P5 Scott & Emma vs. Voidtry & FP Kuurth

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Still footage of what powers the Phoenix 5 exhibited. Ross used that same footage to hatch his plan. Seeing that telepathy was an issue, why was Emma the only person listed as a potential problem?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm being obtuse. Lol, you're deliberately ingnoring the inconsistencies in the crossover due to poor communication between writers.

Do you have proof that she didn't? Is it any different to you saying the Phoenix should make Namor harder to take down telepathically?

Actually we see what telepathic speech bubbles look like in AvX 6. Those red and yellow Phoenix bubbles aren't telepathic speech bubbles. So nope.

Why do I have to prove a negative? Why do I have to prove that even without P5 Emma, they could set up telepathic conferences? You don't even have any evidence that she was solely responsible for them in the first place. In any event, I can prove the negative. Because P5 Cyclops, Magik and Colossus were still talking to each other even after P5 Emma got taken out by Sinister's Madelyne clones.

So they're just talking really loudly across the Earth? I'd rather you not beg meaningless questions and I'm not going to further derail this conversation with absurdities. You yourself pointed out their telepathic conferences with each other while ignoring everybody else and no strictly telepathic speech bubbles are used. So don't bother bringing it up again.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You're arguing for the sake of arguing here. And the crossover was poorly edited. It is blantaly clear that Bendis take on the Phoenix 5 is that they weren't telepaths. That was Aarons take.

Hickman and Hopeless were inconsistent with the others.

Anyway, the rest of the stuff is fluff. It comes down to this. Your take on Namor and Phoenix Namor. Should he be harder to take down telepathically now that he is a Phoenix and if that is the case what proof are using for this?

I don't care what you think Bendis did based on an ignorant and uninformed character statement by Wolverine.

Because P5 Namor is amped by the phucking Phoenixforce. If that never entered your mind, think on it first before repeating yourself.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm not following you here. He wasn't constantly hooked up to the Omega Machine when he was in prison either. The machine was in a different room. Prisoners would be taken to the Omega Machine and drained.

What's clear is that the writers had conflicting takes ont eh P5 Bendis, Aaron and even Gillen had different takes to Hickman and Hopeless.

What's clear is circumstantial non-character statements (Wolverine not bothering to mention other telepaths like P5 Scott, Namor, Magik, Colossus and Psylocke and Stepford Cuckoos) has absolutely no bearing on clear, unequivocal character statements (P2 Emma saying they were all telepathic) and clear, on-panel displays of telepathy.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
He didn't communicate with Zzzax telepathically. He learnt the language because the Phoenix Force granted them knowledge.

And Mljonir is not so awesome?

Compete non-sequitur. If you have nothing to say further, say nothing at all. I don't need your complete concession that Emma's durability was amped when she wasn't splattered by Mjolnir or Hulk in human form. It's just that phucking obvious.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Magik wasn't in demon form when she went toe to toe with Sym though. You're using one feat. Feats are taken on an average on these boards.

She's dazed sinze she went spinning??

So now we're not even talking comics we're talking writing inconsistencies yes?

I'm not even dignifying this with a response.

No, you're trying to project your views on completely circumstantial character statements made by characters who were uninformed at the time, trying to argue that up the ladder to the writers. But whining about writer inconsistency doesn't excuse away all the displays of telepathy and this clear, informed character statement of P2 Emma concerning whether P5 Namor had telepathy:

Originally posted by ODG
I just told you that footage was chronologically recorded before Wolverine discusses their telepaths. You can tell because Hawkeye is present when Wolverine is speaking but had been charbroiled by the time Tony started gathering data. Reread the comics. Stop repeating yourself needlessly and stop making me repeat myself. You can blame the writers all you want. Your arguments are left wanting.

I was referring to the Red Hulk issue. He's looking at the footage. It's on one of the scans in the previous page. That happens after because the Avengers are based in Wakanda (Avengers 28).

