P5 Scott & Emma vs. Voidtry & FP Kuurth

Originally posted by ODG
Because the main telepathic fight was between Scott and Xavier. Both sides had allies, and P2 Scott's ally was far more formidable, but that's irrelevant. Ha, you started to see it. So, let's nail down your hypocritical attitude right now.

#1 You already refuse and deny that receiving 1/5th of the Phoenixforce means you get telepathic amps. Which, in itself, is an insult to common sense. I mean... it's a psionic entity and quite possibly the most powerful psionic entity in Marvel, but whatever. #2 You also refuse to take the clear amps and extra abilities they received as any sort of correlative measure by which telepathy should be amped since it tends to prove P5 Namor's telepathy was on their level. After all, P5 Namor possessed considerable telekinesis, but that is supposedly meaningless in proving considerable telepathy without actual feats.

So based on all that... what evidence do you have that P5 Emma actually received a substantial telepathic amp herself? #1 Phoenixforce doesn't automatically imbue a host with telepathic abilities beyond mere communication. #2 And she didn't do anything in AvX she couldn't already do. No feats showing super-telepathy beyond her original levels. And, so most of what you're suggesting is speculation. To be clear, you originally speculated (based on no feats) that P5 Emma could achieve on her own what Emma and Xavier achieved together with Sentry. Even if P5 Emma did have the power there's no indication that she could achieve levels approaching, much less surpassing, Xavier's added prowess (as weakened as however you arbitrarily declare him to be). And since P5 Scott is useless to you with only his basic "communication only" telepathy, she's got nobody else to rely on except herself.

Let me ask you this, how does your own arbitrary logic taste? I'd say it was sh1tty, since you just argued yourself into such a corner that you gutted your own original premise.

In Avengers Academy, Phoenix 5 Emma explains to X-23 that she received an amp to her telepathy. And even explains to X-23 that she could heal her trauma within seconds something she admits herself she couldn't previously do.

BTW I think you're the one who argued themselves into a corner here. Since Phoenix 5 Cyclops apparently has 1/5th the telepathic raw power of the Phoenix Force and all. 😛

And the Phoenix Force snikt is telekinetic godhood first and foremost.

P5 Emma failing against Thor while Xaiver succeeded is enough to suggest to me that irrespective of what level of amp she got from the 1/5th the PF , it still didn't put her on Xavier's level in terms of raw telepathic might.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
In Avengers Academy, Phoenix 5 Emma explains to X-23 that she received an amp to her telepathy. And even explains to X-23 that she could heal her trauma within seconds something she admits herself she couldn't previously do.

BTW I think you're the one who argued themselves into a corner here. Since Phoenix 5 Cyclops apparently has 1/5th the telepathic raw power of the Phoenix Force and all. 😛

And the Phoenix Force snikt is telekinetic godhood first and foremost.

One of my first statements was that P5 Scott is nowhere near Xavier in telepathic power anyway, so... that'd be a no. You're the one who argued he only got a "communication only" tp amp. So for you, it's P5 Emma all by her lonesome here in a violent fight trying to replicate a feat that Emma+Xavier with prep and in safety just barely managed.

It really isn't. You can't separate out the cosmic fire from the uber telekinesis from the telepathic godhood just because you don't like how the evidence is starting to stack up.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
P5 Emma failing against Thor while Xaiver succeeded is enough to suggest to me that irrespective of what level of amp she got from the 1/5th the PF , it still didn't put her on Xavier's level in terms of raw telepathic might.

So, yea.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
P5 Emma failing against Thor while Xaiver succeeded is enough to suggest to me that irrespective of what level of amp she got from the 1/5th the PF , it still didn't put her on Xavier's level in terms of raw telepathic might.

Xavier ambushed them all though (Rachel Grey included). Emma abushed Xavier in X-Men Legacy 215 and 216 and rendered him helpless.

Anyway AvX 4 had this line in it so read into it whatever you want. "Emma Frost is one of the most powerful telepaths on the planet. But has she ever looked into the mind of a-- oh god." IMO that doesn't imply anything to do with raw telepathic might. More so experience with gods minds.

