossover was poorly edited. It is blantaly clear that Bendis take on the Phoenix 5 is that they weren't telepaths. That was Aarons take.

Hickman and Hopeless were inconsistent with the others.

Anyway, the rest of the stuff is fluff. It comes down to this. Your take on Namor and Phoenix Namor. Should he be harder to take down telepathically now that he is a Phoenix and if that is the case what proof are using for this?

BTW These are telepathic speech bubbles.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2uhv5nt.jpg

These aren't

http://i46.tinypic.com/28l6us4.jpg

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
They're resized.

The moment the prisoners were set free and Namor and Emma double crossed Norman is the moment Utopia was attacked that happened within hours at the very most. So how is your point relevant at all? It was the machine that limited his powers. BTW Xavier was hooked up to large ass machines in the med lab when he was rescued.

And he wasn't hooked up to this large a$$ machine that affected certain people worse than others when he helped Emma deal with Sentry.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
They mentioned major telepaths. Psylocke isn't on the same level as the other two. And the Stepford Cuckoos according to Bendis isn't either. From the issue it would indicate Scott isn't either.

In any case, the that is the context of the story Bendis wanted to tell. It's pretty clear in both the issues too.

It's pretty clear you're trying to use completely circumstantial statements made by Wolverine and Spider-Woman to override P5 Emma's plain-as-day statements and the P5's on-panel displays of telepathy. In which case, the question of relative strengths of our positions are rather academic at this point.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I already said the P5 mutations were amped so not sure what problem you're having here. Colossus grew though. So growing bigger is plausable. And the Phoenix in Morrisons X-Men was stated to grant telekinetic godhood. So the telekinesis is understandable.

You stated her durability increased. If that's the case how did a sword go through her but Mljonir not go through her skull? (Going by your logic that she was human form)

Warbird's sword must be pretty awesome then. Granted, when it comes to piercing in comics I too am flabbergasted that Wolverine could easily stab through Gladiator's shoulder while Thor doesn't come close to caving in Gladiator's skull. Which again, is still meaningless as to your attempts to disprove P5 Emma's amps to her body.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Low end feat. This is the same Magik who in non-goat legs form went toe to toe with Sym and Nasarith. And Sym is very strong.

It's actually not pyrokinesis. It'd be the same as me lighting a candle and saying it's pyrokinesis. It's telekinesis on a godlike level. The Phoenix Flame was explained and Jean using her telekinesis on a sub-atomic level. Or for example if I could slow down all the molecules in this room with telekinesis, would you call that chronokinesis?

I don't even care how you're arbitrarily parsing telekinesis and pyrokinesis. If controlling fire and lighting stuff on fire isn't pyrokinesis, that's your cup of tea. It's completely senseless semantics and isn't improving either of our positions.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
NnNph is not the sound someone makes when they're in pain. Sounds dazed more then anything. So how do you account for Warbirds sword going right through her and Mljonir not going through her skull?

Of course it does. You're saying their durability was enhanced. You're saying enhanced to the point where Emma's skull isn't caved in by Mljonir. So how if that's the case how can Captain Amerca's shield hurt Phoenix 2 Cyclops so?

Yes, which explains why Emma wasn't splattered by a charged Mjolnir strike or a double-fist Hulk pound. Which explains why Magik can no-sell Spider-Man and ragdoll him. Cap staggers everybody with his shield, including P5 Namor who you concede had his durability and strength (his main mutations) amped. Do you even read comics?

Originally posted by ODG
[B]Thank god for small mercies.

And he wasn't hooked up to this large a$$ machine that affected certain people worse than others when he helped Emma deal with Sentry. I don't care about Wolverine and Spider-Woman being idiots in their character statements based on the paucity of their actual verifiable intel on the P5. That does not, in any way, banish the telepathy the P5 had, displayed, and themselves talked about.

I'm not following you here. He wasn't constantly hooked up to the Omega Machine when he was in prison either. The machine was in a different room. Prisoners would be taken to the Omega Machine and drained.

What's clear is that the writers had conflicting takes ont eh P5 Bendis, Aaron and even Gillen had different takes to Hickman and Hopeless.

It's pretty clear you're trying to use completely circumstantial statements made by Wolverine and Spider-Woman to override P5 Emma's plain-as-day statements and the P5's on-panel displays of telepathy. In which case, the question of relative strengths of our positions are rather academic at this point. It wasn't just their mutations. Stop obfuscating your repeated mistakes. Colossus never displayed pyrokinesis capable of burning intangible Kitty Pryde or telekinesis capable of parting seas or telepathy capable of communicating with Zzzax's electric legion.

He didn't communicate with Zzzax telepathically. He learnt the language because the Phoenix Force granted them knowledge.

Warbird's sword must be pretty awesome then. Granted, when it comes to piercing in comics I too am flabbergasted that Wolverine could easily stab through Gladiator's shoulder while Thor doesn't come close to caving in Gladiator's skull. Which again, is still meaningless as to your attempts to disprove P5 Emma's amps to her body. You're just ignoring clear evidence at this point. Normal Magik in non-demonic form has no super-strength and gets her butt royally kicked in H2H against Black Widow in AvX Vs. #3, but in P5 form, she no-sells Spider-Man's kicks and ragdolls him. You don't like that the evidence is clear and damning, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't disprove your position.

And Mljonir is not so awesome?

Magik wasn't in demon form when she went toe to toe with Sym though. You're using one feat. Feats are taken on an average on these boards.

I don't even care how you're arbitrarily parsing telekinesis and pyrokinesis. If controlling fire and lighting stuff on fire isn't pyrokinesis, that's your cup of tea. It's completely senseless semantics and isn't improving either of our positions. Jebus H. Christ. At this point, your arbitrary disbelief is about as close to trolling as I'm willing to stomach. Why would she even be dazed if she is tireless and can feel no physical or emotional pain? Your piercing durability schtick has already been dealt with above. You don't need to repeat your arguments over and over again.

She's dazed since she went spinning?? I see your POV and I can understand why you would say that. I could even accept it but the inconsistencies within the crossover are jarring. Okay lets say that the Phoenix Force did grant them extra abilitys durability etc...how do you go about quantifiying what it granted each and every one because it wasn't shown within the crossover. E.g. Namor had telepathy lets say he does. How do you quanitfy the level of it? Karma level? Blindfold level?

Yes, which explains why Emma wasn't splattered by a charged Mjolnir strike or a double-fist Hulk pound. Which explains why Magik can no-sell Spider-Man and ragdoll him. Cap staggers everybody with his shield, including P5 Namor who you concede had his durability and strength (his main mutations) amped. Do you even read comics?

So now we're not even talking comics we're talking writing inconsistencies yes?