Originally posted by Star Wars LogicExcept you only claimed that they were a blur after I said that.
Wookieepedia hasn't contradicted any of my points. In fact, they proved the Zeison Sha Warriors can pull down ships with minimal effort. Khem Val verified his Dark Lord was a Master of Telekinesis on Star Wars The Old Republic.A master of Telekinesis is the required achievement to reach in order to pull down ships with minimal effort. Oh and every single Zeison Sha Warrior meets that requirement.
Concerning the Matukai, Pwned already said himself. "Anyone can make a whirlwind, but not a blur" and yet instead of Matukai Adepts just creating a Blur when they fight or run. Matukai Adepts are fast and strong enough to create a "whirlwind" blur just using their fist and feet, or just using complex martial acrobatics.
Wookieepedia shot down all of your points, and now you're just simply disagreeing. Suck it up and S.T.F.U 🙂
And go ahead and think he is, "running away", some people have actual lives.
Wookieepedia hasn't contradicted any of my points. In fact, they proved the Zeison Sha Warriors can pull down ships with minimal effort. Khem Val verified his Dark Lord was a Master of Telekinesis on Star Wars The Old Republic.A master of Telekinesis is the required achievement to reach in order to pull down ships with minimal effort. Oh and every single Zeison Sha Warrior meets that requirement.
Nope, because mastery and high force potential are both required. Skill alone isn't sufficient.
Also, most Zeison Sha aren't warriors, btw, only their strongest can claim that.
Also-also, multiple Jedi have done the ship thing. Heck, Rivi-Anu, a Jedi Knight, not even a master, just promoted from Padawan did it!
Concerning the Matukai, Pwned already said himself. "Anyone can make a whirlwind, but not a blur" and yet instead of Matukai Adepts just creating a Blur when they fight or run. Matukai Adepts are fast and strong enough to create a "whirlwind" blur just using their fist and feet, or just using complex martial acrobatics.
And so are Jedi. Having them move as blurs has both been mentioned and seen, and moving like a whirlwind is part of some of their lightsaber styles.
Wookieepedia shot down all of your points, and now you're just simply disagreeing. Suck it up and S.T.F.U
Nope. Your first one is just speculating and assuming all TK masters are the same, a poor assumption- and if right, that would include Jedi TK masters as well, so that still wouldn't put them above Jedi.
Your second one... well, it's something Jedi have been described doing. So it's not something that makes them better, it just makes them some of the ones who can do it.
Look, this time you're just trying to copy me when I say, "The sources say you're wrong." Except when I do it, I'm doing it based on direct statements from the sources. When you're doing it, you're making shaky assumptions and drawing parallels based on said shaky assumptions- and then applying those assumptions unevenly, because if you applied them consistently it'd boost your hated Jedi too.
"Source says you're wrong," doesn't work if you stay making assumption beyond what's written. In this case, yours apply only if all masters of TK can pull ships from the sky... and there's a lot of masters of TK, so that argument doesn't serve your conclusion of them being the stronger order 🙂
Originally posted by PwnedNo i didn't.
Except you only claimed that they were a blur after I said that.And go ahead and think he is, "running away", some people have actual lives.
I said previously that Matukai Adepts are blurs when they Run, and they are whirlwind blurs of limbs and movement when they fight using Hand-to-Hand, and they are virtual whirlwinds when using their weapons.
Jar-Kar doesn't create a blur, just a brilliant whirlwind that is easy to see. A brilliant whirlwind isn't at the speed of a Matukai Adept's Hand-to-Hand combat. Since A Matukai can create a "Whirlwind" BLUR of limbs and movement, using complex martial sequences, like Patterned Punches, Patterned Kicks, and patterned complex Acrobatics.
Q99 dosen't have a life since she tried to justify the meaning of geek, which is.
geek
1. An unfashionable or socially inept person.
2. A person with an eccentric devotion to a particular interest: "a computer geek".
You say Q99 has a LIFE? What person with a life, goes to the extent of buying a 39,99$ board game over the internet, in attempt to prove her arguments? That chick has NO LIFE whatsoever. And now every time i come online she goes offline, and every time i go offline she then chooses to start stating her little opinions (While im offline).