And because people actually think I'm taking the piss with the telepathy/phoenix/telekinetic thing here. This is where that's from:
http://i50.tinypic.com/33vcj74.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/1zv92l3.jpg

Originally posted by ODG
[B]But not an amp that proves she could approach, much less surpass Xavier's assistance when tackling Sentry since she has no actual tp+ feats in AvX. As you kept trying to force the issue... speculation, speculation, speculation. Apparently, the absence of evidence doesn't overcome common sense. But... y'know... it's not my argument.

One of my first statements was that P5 Scott is nowhere near Xavier in telepathic power anyway, so... that'd be a no. You're the one who argued he only got a "communication only" tp amp. So for you, it's P5 Emma all by her lonesome here in a violent fight trying to replicate a feat that Emma+Xavier with prep and in safety just barely managed.

You're basing that on him ambushing Phoenix Namor right? Except this is an arbitarily weakened Xavier. So is P5 Scott nowhere near a weakened Xavier in telepathic power?

It really isn't. You can't separate out the cosmic fire from the uber telekinesis from the telepathic godhood just because you don't like how the evidence is starting to stack up.

See the scans above.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Xavier ambushed them all though (Rachel Grey included). Emma abushed Xavier in X-Men Legacy 215 and 216 and rendered him helpless.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Anyway AvX 4 had this line in it so read into it whatever you want. "Emma Frost is one of the most powerful telepaths on the planet. But has she ever looked into the mind of a-- oh god."

And because people actually think I'm taking the piss with the telepathy/phoenix/telekinetic thing here. This is where that's from:
http://i50.tinypic.com/33vcj74.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/1zv92l3.jpg

Irrelevant. I can post scans talking about Phoenixforce being the veritable cosmic fire of creation and being composed of the universe's psionic energy. This is nothing but an irrelevant statement of unextraordinary fact.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You're basing that on him ambushing Phoenix Namor right? Except this is an arbitarily weakened Xavier. So is P5 Scott nowhere near a weakened Xavier in telepathic power?

See the scans above.

Again, irrelevant. You tried so hard to strip the four P5 co-hosts of any meaningful telepathy amps that you ended up self-destructing your own argument that P5 Emma alone could achieve in a violent fight, what Emma+Xavier achieved with prep and safety and distraction. Based on what? Nothing, it seems.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Xavier ambushed them all though (Rachel Grey included). Emma abushed Xavier in X-Men Legacy 215 and 216 and rendered him helpless.

As the Sinister-Tiamut fiasco shows, Emma is intimately familiar with Scott's mind to the point that she could do what Hope failed at. Her being able to do that to Xavier within Scott's mind is like Mephisto being able imprison a portion of Gaea within Hades. Hardly conclusive to prove that Mephisto>Gaea('s portion).

Originally posted by ODG
So what? P2 Scott was still struggling with Xavier even when he knew he was there and that was a Scott with 1/2 the Phoenixforce, not 1/5th. And Xavier may have surprised Rachel Grey, but Xavier stood revealed and asked her not to fight and said, "I don't want to overpower you." Which he did when Rachel assaulted him. In fact, the only one trying peculiarly hard to ignore preemptive strikes here is you, since Emma+Xavier completely ambushed an unsuspecting Sentry who was stomping on Namor. Needless to say, P5 Emma doesn't get to hide here in this thread in safety. Exactly. So much for this unquantifiable amp helping her meaningfully.

Originally posted by ODG
So what? P2 Scott was still struggling with Xavier even when he knew he was there and that was a Scott with half the Phoenixforce, not 1/5th. And Xavier may have surprised Rachel Grey, but Xavier stood revealed and asked her not to fight and said, "I don't want to overpower you." Which he did when Rachel assaulted him. In fact, the only one trying hard to ignore preemptive strikes here is you, since Emma+Xavier completely ambushed an unsuspecting Sentry who was stomping on Namor. Needless to say, P5 Emma doesn't get to hide here in this thread in safety. Exactly. So much for this unquantifiable amp helping her meaningfully.