Why do I have to prove a negative? Why do I have to prove that even without P5 Emma, they could set up telepathic conferences? You don't even have any evidence that she was solely responsible for them in the first place. In any event, I can prove the negative. Because P5 Cyclops, Magik and Colossus were still talking to each other even after P5 Emma got taken out by Sinister's Madelyne clones.

That is a fair point.

So they're just talking really loudly across the Earth?

They intimately linked through the Phoenix. It's how they finish each others sentences.

I'd rather you not beg meaningless questions and I'm not going to further derail this conversation with absurdities. You yourself pointed out their telepathic conferences with each other while ignoring everybody else and no strictly telepathic speech bubbles are used. So don't bother bringing it up again. No, I'm not.

It's pretty clear that, that is how they're intimately linked to each other. No telepathic speech need to be used.

You're the one that is trying to argue Xavier didn't really help Emma (he did). You're the one who is trying to argue that none of the P5 save Emma and Scott had telepathy (they did). You're the one trying to ague that none of the P5 received any other physical amps or extra powers save to their original mutations (they did). This is all plain fact and you're just trying to take circumstantial character statements and pieces of non-evidence to cobble up a weak rebuttal.

I'm trying to show you that the there are glaring inconsistencies within the crossover. I never said Xavier didn't help Emma get into the White Room. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm trying to provide context. He wasn't at full strength that is a fact. Given the inconsistencies in writing it's reasonable to argue that. In fact it was the Emma vs. Thor fight and the Warbird vs. Emma fight which led me to come to the conclusion that they didn't receive Amps. Also the Magik vs. Thing fight where she went flying. But I can say you've convinced me here in regards to durability. I'm unsure about strength.

I don't care what you think Bendis did based on an ignorant and uninformed character statement by Wolverine.

Because P5 Namor is amped by the phucking Phoenixforce. If that never entered your mind, think on it first before repeating yourself. [/B]

That is an assumption. He had a degree of telepathy in the form of a mind link. I have no problem with that since it's semantics. Sentry had mental powers but he didn't train how to use them according to Emma Frost and that's how he got mind raped by Mastermind.

So to what degree does Namor have telepathy? And would taking Phoenix Namor down anymore impressive then taking him down without it?

voidtry solos without question 10/10

Originally posted by ODG
[B]And Xavier wasn't hooked up to this machine when he helped Emma. You're confusing yourself.

He was still weakened from being put in it. It only hours since he was rescued.

What's clear is circumstantial non-character statements (Wolverine not bothering to mention other telepaths like P5 Scott, Namor, Magik, Colossus and Psylocke and Stepford Cuckoos) has absolutely no bearing on clear, unequivocal character statements (P2 Emma saying they were all telepathic) and clear, on-panel displays of telepathy. Yes, the Phoenixforce granted him the ability to speak electric via telepathy.

The Phoenix Force granted him the ability to speak electric. It wasn't via telepathy that's an assumption.

Compete non-sequitur. If you have nothing to say further, say nothing at all. I don't need your complete concession that Emma's durability was amped when she wasn't splattered by Mjolnir or Hulk in human form. It's just that phucking obvious. Neither was she in demon form when she got wrecked by Black Widow. Show me proof Magik can no-sell Spider-Man's kick and ragdoll him. I just gave you proof she couldn't.

Magik fought Sym in New Mutants and Inferno physically. And Sym is very very strong.

No, you're trying to project your views on completely circumstantial character statements made by characters who were uninformed at the time, trying to argue that up the ladder to the writers. But whining about writer inconsistency doesn't excuse away all the displays of telepathy and this clear, informed character statement of P2 Emma concerning whether P5 Namor had telepathy:

If someone hasn't displayed a power you cannot use it on these boards as proof. It's that simple. Namor did not display mind control. You couldn't argue that Namor can use it. These boards work with feats. Again, you were arguing about semantics. Namor is granted these extra powers. It does not mean he's an Xavier level telepath. It doesn't even mean he's in the same league as Blindfold. Heck it doesn't even mean he can carry out feats that he did not display on panel. So no taking out Phoenix telepathically is not impressive.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I was referring to the Red Hulk issue. He's looking at the footage. It's on one of the scans in the previous page. That happens after because the Avengers are based in Wakanda (Avengers 28).