Q99 is scared of me, since everything i have said is true.
I guess that saying is true. "The Truth stabs more deeper then any blade"
Originally posted by Q99No? Khem Val quoted in Star Wars The Old Republic "The Graet Tulak Hord once pulled a ship this size from the sky, he was master of telekinesis" he said nothing about High Force Potential. That part "High Force Potential" is what you added.
Nope, because mastery and high force potential are both required. Skill alone isn't sufficient.Also, most Zeison Sha aren't warriors, btw, only their strongest can claim that.
Also-also, multiple Jedi have done the ship thing. Heck, Rivi-Anu, a Jedi Knight, not even a master, just promoted from Padawan did it!
And so are Jedi. Having them move as blurs has both been mentioned and seen, and moving like a whirlwind is part of some of their lightsaber styles.
Nope. Your first one is just speculating and assuming all TK masters are the same, a poor assumption- and if right, that would include Jedi TK masters as well, so that still wouldn't put them above Jedi.
Your second one... well, it's something Jedi have been described doing. So it's not something that makes them better, it just makes them some of the ones who can do it.
Look, this time you're just trying to copy me when I say, "The sources say you're wrong." Except when I do it, I'm doing it based on direct statements from the sources. When you're doing it, you're making shaky assumptions and drawing parallels based on said shaky assumptions- and then applying those assumptions unevenly, because if you applied them consistently it'd boost your hated Jedi too.
"Source says you're wrong," doesn't work if you stay making assumption beyond what's written. In this case, yours apply only if all masters of TK can pull ships from the sky... and there's a lot of masters of TK, so that argument doesn't serve your conclusion of them being the stronger order 🙂
Khem Val witnessed his Dark lord pull down ships, later saying Tulak Hord was a master of Telekinesis. Nothing More Nothing less.
And every Zeison Sha Warrior is a Master of Telekinesis, so they can do the same thing, just with minimal effort.
And here's where you are adding and Deleting in the Zeison Sha's numbers and prowess, saying "Most of the Zeison Sha weren't Warriors" Here's Wikidot's Source on the Zeison Sha Warriors in the Star Wars Role-playing game Hero's guide.
Zeison Sha Warrior Class
The most talented Force-Users among the Zeison Sha become warriors. They use their telekinetic powers to their fullest and are experienced masters of the discblade weapon. Many of the beings from the Yanibar colony owe their lives to the vigilance of powerful Zeison Sha Warriors, and many in galaxy at large who have encountered Zeison Sha traveling the stars can attest to their prowess.
The Zeison Sha Warriors can ascend into the sky, using their telekinetic force power known as "Force Flight"
Here's Bodo Baas's quote concerning the Zeison Sha Warriors telekinetic powers. Wookieepedia
"I had heard that Zeison Sha are masters of the telekinetic powers, but I was astonished to see that their abilities in this area far surpass those of many Jedi."
―Jedi Master Bodo Baas[src]
And here's the Zeison Sha's history concerning their numbers.
The Zeison Sha were known and established as an independent Force organization as early as 4,000 BBY.[3] A major development of Zeison Sha history occurred near the beginning of the New Sith Wars when many friends and families of the Jedi, numbering in the thousands, fled to form a refuge from Sith attacks. The group established a small colony on the harsh Outer Rim world of Yanibar. Once the refuge was established, the colonists expected the Jedi to return for them once the wars had ended. Little did they know that every Jedi with knowledge of the refuge had died in combat, taking the secret of the families and friends with them to their graves.[1] Due to Yanibar's seasonal extremes, most of the original settlers died in the first few years after landing there.[2]
So Zeison Sha Warriors numbered somewhere in the thousands after the first few years of landing on the planet Yanibar. Since Zeison Sha Warriors were originally the refugees and friends of the Jedi, left on the planet to die.
So in short. The Zeison Sha Warriors are so powerful, most beings in the galaxy that encountered Zeison Sha Warriors could attest to the very same prowess i said and proved.