Except Phoenix 2 Cyclops did not want to kill. Emma and Cyclops discussed this before. And a part of their consciousness was elsewhere having dinner.

That's a fair point about Rachel but he ambushed Phoenix Namor. Just like Emma ambushed him.

And that's another fair point I guess but P5 Emma and Cyclops have added durability. And Emma can become intangible as flame. But it is a fair point it would be difficult to replicate the feat under pressure.

Irrelevant. I can post scans talking about Phoenixforce being the veritable cosmic fire of creation and being composed of the universe's psionic energy. This is nothing but an irrelevant statement of unextraordinary fact. P5 Scott has "communication only" tp according to you. So according to you, obviously he isn't.

Again, irrelevant. You tried so hard to strip the four P5 co-hosts of any meaningful telepathy amps that you ended up self-destructing your own argument that P5 Emma could achieve in a violent fight, what Emma+Xavier achieved with prep and safety and distraction. Based on what? Nothing, it seems.

This thread is meaningless. I'm merely presenting facts and context which is what you're choosing to ignore. I still don't believe that it was Bendis intention to make the Phoenix 5 telepaths. It wasn't Aarons either. And that's what's being lost here. You can be as aggressive as you want doesn't change the context that the story was written in. There was no need to have Spider-Woman or Wolverine make those comments in the story. Niether was there for Ross. If Bendis' intention was to make the all the Phoenix 5 hosts telepaths.

I'm happy to concede in regards to the fight. Replicating the feat under pressure could be difficult.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Xavier ordered a a charging Namor(along with pretty much everyone else) to "Sleep!" and they did. Emma trapped Xavier in the Astral Plane shaped like Scott's mindscape after enough time to bind herself within his subconscious even as he was trying to "help" Scott. Plus not to mention that in the beginning of #216, Xavier openly declared his superiority over her telepathic capabilities.

As the Sinister-Tiamut fiasco shows, Emma is intimately familiar with Scott's mind to the point that she could do what Hope failed at. Her being able to do that to Xavier within Scott's mind is like Mephisto being able imprison a portion of Gaea within Hades. Hardly conclusive to prove that Mephisto>Gaea('s portion).

It's no different to what Xavier did to the Avengers and Namor. He came prepped to take Rachel down and was linked with Wolverine and the Avengers. She also blocked his power in World War Hulk X-Men. Also it was stated that Rachel was blocking Namors presence from Xavier.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It's no different to what Xavier did to the Avengers and Namor. She also blocked his power in World War Hulk X-Men. Also it was stated that Rachel was blocking Namors presence from Xavier.

all I know is nobody here is assaulting Voidtry.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Except Phoenix 2 Cyclops did not want to kill. Emma and Cyclops discussed this before. And a part of their consciousness was elsewhere having dinner.

That's a fair point about Rachel but he ambushed Phoenix Namor. Just like Emma ambushed him.

And that's another fair point I guess but P5 Emma and Cyclops have added durability. And Emma can become intangible as flame. But it is a fair point it would be difficult to replicate the feat under pressure.

No... P5 Namor saw Xavier overpower Rachel and bumrushed him before being put down with the rest.

At this point, stripping them completely of meaningful telepathy amps and strength amps like you tried to originally do, it'd be near impossible for them to replicate.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
This thread is meaningless. I'm merely presenting facts and context which is what you're choosing to ignore. I still don't believe that it was Bendis intention to make the Phoenix 5 telepaths. It wasn't Aarons either. And that's what's being lost here. You can be as aggressive as you want doesn't change the context that the story was written in. There was no need to have Spider-Woman or Wolverine make those comments in the story. Niether was there for Ross. If Bendis' intention was to make the all the Phoenix 5 hosts telepaths.

I'm happy to concede in regards to the fight. Replicating the feat under pressure could be difficult.

It's no different to what Xavier did to the Avengers and Namor. He came prepped to take Rachel down and was linked with Wolverine and the Avengers. She also blocked his power in World War Hulk X-Men. Also it was stated that Rachel was blocking Namors presence from Xavier.