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
They intimately linked through the Phoenix. It's how they finish each others sentences.

It's pretty clear that, that is how they're intimately linked to each other. No telepathic speech need to be used.

It's pretty clear that, no telepathic speech bubbles need be used when they're plainly speaking in telepathy. Mindlinking is telepathy. Xavier was speaking to P2 Scott trying to calm him with a scene on the beach in AvX #11 and no telepathic speech bubbles were used. And he wasn't one of the P5 so you can't obfuscate this mindlink notion. So, yea, the absence of telepathic speech bubbles isn't evidence of absence of telepathy:

You need to learn that as virtually all your arguments are based on this singular fallacy. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm trying to show you that the there are glaring inconsistencies within the crossover. I never said Xavier didn't help Emma get into the White Room. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm trying to provide context. He wasn't at full strength that is a fact. Given the inconsistencies in writing it's reasonable to argue that. In fact it was the Emma vs. Thor fight and the Warbird vs. Emma fight which led me to come to the conclusion that they didn't receive Amps. Also the Magik vs. Thing fight where she went flying. But I can say you've convinced me here in regards to durability. I'm unsure about strength.

That is an assumption. He had a degree of telepathy in the form of a mind link. I have no problem with that since it's semantics. Sentry had mental powers but he didn't train how to use them according to Emma Frost and that's how he got mind raped by Mastermind.

So to what degree does Namor have telepathy? And would taking Phoenix Namor down anymore impressive then taking him down without it?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
He was still weakened from being put in it. It only hours since he was rescued.

The Phoenix Force granted him the ability to speak electric. It wasn't via telepathy that's an assumption.

Magik fought Sym in New Mutants and Inferno physically. And Sym is very very strong.

The assumption is squarely on you.

Feel free to post a scan or give an issue # that proves Magik can no-sell Spider-Man's jumpkicks to the head and can ragdoll Spider-Man. For whatever reason, you're just ignoring Magik being taken to school by Black Widow within the storyline itself, but let's see what special evidence you're relying on that leads you to this intransigience.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
If someone hasn't displayed a power you cannot use it on these boards as proof. It's that simple. Namor did not display mind control. You couldn't argue that Namor can use it. These boards work with feats. Again, you were arguing about semantics. Namor is granted these extra powers. It does not mean he's an Xavier level telepath. It doesn't even mean he's in the same league as Blindfold. Heck it doesn't even mean he can carry out feats that he did not display on panel. So no taking out Phoenix telepathically is not impressive.

But P5 Namor had telepathy befitting a recipient of 1/5th of the raw Phoenixforce, like P5 Scott and the rest. So taking any of them down is impressive (Emma moreso since she already has a considerable telepathic base). And Xavier clearly outshines any individual P5. It's not like he hasn't operated on that level before or doesn't have intimate experience with the Phoenixforce.

He was possessed by the PF...of course he has telepathic power.

Originally posted by ODG
[B]Which proves they hadn't gathered nearly as much intel as they could have and did have by AvX #7. So how does incomplete footage improve Rulk's or Wolverine's knowledge such that it overrides P2 Emma's plain intimate and first-hand knowledge? Answer: it doesn't. Because they're all telepathic, yes.

It's pretty clear that, no telepathic speech bubbles need be used when they're plainly speaking in telepathy. Mindlinking is telepathy. Xavier was speaking to P2 Scott trying to calm him with a scene on the beach in AvX #11 and no telepathic speech bubbles were used. And he wasn't one of the P5 so you can't obfuscate this mindlink notion. So, yea, the absence of telepathic speech bubbles isn't evidence of absence of telepathy:

How is this point relevant though. They weren't on the astral plane when they were communicating long distances in AvX 7.

So you can't quantify how weakened at all?

