Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm tempted to address Nai's failed attempts to undermine Sidious's saber feats, and his suggestion that Vitiate can repilicate them, but I have a feeling he has me on ignore from our last debate. It would probably be a waste of time anyway considering he has a history of being persisted even when he is wrong. Still tempted though.
Amusing, coming from a Sidious fanboy who has never been right.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm tempted to address Nai's failed attempts to undermine Sidious's saber feats, and his suggestion that Vitiate can repilicate them, but I have a feeling he has me on ignore from our last debate. It would probably be a waste of time anyway considering he has a history of being persisted even when he is wrong. Still tempted though.
Good god, Gracie.
Instead of wasting precious bandwith with your irrelevant declaration of thoughts, you should have wasted it with your likewise irrelevant take on the issue. No, no, no. Please wait and forgive me.
Of course, your opinion on the issue is most wanted, provided that nobody expects less from you, than an accurate, detailed and objective analysis of Sidious saberskill...given that this creative nickname you've equiped yourself with, doesn't even allow the faintest allusion to the idea, that you, in fact, could be a little bit biased here.
Originally posted by Nai
Good god, Gracie.
Instead of wasting precious bandwith with your irrelevant declaration of thoughts, you should have wasted it with your likewise irrelevant take on the issue. No, no, no. Please wait and forgive me.
Well I didn't want to stoop to your level by constantly replying to a poster who has me on ignore. I don't find any character that important regardless of my like or dislike for them. Beside's I've addressed the same arguments that you're rehashing with other poster, so my argument here would've been meant for you, so why waste time if you had me on ignore?
You don't though, so I guess I will address them.
Originally posted by Nai
Of course, your opinion on the issue is most wanted, provided that nobody expects less from you, than an accurate, detailed and objective analysis of Sidious saberskill...given that this creative nickname you've equiped yourself with, doesn't even allow the faintest allusion to the idea, that you, in fact, could be a little bit biased here.
You worry about all the wrong things. My user name being after a certain character or my bias for that character is not your business. You being bothered by it just goes to show that you really do have some form of a negative obsession with the character.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Still mad that you can't come up with any kind of logical argument, or that you can't properly read? (Hint for the retard: I never said Vitiate stomps Palpatine).
Are you lying now, or do you just have a bad memory? I can quote you if you want.
Lol now go back to getting your ass kicked by a troll.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well I didn't want to stoop to your level by constantly replying to a poster who has me on ignore.
I'm not aware of somebody having me on ignore right now, so I wonder what you may be hinting at.
I don't find any character that important regardless of my like or dislike for them.
Sure thing, pal. Everyone capable of reading the seven letters of your username will certainly believe you.
Beside's I've addressed the same arguments that you're rehashing with other poster, so my argument here would've been meant for you, so why waste time if you had me on ignore?You don't though, so I guess I will address them.
Yes, indeed. Why waste your time...
...with another irrelevant posting explaining your thoughts, rather than addressing my argument.
You worry about all the wrong things. My user name being after a certain character or my bias for that character is not your business. You being bothered by it just goes to show that you really do have some form of a negative obsession with the character.
I'm not "worried" at all, nor am I "bothered" by your username. I was merely pointing out - to the general public - that there could be a correlation between your choice of username and the course of your (later) argument. But maybe you're driven by self-loathing and express that by picking the name of a character you really, really don't like. Who knows, who cares?
Originally posted by Nai
I'm not "worried" at all, nor am I "bothered" by your username. I was merely pointing out - to the general public - that there could be a correlation between your choice of username and the course of your (later) argument. But maybe you're driven by self-loathing and express that by picking the name of a character you really, really don't like. Who knows, who cares?
I'm pretty sure that "the general public" can see what you can. Yes, my username is SIDIOUS 66. Why do you keep harping on the obvious if you have no issue with it?
If you are willing to debate then I will be back on later today and I will address your arguments. But in the mean: stop worrying about things that are not your business.
Basically all I wanted to know is if you had me on ignore, and if you were willing to debate a topic with me. Thanks for letting me know.
Originally posted by Nai
Of course, your opinion on the issue is most wanted, provided that nobody expects less from you, than an accurate, detailed and objective analysis of Sidious saberskill...
Are you still seriously masquerading under the guise of objectivity?
😂
Originally posted by Nai
given that this creative nickname you've equiped yourself with, doesn't even allow the faintest allusion to the idea, that you, in fact, could be a little bit biased here.