There is no need to take Wolverine's uninformed, circumstantial (and patently incorrect) character statement over P2 Emma's well-informed, clear (and patently obvious) character statement. Wolverine being stupid within the four corners of the comic =/= writers being stupid outside the four corners in their offices.

Just as there was no need to try to strip any of the P5 from the physical amps they received or the psionic abilities they exhibited to collaterally support P5 Namor having no telepathy. He did. He participated in telepathic conferences, he had a telepathic affair while assaulting Wakanda, P2 Emma said he possessed telepathy blatantly. That may not provide for a flattering comparison between the individual P5 and Xavier, but that's the comics. And that's all I ever tried to say.

Originally posted by ODG
There is no need to take Wolverine's uninformed, circumstantial (and patently incorrect) character statement over P2 Emma's well-informed, clear (and patently obvious) character statement.

That may not provide for a flattering comparison between the individual P5 and Xavier, but that's the comics. And that's all I ever tried to say.

I'm not refering to the fight here. This is about presenting a comic with clarity.

I feel that Gillen was pretty clear with his intent and how he wanted to approach the Phoenix 5 and the unique bond they shared with one another.

Bendis was definitely not as he kept hammering that point within Avengers 28 and 29. Surely clarity of a comic takes presedence. If the idea was to depict Wolverines incompetence surely the resolution to that would be to depict it within the comic? Bendis wouldn't have hammered the point if his intent was to depict the Phoenix 5 that way. And to do it in two comics as well. I'm even looking at the AvX main issues he wrote and it could be read with the same frame of thought in mind.

Aaron was also definitely not either given the confrontation with the Hellfire Brats. If that was the intention.

Hickman was quite clear, the Phoenix 5 had telepathy. But he only wrote one issue with them.

I think Brubakers work was safe. And was left open enough for ambigiouty IRRC.

Fraction had Emma find Hopes location. But it's open ended enough. Cyclops could have been written without it or he could have had it and Emma's telepathy could just be greater.

Hopeless again had an issue where the computer screen that showed Cyclops having telepathy, telekinesis and optic blasts.

I don't remember any of the stuff in Christos Gages comics cause they were quite bad compared to the others.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm not refering to the fight here. This is about presenting a comic with clarity.

I feel that Gillen was pretty clear with his intent and how he wanted to approach the Phoenix 5 and the unique bond they shared with one another.

Bendis was definitely not as he kept hammering that point within Avengers 28 and 29. Surely clarity of a comic takes presedence. If the idea was to depict Wolverines incompetence surely the resolution to that would be to depict it within the comic? Bendis wouldn't have hammered the point if his intent was to depict the Phoenix 5 that way. And to do it in two comics as well. I'm even looking at the AvX main issues he wrote and it could be read with the same frame of thought in mind.

Aaron was also definitely not either given the confrontation with the Hellfire Brats. If that was the intention.

Hickman was quite clear, the Phoenix 5 had telepathy. But he only wrote one issue with them.

I think Brubakers work was safe. And was left open enough for ambigiouty IRRC.

Fraction had Emma find Hopes location. But it's open ended enough. Cyclops could have been written without it or he could have had it and Emma's telepathy could just be greater.

Hopeless again had an issue where the computer screen that showed Cyclops having telepathy, telekinesis and optic blasts.

I don't remember any of the stuff in Christos Gages comics cause they were quite bad compared to the others.

Bendis didn't hammer anything other than making P5 Emma look bad against Rulk and making Rachel look good in a fight (but still out of Xavier's class). And bluntly speaking, limiting P5 Namor to a single issue appearance where Rachel is the star doesn't serve anything but foster a biased viewpoint. After all, I could use that single Rulk issue and argue that P5 Emma would get roflstomped by Void Sentry both physically and telepathically.

P5 Namor was telepathic, they all were and they showed it in other issues. They were the hosts for equal portions of the Phoenixforce, after all. Nuff said.

Originally posted by ODG
[B]^ Just how uniformed Wolverine and Spider-Woman were, was depicted with enough clarity to me.