I can quantify that the after effects of the machine left him in such a weakened state that his thoughts were faint to Beast.

You need to learn that as virtually all your arguments are based on this singular fallacy. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I don't care what Wolverine believes. Him not mentioning P5 Scott along with Emma and Rachel was also clearly a blunder on him with regards to assessing big telepathic threats. It's plainly evident that within the four corners of the story, he was being an idiot or was simply uninformed. That makes sense based on the timing of the scene and the context of the story. Nothing further should be drawn from it and nothing worthwhile can be drawn from it that would override P2 Emma's clear, unequivocal statement: they were all telepathic.

And P5 Namor had telepathy befitting a recipient of 1/5th of the raw Phoenixforce, like P5 Scott and the rest. So taking any of them down is impressive (Emma moreso since she already has a considerable telepathic base). And Xavier clearly outshines any individual P5. It's not like he hasn't operated on that level before or doesn't have intimate experience with the Phoenixforce.

Xavier hasn't. He required Jean Greys help to take down Dark Phoenix in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

It would only be impressive if Namor actually shown the ability to utilize whatever semblance of telepathy he had in a defensive capacity.

It's whatever 1/5 the Phoenix Force grants him. Which is not quantifable because he didn't display anything past being able to talk to his co-hosts.

What about super strength. Did the Phoenix Force amp each host to whatever 1/5 the PF grants them. Yes? Is that impressive? Well it's relative it's a cosmic entities power...Magik could punch out Thing.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
How is this point relevant though. They weren't on the astral plane when they were communicating long distances in AvX 7.

I can quantify that the after effects of the machine left him in such a weakened state that his thoughts were faint to Beast.

After he was freed? No, I don't think so. You never showed that. You only showed him when he was in prison.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Xavier hasn't. He required Jean Greys help to take down Dark Phoenix in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

It would only be impressive if Namor actually shown the ability to utilize whatever semblance of telepathy in a defensive capacity that the Phoenix granted him.

It's whatever 1/5 the Phoenix Force grants him. Which is not quantifable because he didn't display anything past being able to talk to his co-hosts.

What about super strength. Did the Phoenix Force amp each host to whatever 1/5 the PF grants them. Yes? Is that impressive? Well...Magik could punch out Thing.

Taking down an entity possessing 1/5th of the Phoenixforce is not unimpressive.

It's also not questionable based on you having no evidence. What we do know is that they each received an equal 1/5th portion of the Phoenixforce. So common sense dictates they were receiving relatively equal amps (their own natural gifts notwithstanding). We see them all display incredible levels of telekinesis and pyrokinesis. Why would P5 Namor arbitrarily get no telepathy?

This makes no sense. If you have evidence that P5 Namor received no telepathy and P5 Magik received no extra strength, post it. All you're doing is begging meaningless questions in contravention of clear on-panel evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by bbrem123
He was possessed by the PF...of course he has telepathic power.

Originally posted by ODG
[B]It's relevant when you keep trying to argue that "no telepathic speech bubbles =/= telepathy." The absence of telepathic speech bubbles is not evidence of absence of telepathy. That's the end of it.

What it indicates is that on the astral plane there's no need for telepathic speech bubbles.

After he was freed? No, I don't think so. You never showed that. You only showed him when he was in prison. I am not trying to prove Xavier can take on a full Phoenixforce host by himself. He obviously couldn't deal with Dark Phoenix Scott. But there should be no questioning he can deal with 1/5th of that sort of telepathic power (as he did with P5 Namor) when he was doing pretty darn well against 1/2 of that power (as he was against P2 Scott).

He was aided by Rachel, Dr. Strange, Psylocke when he took on Phoenix 2 Cyclops. So that's not a fair assumption to make.

And he took out a character with an unquanitfiable level of telepathy. And one who displayed zero feats in using it offensively or defensively.