Textbook ad hominem argument. SIDIOUS_66’s user name has no bearing on his ability to construct a reasonable argument on Sidious anymore than mine prevents me from debating the weather, Tzeentch from debating Warhammer 40k, and Nephthys on obscure Egyptian gods.
facepalm
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Are you still seriously masquerading under the guise of objectivity?😂
I never have. Read my usertitle. Selfownage much?
Textbook ad hominem argument. SIDIOUS_66’s user name has no bearing on his ability to construct a reasonable argument on Sidious anymore than mine prevents me from debating the weather, Tzeentch from debating Warhammer 40k, and Nephthys on obscure Egyptian gods.facepalm
Oh. You got me. I was actually waiting for him to point that out, which was, apparently, too much to expect.
Originally posted by Nai
Oh. You got me. I was actually waiting for him to point that out, which was, apparently, too much to expect.
lol
Nice try, but no you wasn't, unless you missed the implication when I said "you worry about the wrong things." So maybe it was me who was expecting too much from you.
Now, do you want to debate, or do you want to continue making a fool of yourself
With all that said, if you feel that my bias affects my ability to reason (as it does with Jadams3928 and LeGenD), or if I seemingly have lost touch with reality (which seems to me the case with LeGenD and Jadams3928), then by all means, ignore me. Otherwise, my username, and who I'm arguing for, shouldn't be a problem for you, right?
Originally posted by Nai
I'm not going to accept the idea - which seems to be implied by your reasoning - that the trio consisted of experienced lightsaber [i]duelists.
Just because most of the jedi of that order have never faced a sith lord in a lightsaber duel does not make them inexperienced lightsaber duelists. Jedi still go through training, and have sparring sessions among eachother to keep their skills honed. Yoda did say that they were training to fight the last war with the sith (ROTS novel). So while you can argue that they weren't experienced with the sith, they were, however, prepared for them. After all, before professional fighters are thrown into a ring, they train and prepare themselves first.
Originally posted by Nai
There is, to my knowledge, one recorded lightsaber duel for Kolar - against Quinlan Vos, who was posing at a double-agent not willing to injure/kill his opponent.
Kolar handed Vos his ass in a practical stomp.
Originally posted by Nai
Tiin has no actual lightsaber confrontation on his field record, just one training match against Kenobi, that he lost. Fisto went up against Asajj Ventress, which ended with his defeat and an injury.
He was said to have one of the strongest force abilities of his time (The Official Star Wars Fact File #114), and he does have pretty good reaction speed and precog abilities.
Originally posted by Nai
He did well against Grievous, but also not solely because of his lightsaber abilities. He did utilize the Force to overcome the non-force-sensitive.
No, he didn't. The casual force push served to humiliate Grievous. Fisto disarmed him of one of his sabers and proceeded to force Grievous on the defensive throughout the majority of the duel.
Originally posted by Nai
While I agree that "speed, ferocity and reflexes" are pretty nice to have as a lightsaber combatant, I don't see any reason to suggest that the trio had those "in abundance" based on their station as "celebrated swordsman". Nor do I see a reason why the "convergent threshold" you've mentioned "has to be high" with them.
I assume, and I'm pretty sure you do to, that when referenced in the Complete Visual Dictionary as "celebrated swordsmasters", they were referenced as such by jedi standards, which would include force inhance speed, reflexes and precision - all of which are just as important in a lightsaber duel as technical skill.
Originally posted by Nai
But even assuming, that there was some reason behind Mace's judgement, we're right back at the fact, that the actual combat showings of the trio lead to the suggestion, that they are below Obi-Wan Kenobi in skill. That's certainly nothing to scoff at, but it's still nowhere close to the likes of Mace himself.
What showings suggest that they are below Kenobi? If anything, there are showings that actually suggest that Fisto may be Kenobi's superior in sabers, considering that he did have to hold back when sparring with Kenobi, and the fact that he completely tooled Grievous in combat whereas Kenobi consistently struggles against the cyborg.
Originally posted by Nai
Rather than "facts" one could say, that you're ignoring one fact: that Sidious force aided speed was his key to victory.