There aren't many Jedi that Mastered Telekinesis, if Jedi did master Telekinesis, they could do the same thing Jedi Master Yoda did. I told you before, if you have proof of these many Jedi that are capable of the same telekinetic mastery feat Tulak Hord Demonstrated, list at least 13 Jedi capable of the said feat?
You couldn't present evidence of these many jedi that are capable of the said telekinetic feat, because little to No Jedi are capable of the same telekinetic feat Tulak Hord demonstrated. Neither are they capable of the same said replicated telekinetic feat the Zeison Sha Warriors have as a common feat. The only Jedi example there is concerning mastery of Telekinesis is Yoda. Yoda proved he was a master of telekinesis. Bodo Baas proved the Zeison Sha Warriors are masters of the telekinetic powers and that their ability in the said area far surpass those of most Jedi, famed and otherwise.
You're wrong, the Zeison Sha Warriors are not the Strongest among their order. The Few Zeison Sha Elite Warriors are the most powerful of their order. Heck it was already said that "the Zeison Sha Elite Warriors stood as prime examples to the Zeison Sha Warriors" The Zeison Sha Warriors were the most numberous of their order, not the most of their order powerful.
There is no speculation to what i have said and posted from Wikidot and Wookieepedia. The Zeison Sha Warriors are so powerful, many beings in the galaxy that encountered them traveling the stars, could attest to the very same prowess.
The Hero's Guide, Bodo Baas, and Khem Val proved everything i have said about the Zeison Sha Warriors, in different ways. All in all, take your Jedi Fanboyism somewhere else.
Except we have other sources which state that Tulak Hord was an incredibly strong Force User for his era, as well as the fact he was a leading Sith Lord (Possibly Dark Lord) of the Sith Empire.
Go quote the part where you said they were blurs before I said it. Because you only started giving them that feat after I said that many Jedi were of the, "blur" tier, while Matukai were, "whirlwind" tier.
I am getting really sick of refuting your arguments.... So go on with your lies and attempts at being, "superior" to people, because none of it is real. I feel obliged to tell you this.
Also, note how SWL is trying to shift around his arguments, add new stuff the Matukai/ZS/whoever 'did'...
But they all still suffer the same problem, none of it is stuff the Matukai or ZS were seen doing, and end of the day, these were orders that were, respectively, almost destroyed/afraid of and avoided, the Imperial Inquisition, an organization largely made up of former Jedi who weren't in the top tier.
Heck, his best argument so far is, "Because Tulak Hord did it, maybe other masters can do it!"... and there's Jedi TK masters so that'd apply to them, and we have Jedi actually doing it rather than just assuming they could.
Originally posted by PwnedYeah Tulak Hord was a very powerful Force User. But he was also a Master Of Telekinesis, which is why he was able to pull down ships.
Except we have other sources which state that Tulak Hord was an incredibly strong Force User for his era, as well as the fact he was a leading Sith Lord (Possibly Dark Lord) of the Sith Empire.Go quote the part where you said they were blurs before I said it. Because you only started [B]giving
them that feat after I said that many Jedi were of the, "blur" tier, while Matukai were, "whirlwind" tier.I am getting really sick of refuting your arguments.... So go on with your lies and attempts at being, "superior" to people, because none of it is real. I feel obliged to tell you this. [/B]
You want me to Go to the quote where i mentioned Matukai Adepts being Whirlwind BLURS?
That's 1st post of this thread and the 1st page smart alec.
Originally posted by Q99What do you mean shift?
Also, note how SWL is trying to shift around his arguments, add new stuff the Matukai/ZS/whoever 'did'...But they all still suffer the same problem, none of it is stuff the Matukai or ZS were seen doing, and end of the day, these were orders that were, respectively, almost destroyed/afraid of and avoided, the Imperial Inquisition, an organization largely made up of former Jedi who weren't in the top tier.
Heck, his best argument so far is, "Because Tulak Hord did it, maybe other masters can do it!"... and there's Jedi TK masters so that'd apply to them, and we have Jedi actually doing it rather than just assuming they could.