It's also not questionable based on you having no evidence. What we do know is that they each received an equal 1/5th portion of the Phoenixforce. So common sense dictates they were receiving relatively equal amps (their own natural gifts notwithstanding). We see them all display incredible levels of telekinesis and pyrokinesis. Why would P5 Namor arbitrarily get no telepathy?

The Phoenix Force grants God-Like telekinesis so it explains why they were granted god-like telekinesis.

Cyclops can block Mljonir with his pinky. Magik can't block a punch from the Thing.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
What it indicates is that on the astral plane there's no need for telepathic speech bubbles.

He was aided by Rachel, Dr. Strange, Psylocke when he took on Phoenix 2 Cyclops. So that's not a fair assumption to make.

And he took out a character with an unquanitfiable level of telepathy. And one who displayed zero feats in using it offensively or defensively.

P2 Scott was also aided by P2 Emma. So, yea.

To you it's unquantifiable. To me, it's patently quantifiable because it was exactly 1/5th of the raw Phoenixforce he received. No more, no less. None of them received a smaller or bigger portion. And you have no evidence that the Phoenixforce specially excluded Namor from a share of increased telepathy like Scott received. Feel free to make that argument with proof. So, yea.

Originally posted by ODG
Admitting that telepathic speech bubbles need not always be present supports my position and weakens your's. The shoe isn't on the other foot here. So, yea.

P2 Scott was also aided by P2 Emma. So, yea.

To you it's unquantifiable. To me, it's patently quantifiable because it was exactly 1/5th of the raw Phoenixforce he received. No more, no less. None of them received a smaller or bigger portion. And you have no evidence that the Phoenixforce specially excluded Namor from a share of increased telepathy like Scott received. Feel free to make that argument with proof. So, yea.

Well that scene took place on the astral plane. So I wouldn't see the need to use speech bubbles there. The other scenes in AvX 7 are not. So no.

I'm not the one who said Professor X did well against Phoenix 2 Cyclops you did. You left out the part where he was aided.

I didn't say it especially excluded Namor. All Cyclops displayed telepathically was communication as well.

Emma couldn't take the Hulk on physically. So one fifth the Phoenix Force strength translates to strength much less then the Hulk. It would be the same with whatever semblance of telepathy he had.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Emma couldn't take the Hulk on physically. So one fifth the Phoenix Force strength translates to strength much less then the Hulk. It would be the same with whatever semblance of telepathy he had.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Emma had half the PF when she faced the Hulk, and the result of their physical tangle was inconclusive as she then blasted him backwards before being betrayed by Scott.

Red Hulk.

And the one she was blasting backwards was Red Hulk. The same scene is shown in Uncanny X-Men 18 IRRC.

And I'm trying to remember the issue where Phoenix Magik got decked by Thing I think it was Legacy.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Red Hulk.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

And the one she was blasting backwards was Red Hulk. The same scene is shown in Uncanny X-Men 18 IRRC.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

And I'm trying to remember the issue where Phoenix Magik got decked by Thing I think it was Legacy.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
She had one-fourth the PF then, and didn't she begin to fight him in her diamond form before Cyclops butted in to make an example of him to the others

Ross mentioned Namor there though. I think it was 5.

It was an uncanny tie in, and I doubt it proves anything as Thing only managed to BFR her, no long term damage done. Iceman proceeded to beat up Ben after that incident with Magik. [/B]

Iceman?? In Uncanny? It must Wolverine and the X-Men. I'll have a look. I need to see the scene again.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Well that scene took place on the astral plane. So I wouldn't see the need to use speech bubbles there. The other scenes in AvX 7 are not. So no.

I'm not the one who said Professor X did well against Phoenix 2 Cyclops you did. You left out the part where he was aided.

Same as you leaving out the part that P2 Emma was fighting alongside P2 Scott. So, yea.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I didn't say it especially excluded Namor. All Cyclops displayed telepathically was communication as well.

Emma couldn't take the Hulk on physically. So one fifth the Phoenix Force strength translates to strength much less then the Hulk. It would be the same with whatever semblance of telepathy he had.