And Yoda's force aided inhancements are the key to him being able to engage in a lightsaber duel at all. Otherwise, he can barely even walk. This does not make him any less of a lightsaber duelist. As with Sidious, Yoda can apply his force inhancements skillfully in a lightsaber duel. This is both Yoda's and Sidious's biggest advantage against most in sabers. In fact, Yoda's mastery in his prefered style owes more to his force aided abilities than anything else.
You seem to consider both Yoda and Mace to be very skilled, while you say Palpatine is not so skilled, but instead relies on his force inhancements. Then why didn't either of them seem to hold a huge advantage against Sidious despite the fact that they had seemingly stalemated Palpatine in speed. The only reason Yoda had the upperhand in his saber duel against Sidious, was because Sidious was at a disadvantageous position, being unable to move around on the podium they were fighting on, and yet Sidious was still holding his own against him.
So while I will agree that Yoda is more skilled than Palpatine, I don't see anything to suggest he is miles ahead of him.
Originally posted by Nai
"Approbiate impressive martial prowess"? How so, Eminence? Because he managed to decimating three Jedi Masters of relatively unknown skill in seconds? Vitiate apparently doesn't even need to ignite a lightsaber to do the same. Your point?And it strikes me as odd to proclaim, that Vitiate hasn't demonstrated any kind of "impressive" martial prowess. Does the term "martial" now exclusively refer to the use of a lightsaber? Can't we file "anything a character can do in a confration" under that headline? Shouldn't we take everything Vitiate can do in a direct confrontation into consideration, rather than sticking to lightsaber abilities, that Vitiate simple doesn't care about, because - for more than 1,300 years - he still hasn't met a single being capable of withstanding his force powers [before meeting the Hero of Tython]?
Surely, Vitiate does rely on his force abilities, rather than utilizing a lightsaber. Perhabs he has good reason to do so, given the demonstrations of his force powers. Put the Sith Emperor in Palpatines situation in RotS. Would Vitiate have ignited a lightsaber to charge the four Jedi? Possible not. Would they have stood a chance if Vitiate had decided to unleash his force powers agains them? I seriously doubt it. Now try it the other way around. Put Sidious up against Revan, the Exile and Lord Scourge. Do you honestly think there is a even a 50/50 chance for him winning?
And even if Vitiate lacks constant lightsaber training, who is to say, that he can't wield the weapon with the same force aided, deadly efficiency, that Sidious utilized in his lightsaber fights? I don't see much evidence contradicting that idea.
Vitiate never needing a lightsaber against far weaker opponents than himself, helps him how here? Yoda doesn't need a lightsaber for the majority of force users of his era, seeing how he can completely paralyze and disarm Ventress - one of the top duelists of the time - with the force alone, but when he was out to kill Sidious, what did he resort to? Usually when two force users are near equals in the force, they usually have to resort to a saber duel.
Your suggestion that Vitiate can replicate Sidious' lightsaber feats by virtue of being powerful, lacks any basis what so ever. If that's the case, why didn't Starkiller blitz Shaak Ti considering he was far more powerful than her. Why didn't Dooku Blitz Kenobi in AOTC, or any jedi for that matter, despite being far more powerful than most of them? For all Bane's power and speed, when has he blitzed any opponent? In fact, when has any dark sider blitzed another force user before they were able to react, as Palpatine has? It's silly to apply Palpatine's speed feats to Vitiate, when Vitiate has no feats in that area. Vitiate has never honed his physical abilities the way Palpatine has. Plaguies had Palpatine face many trials to hone his force inhanced physical abilities. Palpatine was trained to focus the force for speed, and how to apply it in saber combat; Vitiate was not as far as I know. So if you want to go down the road of speculation, then I can too.
Okay, so let me get this straight.