I was just posting the information about the Zeison Sha from sites like, Wikidot. And Wookieepedia. which stands as evidence, there is nothing NEW being added.
The Zeison Sha Warriors weren't afraid of the Empire. If you read about them, They are an isolationist type order. They never wished to bring too much attention to themselfs before and after the rise of the empire, they keep to themselfs.
The Matukai Adepts were all assassinated by individuals they couldn't detect, while they where unknowingly being hunted.
Khem Val stated his Dark Lord was a master of telekinesis after telling the Sith inquisitor that "The Great Tulak Hord Once pulled a Ship this size from the Sky" The Zeison Sha Warriors are all Masters of Telekinesis, which says they can replicate the exact same thing, just with minimal effort.
Heck the Zeison Sha's common abilities are great Feats of Telekinetic proficiency with minimal effort and Wookieepedia proved it with this.
Common abilities
"I had heard that Zeison Sha are masters of the telekinetic powers, but I was astonished to see that their abilities in this area far surpass those of many Jedi."
―Jedi Master Bodo Baas[src]
As a Force organization, the Zeison Sha specialized in telekinetic abilities, able to perform great feats of skill with minimal effort, ranging from levitating objects to knocking over enemies or even crushing them with the power of the Force. Their telekinetic ability was, in many ways, superior to that evidenced by many members of the Jedi Order. Zeison Sha warriors were largely known as the guardians of the community and their powers in telekinesis and mastery of the discblade garnered them considerable prowess. Some even possessed the power to use telekinesis for defense, using rocks and other loose objects to block blaster bolts, or even using the Force itself to create a physical shield.[1] This was described as the Zeison Sha wrapping the Force around his or her body to resist damage.[4]
All in all, Zeison Sha Warriors have the capability of ascending into the Sky (Flying) and pull down ships of all sizes.
If you have these "many Jedi Masters that are capable of pulling down ships" Link 13 of these many Jedi Masters capable of the said telekinetic feat? If you can't, S.T.F.U about it. And stop trying to point out false change points in what i said, after i go offline.
Oh...... i think this just might close the Argument Concerning the Zeison Sha's telekinetic strength.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telekinesis
Among the most skilled users of telekinesis were the Zeison Sha. Neither Jedi nor Sith, their skilled use of telekinetic force use was developed over decades of simply surviving their planet's harsh environment, surpassing even some of the most powerful of Jedi in their skills. Their weapon of choice was a discblade, a circular bladed weapon that was thrown and manipulated with the Force and could be recalled. It required great skill in telekinesis to be wielded effectively.
So that says, the telekinetic feat done by Jedi Dorsk 81, can be replicated by the current generation Zeison Sha Warriors.
Awwwwww **** Now we know which Orders are the Most powerful in specific Areas.
The Mental Telekinetic Area belongs to The Zeison Sha.
The Physical Area Belongs to the Matukai.
The Spiritual Area belongs to the Aing Tii.
The Balanced Area belongs to the Jedi Order.
The Senses Area belongs to the Baran Do.
The Illusion Fabrications Area Belongs to the Sorcerers Of Tund.
Now its all clear to me, Thanks for debating with me Q99 😉 💃 💃 💃
Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Awwwwww **** Now we know which Orders are the Most powerful in specific Areas.The Mental Telekinetic Area belongs to The Zeison Sha.
The Physical Area Belongs to the Matukai.
The Spiritual Area belongs to the Aing Tii.
The Balanced Area belongs to the Jedi Order.
The Senses Area belongs to the Baran Do.
The Illusion Fabrications Area Belongs to the Sorcerers Of Tund.Now its all clear to me, Thanks for debating with me Q99 😉 💃 💃 💃
(the Fallanassi were also extremely good at illusion)
Alright, I think you've got it!
... but, I think I'd like to risk going into another aspect, beyond that, that affects power. For all of the above, that certainly applies to how their training compares.