Bendis didn't hammer anything other than making P5 Emma look bad against Rulk and making Rachel look good in a fight (but still out of Xavier's class). And bluntly speaking, limiting P5 Namor to a single issue appearance where Rachel is the star doesn't serve anything but foster a biased viewpoint. After all, I could use that single Rulk issue and argue that P5 Emma would get roflstomped by Void Sentry both physically and telepathically.

I was using the context of the issue he was taken down in telepathically though to see the writers intent of the incident we were talking about for like half this thread.

And to have Charles Xavier say Rachel was shielding Namor instead of himself? You thought that was clear? In all Honestly?

Is wasn't just Wolverine and Spider-Woman. In the previous issue, Ross makes the same mistake?

What about Jason Aaron, having Emma have to explain to Cyclops who the Hellfire Brats were and what was in their minds? Do you think that was written well?

I guess that's getting off topic anyway. But IMHO I don't think he was trying to showcase Ross', Spider-Woman or Wolverines incompetence. Aaron and him were helming the event. And IMO it looks like it wasn't coordinated very well. But to each their own I guess.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I was using the context of the issue he was taken down in telepathically though to see the writers intent.

And to have Charles Xavier have Rachel shield Namor instead of himself? You thought that was clear? In all Honestly?

Is wasn't just Wolverine and Spider-Man in the previous issue, Ross makes the same mistake?

What about Jason Aaron, having Emma have to explain to Cyclops who the Hellfire Brats were and what was in their minds? Do you think that was written well?

I guess that's getting off topic anyway. But IMHO I don't think he was trying to showcase Ross', Spider-Woman or Wolverines incompetence. Aaron and him were helming the event. And IMO it looks like it wasn't coordinated very well.

I don't know how you obsess over any of this non-evidence crap and ignore something blatant like this:

Or ignore the dozen other telepathic conversations they had throughout the entire series or the fact that it's the phucking Phoenixforce. Might as well argue Thor can't fly or the Thor writers are stupidly confused over his capabilities because sometimes we see him riding horses or walking around in scenes.

The absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Nothing more need be said.

Originally posted by ODG
You're projecting yourself onto the comics. Taking circumstantial poo and trying to remarket it as gold whilst ignoring solid unequivocal evidence.

I don't know how you obsess over any of this non-evidence crap and ignore something blatant like this:

Or ignore the dozen other telepathic conversations they had throughout the entire series or the fact that it's the phucking Phoenixforce. Might as well argue Thor can't fly or the Thor writers are stupidly confused over his capabilities because sometimes we see him riding horses or walking around in scenes.

The absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Nothing more need be said.

Gillens not Bendis though. And I was talking about Bendis' intent. Gillen didn't write Avengers 28 or 29. Gillen had a very clear plan and even talked about the bond of the Phoenix 5 in his interviews and on his forumspring. So it was quite clear. That being said Bendis also had a clear plan but it clashed with the other writers depictions.

And every writer has different takes on the Phoenix Force and what it can and cannot do.

For example the Phoenix was stated to be unable to act on the physical plane without a host in Phoenix Rising. But in AvX it could and broke planets. AvX was supposed to streamline this.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Gillens not Bendis though. And I was talking about Bendis' intent. Gillen didn't write Avengers 28 or 29. Gillen had a very clear plan and even talked about the bond of the Phoenix 5 in his interviews and on his forumspring. So it was quite clear. That being said Bendis also had a clear plan but it clashed with the other writers depictions.

And every writer has different takes on the Phoenix Force and what it can and cannot do.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
For example the Phoenix was stated to be unable to act on the physical plane without a host in Phoenix Rising. But in AvX it could and broke planets. AvX was supposed to streamline this.

You cannot possibly justify such a blatant treatment of the comics. Just because Superman doesn't use superbreath in every comic or sometimes inexplicably doesn't use it when it would have perfectly served the situation he was in or sometimes doesn't use it in a comic he's not even starring in doesn't strip him of the ability to use superbreath. Nor does any of that make Superman writers confused and contradictory over what his powers are.

Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence, ffs. And no matter how many different ways you're trying to present it, you've offered no justification for it.