You're saying that Vitiate, who has virutally no lightsaber skills, only won fights dominating the minds of his enemies, yes he trapped hundreds of dark aparitions on Dromund Kaas and dominated the minds of Jedi Masters and Sith Lords and demonstrated the ability to overpower Revan, Surik, or Malak in single combat, but was just about to be beaten by the combination of Meetra Surik and Revan before Lord Scourge stepped in, and that is the peak of his skill which ultimately demonstrated disentigration of a droid by way of TK...something out performed by Sidious' master Plagueis who ATOMIZED six assailants with TK...and outdone in TK by Yoda who handled near Star Destroyer sized Droid Starships or Galen Marek who brought down a Star Destroyer, or Mace Windu who fought hundreds of times faster than a normal Jedi and used Vapaad, which corrupted other Jedi's to the Dark Side, can defeat Sidious, described as a Black Hole in the Force, who Force drained the Jedi order or used Mass Sever Force, or a combination of both, orchestrated Anakin Skywalker's Virgin Birth along-side his master using a ritual that almost succeeded in covering the galaxy in the Dark Side, slayed hundreds of enemies alongside his master, Sidious who pulverizes three Jedi Masters; outspars Darth Maul, who's killing assassin droids in seconds with precision, with effortless control in a duel; Forces Yoda and Galen Marek to relent and admit defeat, kills an entire legion of Clone Troopers with Force Lightning, slayed an army with his lightsaber, single handidly controlled the minds of billions of Storm Troopers and Imperial Officers in unpresented displays of Battle Meditation at the Death Star II, turns enemies into ash with Force lightning, generated violent Force storms that ripped the surfaces off of planets, subjugated billions on Coruscant to keep a hidden Star Destroyer secret, subjugated billions on Byss and fed off of their essences for six years, studied Dark secrets spanning billions of worlds for those same six years, atomized a lightsaber, was unharmed by a thousand tons of steel collapsing on him and unscathed by Galen Marek's kamakaze attack, a Sith who increased the Force sensitivity in his subject like Nihilus would sever Force, except the reverse in INCREASING the sensitivity of his subjects, and finally, a Sith Emperor who's spirit is currently being wrestled with, held down, and contained by the hundreds of Spirits of former Jedi who became one with the Force...?
You're crazy.
If this is ROTJ Sidious Vs ToR MMO Vitiate, even before being weakened by the ritual, this is what he'll be saying at the end of their duel;
Vitiate is immensely powerful, but the product of a millennium of Bane's ingenius and messianically "Sith'ari" revised Rule of Two is sorely stronger...even Plagueis could be considered more powerful as his apprentice was forced to electrocute him in an intoxicated state before Sidious succeeded in beocming a "black hole in the Force".
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Kolar handed Vos his ass in a practical stomp.
And Vos's feats are what? Getting beat on by Cad Bane??
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He was said to have one of the strongest force abilities of his time (The Official Star Wars Fact File #114), and he does have pretty good reaction speed and precog abilities.
Which means what??
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, he didn't. The casual force push served to humiliate Grievous.
Don't make up your own reaosns for why he resorted to a force push. Fact is he only put Grievous on his ass with use of the Force.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Fisto disarmed him of one of his sabers
He took that arm by surprise while Grievous was gloating at him.
And Notice how he wasn't able to remove another arm after that??
Before he took that arm he kept hiding from Grievous.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and proceeded to force Grievous on the defensive throughout the majority of the duel.
That was impressive, I'll give you that.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I assume, and I'm pretty sure you do to, that when referenced in the Complete Visual Dictionary as "celebrated swordsmasters", they were referenced as such by jedi standards, which would include force inhance speed, reflexes and precision - all of which are just as important in a lightsaber duel as technical skill.
This is all relative to thousands of Jedi. So doesn't mean much when comparing to the top PT Saber duelists.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What showings suggest that they are below Kenobi? If anything, there are showings that actually suggest that Fisto may be Kenobi's superior in sabers, considering that he did have to hold back when sparring with Kenobi, and the fact that he completely tooled Grievous in combat whereas Kenobi consistently struggles against the cyborg.
Oh not this crap again! ROTS Kenobi stomped Grievous in seconds. All the supposed "struggling" your claiming were context specific. Fisto never faced Grievous in an enclosed space.
And Grievous is the most unreliable medium to compare different Jedi with.
Ashoka was almost stalemating Grievous recently! So what does that mean Kenobi would struggle to beat Ashoka?!
Beating Grievous with the aid of the Force is hardly the Uber feat now that it once was.
Nai
For the Jedi, Mace Windu makes it pretty clear in AotC: "[...]our ability to use the Force has diminished." Is there any particular field mentioned or even a single ability? No. It's a general statement for the Jedi's weakening control in regards to using the force.
Attack of the Clones
Yoda: Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.
Mace Windu: I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.
As to the rest, there seems to be some sort of concord in this thread to deliberately misread every third point I try to make. I suppose it's possible that despite the deliberate qualifiers preceding some of my more [controversial!] arguments (and the clarification about the first big one questioned) I'm simply not being clear enough. I'll go over that stuff again, briefly, in the next few days.