That is to say, if you gave each of them a Mace Windu, Matukai Mace would be the best martial artist, Baran Do Mace the best sensor, and Zeison Sha the best telekinetic, while Jedi Mace sits in the middle. Each given someone of Top Elite potential, they'll shape that top elite in their own ways.
However, and I think you can see this coming, not all of them have a Mace! People of top elite force potential are rare, so there's another factor that affects power, recruitment. If an order is limited to one planet, then if no-one happens to be especially powerful in a particular generation, they won't be as strong as they are in a generation with stronger people. If the Baran Do happen to not have anyone with very high level force potential on their planet, ah well, they've got to make do with more moderate power comes along.
It's like how sometimes the old Sith Empire had a Marka Ragnos, and something you had a Darth Andeddu (who, while pretty strong, was outmatched by the second strongest of the One Sith), because in their few hundred worlds, there would only inconsistently be top-tier people, it'd vary generation to generation.
So the big orders that select from the whole galaxy looking for the strongest don't have better training, but they have the largest recruiting pool to find people of high potential, and are thus more likely to have more people who can do the biggest stuff their order can provide.
(And that's pretty much all I have to say about it)
Originally posted by PwnedNo. its clear to me now.
I... I think he finally realized what we said 10 pages ago.....
The Zeison Sha are the most powerful order of Light Side Force Sensitives. The Reasons why i said that is due to this.
Zeison Sha Warriors develop mentally just by surviving their planet's harsh ecosystem.
Random Zeison Sha Warriors numbering somewhere in the thousands had already surpassed even some of the most powerful Jedi in their proficiency in telekinesis. Zeison Sha Warriors can all fly using Force Flight. Zeison Sha Warriors can pull down ships of all sizes with minimal effort. The Zeison are not only the Most powerful order in terms of telekinetic abilities, but also they are very powerful combatants and experienced masters of the discblade. The Zeison Sha Order possesses the Highest known Survival rate. That's why they are deemed the Best Light Side Order
This proved what i said concerning their telekinetic prowess. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telekinesis
The Reason why the Matukai Order are deemed the 2nd most powerful light side force order is due to this.
The Matukai are the most powerful light side order physically. They can never run out of stamina, and once use their tireless inner energies to refresh their spirits while being fatigued, its provides immediate replenishment and permanent augmentation in the Matukai's strength and power.
The Matukai adepts cannot be killed by any poisons and manufactured illnesses.
Matukai are the fastest in terms of speed due to the fact they reached the body maneuverability of a "whirlwind" blur, just using their fist and feet. The Matukai are even faster with their wan-shens. A matukai Adept's weapon maneuverability speed was already described as a Virtual Whirlwind of metal and blades. Or in other words a moving helicopter's propeller.
The Matukai Order's philosophy is the reason they don't have any Light vs Dark Conflicts among their own.
The Matukai order are the most strongest physically, and the most fastest physically, along with having a perfect mindset as a light side order. This proved what i said about the Matukai. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Matukai
The Aing Tii are the most powerful Gray Order.
The Jedi are the 3rd most powerful Light side order.
If Q99 never debated me as much as she did, i would have never decided to take a deeper look into these orders, discovering the truth behind their powers
Zeison Sha Ranks 1st as a Light Side Order.
Matukai Ranks 2nd as a Light Side Order.
Jedi Ranks 3rd as a Light Side Order.
The Aing Tii Ranks 1st as a Gray Order.
The Celestial Ones rank 2nd as a Gray Order. 😉 💃 💃 💃
God damn it, he is still as ignorant as earlier.
Versatility>Specialization. That's why Jedi take this. Not to mention that the, "discblade" works the same way throwing a lightsaber does.
And how many Jedi have outperformed the Zeison Sha at their own game. Look at the examples provided by Wookieepedia, all it says is that the Zeison Sha are good. The Jedi? One pushed seventeen Star Destroyers out of the whole damn star system. Luke has made it so a black hole couldn't. The Zeison Sha have shown absolutely nothing. You assume they can pull ships out of the air. Guess what? They can't. Just because they master TK does not mean they have the raw power/Force reserves to do that.
