Matukai, The 2nd Most Powerful Lightside Force organization

And as for what you say about the Jedi not Neglecting the physical side, im not about to explain why again on this thread, go to the Matukai thread i have posted, the new reply i have posted there explains why the jedi have grown weak physically without me wasting the time repeating the same thing.

This is the Matukai thread.

Also, you have said that they neglected it, but no sources, and people have provided evidence that you're wrong, giving demonstrations of Jedi who are very much not lacking in training in that area, like Mace Windu.

So, you're wrong. The Jedi aren't physically weak, many are physically focused.

You're just asking us to assume a weakness on their part based on nothing.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Another thing i forgot to mention was. I looked at the Zeison Sha article, Matukai article, and Marka Ragnos article from time-to-time for 3 years nothing tampered with during that time, but when i posted subjects conserning those names being the most powerful in specific areas on this site, thats when the changes in the article's literature began to show, and by you being the first to disagree and attempt to contradict it with whatever evidence you may have had, whether it was biased or factual, provided that you previously admitted that your original idea was to change my mind by bringing about whatever notables & refferences possible. YOU EDITED the Zeison Sha article and Marka Ragnos article.

Ok, so you're saying I edited the Zeison Sha, Marka Ragnos, and Matukai articles?

Let me introduce you to the glory of Edit Logs!

Marka Ragnos's edit logs

Matukai edit logs

Zeison Sha edit logs

Oh hey, what's that? There are *zero names* in common between editors of any of the three editors, no-one who edited one of them edited either of the others.

And what else is this? The Zeison Sha and Matukai and Marka Ragnos have *no major edits* since well before the beginning of these two threads! Only minor tag-edits and typo fixes that change nothing in terms of actual content on what they can or can't do! Nothing that deleted the info that you said should be there!

Unless you're accusing me of editing either reality or your brain, it's entirely clear that you made up the edits because you didn't want to admit you're wrong.

And having demonstrated those edits don't exist, that rather concretely demonstrates you're wrong, because you were relying on edited-away information to prove your point, and it's simply not there.

Originally posted by Q99
This is the Matukai thread.

Also, you have said that they neglected it, but no sources, and people have provided evidence that you're wrong, giving demonstrations of Jedi who are very much not lacking in training in that area, like Mace Windu.

So, you're wrong. The Jedi aren't physically weak, many are physically focused.

You're just asking us to assume a weakness on their part based on nothing.

Ok, so you're saying I edited the Zeison Sha, Marka Ragnos, and Matukai articles?

Let me introduce you to the glory of Edit Logs!

Marka Ragnos's edit logs

Matukai edit logs

Zeison Sha edit logs

Oh hey, what's that? There are *zero names* in common between editors of any of the three editors, no-one who edited one of them edited either of the others.

And what else is this? The Zeison Sha and Matukai and Marka Ragnos have *no major edits* since well before the beginning of these two threads! Only minor tag-edits and typo fixes that change nothing in terms of actual content on what they can or can't do! Nothing that deleted the info that you said should be there!

Unless you're accusing me of editing either reality or your brain, it's entirely clear that you made up the edits because you didn't want to admit you're wrong.

And having demonstrated those edits don't exist, that rather concretely demonstrates you're wrong, because you were relying on edited-away information to prove your point, and it's simply not there.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
The Matukai are the most powerful at using the force to channel the body, and them being known for never running out of stamina while gaining continual physical Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and spiritual power without limit are proof of that, provided that they were known as combat whirlwinds & typhoons.

Basically the Matukai adepts broke the physical & spiritual capabilities limit that their bodies originally had and wookieepedia proves that.

The Zeison Sha's Elite Warriors were unparalelled in Telekinesis and other Telekinetic force Powers, to the point to where they stood as prime examples to the already unmatched masters of telekinetics the lower ranked Zeison Sha Warriors. Zeison Sha Elite Warriors can crush someone's body within seconds either using their mind, or using the power of the force. The Zeison Sha order have many more feats & proficiencies but i have already described them so repeating them would be a waste of time. The Zeison Sha are the Most Powerful Light Side Force Organization.

Your fanboyism for these groups is cute and all, but you provide no real evidence. On the Zeison Sha thread, Q99 has stated that he has gone through all the sources you have mentioned and more, and found nothing to support your arguments. He has further refuted any claims you have made regarding edits to Wookiepedia, as he has examined the edits made to it, and has even showed you them. It's not his fault that you ignore it. You have nothing to back up your claims. You can't just take a simple claim regarding something, and use it to make wild proclamations. Sure, some parts will allow you to infer things from the text, but you take it to such a level that it is ridiculous.

For example, you take that the Matukai were known as "combat whirlwinds" (never even bothering to provide the source for the statement), and use it to claim that they are therefore faster and better than the Jedi and Sith in combat, never mind that "whirlwind" or words similar are very much a common way to describe a Jedi or Sith's movements in combat, and are indeed an abstract way of describing their movements.