The fact that you ignore her surviving a double-fist pound cheapshot through Utopia without being hurt is one thing. Whatever. But you're using the absence of evidence of Hulk-strength levels for P5 Emma to approximate P5 Namor's telepathy? What stops me from using the presence of evidence of Emma-tp levels for P5 Emma to approximate P5 Namor's telepathy then? Considering we know they each received an equal portion of the raw Phoenixforce.

I mean, you don't even see how absurdly you're pressing your arguments. I'll leave you to figure out just how backwards you are before it smacks you right in the face. If you do, I'll give you more credit than you deserve up til now.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Ross mentioned Namor there though. I think it was 5.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Iceman?? In Uncanny? It must Wolverine and the X-Men. I'll have a look. I need to see the scene again.

Originally posted by ODG
Which means that you don't need telepathic speech bubbles all the time when it's completely obvious they're using tp. Like Colossus, Emma and Scott talking to each other when they're in different areas of the Earth. So, yea.

Same as you leaving out the part that P2 Emma was fighting alongside P2 Scott. So, yea. Good gravy, are you serious? Cyclops cannot fight off Xavier and give him nosebleeds without an amp to his telepathy.

You left out Emma who was there too. And we're talking about Phoenix 5 Cyclops not Phoenix 2 because that's how you're gauging Namors "telepathy".

The fact that you ignore her surviving a double-fist pound cheapshot through Utopia without being hurt is one thing. Whatever. But you're using the absence of evidence of Hulk-strength levels for P5 Emma to approximate P5 Namor's telepathy? What stops me from using the presence of evidence of Emma-tp levels for P5 Emma to approximate P5 Namor's telepathy then? Considering we know they each received an equal portion of the raw Phoenixforce.

I mean, you don't even see how absurdly you're pressing your arguments. I'll leave you to figure out just how backwards you are before it smacks you right in the face. If you do, I'll give you more credit than you deserve up til now.

Emma was already a telepath. Like Namor already had super strength. So they'd be stronger in those bases. Emma also has the knowledge and experience of being a telepath.

And most of what you're suggesting is speculation. Even if he did have the power there's no indication that he knew how to use it to defend himself. Or how competent he was with the power. And on top of that Xavier ambush them all and it took time.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I don't recall the exact issue that story took place in, but I am fairly confident that it was after Namor's siege of Wakanda.

Maybe it wasn't Uncanny then. Yes Iceman, and I clearly remember it because zopzop made a big fuss of that scene on the Ownage thread.

Just looked at it. It was before. Cyclops blasts a X in Rulks chest and they send him to Wakanda as a message.

Thanks It was Wolverine and the X-Men 14.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You left out Emma who was there too.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Emma was already a telepath. Like Namor already had super strength. So they'd be stronger in those bases. Emma also has the knowledge and experience of being a telepath.

#1 You already refuse and deny that receiving 1/5th of the Phoenixforce means you get telepathic amps. Which, in itself, is an insult to common sense. I mean... it's a psionic entity and quite possibly the most powerful psionic entity in Marvel, but whatever. #2 You also refuse to take the clear amps and extra abilities they received as any sort of correlative measure by which telepathy should be amped since it tends to prove P5 Namor's telepathy was on their level. After all, P5 Namor possessed considerable telekinesis/pyrokinesis, but that is supposedly meaningless in proving considerable telepathy because dammit... no actual tp feats that you like.

So based on all that... what evidence do you have that P5 Emma actually received a substantial telepathic amp herself? #1 Phoenixforce doesn't automatically imbue a host with telepathic abilities beyond mere communication. #2 And she didn't do anything in AvX she couldn't already do. So dammit, no actual tp+ feats beyond her original levels.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
And most of what you're suggesting is speculation. Even if he did have the power there's no indication that he knew how to use it to defend himself. Or how competent he was with the power.

Let me ask you this, how does your own arbitrary logic taste? I'd say it was sh1tty, since you just argued yourself into such a corner that you gutted your own original premise. But it's not like I didn't see this coming.