The Sha/Matukai can have second most powerful, but the Jedi undeniably take it for so many reasons you refuse to see.
Originally posted by PwnedYeah, the kid has a brain/ego problem. He's not easing down or backing up one inch, no matter what you tell him. And it looks like he has unlimited stamina for this kind of thing, so this going to be an eternal uphill battle.
God damn it, he is still as ignorant as earlier.
Originally posted by Pwned
I don't really know much about them.
The Jedi consider them grey, but they still follow the light side. 'As personified by the Emperor/Empress' (who is a trained Imperial Knight themselves). They serve a role somewhat like the Jedi do to the Republic in the Fel Empire, but are more directly linked to the military and sorta like CW Jedi some serve as active commanders.
They have training similar to and likely split off from the Jedi (and have some former Jedi in them), only they wear armor and wear cortosis gauntlets. They use lightsabers, but with identical white blades.
They're fewer in number than the Jedi but are still a reasonably sized organization, and they seem to be set up to be elite (I.e. they're meant for combat so you aren't considered an IK until you're strong enough to be fully ready for the battlefield, knights-in-training aren't considered Imperial Knights yet, not like Jedi Padawans). Several of the known Imperial Knights match up pretty well against some of the more combat-oriented Jedi Masters and Sith Lords of the time.
Originally posted by PwnedIf you want to talk about versatility, the Zeison Sha have both the highest degree of specialization in the telekinetic aspects of proficiency as well as versatility.
God damn it, he is still as ignorant as earlier.Versatility>Specialization. That's why Jedi take this. Not to mention that the, "discblade" works the same way throwing a lightsaber does.
. Luke has made it so a black hole couldn't. The Zeison Sha have shown absolutely nothing. You assume they can pull ships out of the air. Guess what? They can't. Just because they master TK does not mean they have the raw power/Force reserves to do that.
And how many Jedi have outperformed the Zeison Sha at their own game. Look at the examples provided by Wookieepedia, all it says is that the Zeison Sha are good. The Jedi? One pushed seventeen Star Destroyers [B]out of the whole damn star systemThe Sha/Matukai can have second most powerful, but the Jedi undeniably take it for so many reasons you refuse to see. [/B]
The Zeison Sha were mastered of using their melee weapons the same way a jedi mastered using his lightsaber.
The Zeison Sha were powerful combatants without their disc blades, and without usage of telekinetic abilities.
Thousands of random Zeison Sha Warriors, and ones that weren't notables, had surpassed even some of the most powerful Jedi in their telekinetic skills on average. Some of these most powerful Jedi telekinetic users are. Yoda, Revan, Nomi Sunrider.
Also you forget this. What Dorsk 81 did was a teamwork effort..... And one that succeeded. Dorsk 81 utilized the channeled Force powers of all available Jedi of Luke Skywalker's Jedi Praxeum, used telekinesis to push seventeen Imperial I-class Star Destroyers out of the Yavin system. And even though he did that. The massive amount of Force energy claimed the Jedi's life. Dorsk 81 died because he was not a powerful telekinetic/force user. Which is why he couldn't withstand the force energy.
Heck The Zeison Sha Warriors used their telekinetic force powers to form a giant telekinetic shield over the yanibar colony, to protect the colonist from the seasonal extremes of the planet.
Most of the yanibar colony owe their lives to the vigilance of powerful Zeison Sha Warriors. Even the Zeison Sha Warrior's description in the Star Wars Role-playing game hero's guide said the exact same thing🙂
The Zeison Sha Warriors themselfs managed a giant telekinetic force shield over their colony. And because of the vigilance of powerful Zeison Sha Warriors, the yanibar colony owe their lives to their warrior protectors.
That's how the Zeison Sha developed their telekinetic force powers, just by simply surviving their planet's harsh ecosystem.
Dorsk 81's telekinetic telekinetic display can be replicated by the Zeison Sha Warriors. The Zeison Sha's Elite Warriors can telekinetically replicate the same display of telekinesis caused by the Jedi praxeum's massive combination of force energy, just with minimum effort.