And now all of a sudden you say they have broken the limit of their bodies' spiritual capabilities, without any presentation of evidence. Even you have said they focus on the physical aspects of the force, not the spiritual. Making a claim like that is just nonsensical.

It's seen further when you say Zeison Sha elite warriors can crush a body within seconds. Nowhere has anyone seen any proof of that, and asserting such a claim is ridiculous. There are next to no feats to their name. Without them, you cannot definitively claim the Zeison Sha are the most power light side force organisation, nor can you in the future until such feats are presented.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
And what do the logs prove when your KMC account is different from your pedia accounts, and i got this thread and the Zeison Sha thread, either way my post explaining the Jedi's physical weaknesses are on the Zeison Sha thread not this one, misconception on my part.

The logs prove no-one made the edits you claim. No-one edited the articles to remove the info you say, no-one edited all three articles, no information on their powers has been altered in the last two years. The alterations you accuse me of don't exist period, by anyone's hand.

And you made the claim about the Jedi's physical weakness, but you have not proven it, it is just a claim, and it is in fact directly contradicted by the Matukai article which even mentions the Jedi develop physical skills, just in a more separate manner than the Matukai.

Originally posted by KylarWhite
Your fanboyism for these groups is cute and all, but you provide no real evidence. On the Zeison Sha thread, Q99 has stated that he has gone through all the sources you have mentioned and more, and found nothing to support your arguments. He has further refuted any claims you have made regarding edits to Wookiepedia, as he has examined the edits made to it, and has even showed you them. It's not his fault that you ignore it. You have nothing to back up your claims. You can't just take a simple claim regarding something, and use it to make wild proclamations. Sure, some parts will allow you to infer things from the text, but you take it to such a level that it is ridiculous.

For example, you take that the Matukai were known as "combat whirlwinds" (never even bothering to provide the source for the statement), and use it to claim that they are therefore faster and better than the Jedi and Sith in combat, never mind that "whirlwind" or words similar are very much a common way to describe a Jedi or Sith's movements in combat, and are indeed an abstract way of describing their movements.

And now all of a sudden you say they have broken the limit of their bodies' spiritual capabilities, without any presentation of evidence. Even you have said they focus on the physical aspects of the force, not the spiritual. Making a claim like that is just nonsensical.

It's seen further when you say Zeison Sha elite warriors can crush a body within seconds. Nowhere has anyone seen any proof of that, and asserting such a claim is ridiculous. There are next to no feats to their name. Without them, you cannot definitively claim the Zeison Sha are the most power light side force organisation, nor can you in the future until such feats are presented.

And yes they have exceeded in physical Strength & Power going past what their bodies were capable of originally, go to wookieepedia and read their abilities thats "proof" enough.

Yeah Q99 ran through all the sources and didn't find the direct statement he was looking for which was, (The Zeison Sha are The Most Powerful Order of Light Side Force Sensitives) No Star Wars source is or will ever say that literally but rather metaphorically, i don't know why all of you haven't learned this yet. But conserning everything else of the Zeison Sha's Telekinetic abilities, thats been proven already. The Zeison Sha's unmatched telekinetic skills & Survival skills have proven them the most Powerful Light Side Order. (METAPHORICALLY)

And as for the edits made on wookieepedia, lets clear this up. I never said that Q99 edited a major part of the Zeison Sha article, but rather just 2 words, the words (Telekinetic abilities) were changed to (Telekinesis) for a short time and later the changes were removed, but the fact is that the change did not occur untill i came on this site, SOMEONE here on this site that disagreed edited that article, and Q99 is listed as a suspect due to his questionable ideals & contradictions.

Its getting boring going back-and-forth with people that didn't know about both the Matukai & Zeison Sha, you guys already have the evidence conserning both of the orders abilities but choose not to believe it, but rather you all say you want evidence even though thats already been revealed 😆.

Originally posted by Q99
The logs prove no-one made the edits you claim. No-one edited the articles to remove the info you say, no-one edited all three articles, no information on their powers has been altered in the last two years. The alterations you accuse me of don't exist period, by anyone's hand.

And you made the claim about the Jedi's physical weakness, but you have not proven it, it is just a claim, and it is in fact directly contradicted by the Matukai article which even mentions the Jedi develop physical skills, just in a more separate manner than the Matukai.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You say i don't provide real evidence? foolish statement. The Jedi have NEVER been known as combat whirlwinds & typhoons, all of the greatest notable jedi that have been seen does not fit the description of a whirlwind, that would include, Revan, NomiSunrider, ArcaJeth, SateleShan, MeetraSurik, General Hoth, and Yoda. None of them reached a speed that indentified them as a minature tornado, (whirlwind) only the Matukai adepts reached that speed & strength provided they amazed onlookers with that same speed during their exhibitions.

The Jedi of the tier you described are most commonly referred to as blurs, if they were even visible.

Yeah Q99 ran through all the sources and didn't find the direct statement he was looking for which was, (The Zeison Sha are The Most Powerful Order of Light Side Force Sensitives) No Star Wars source is or will ever say that literally but rather metaphorically, i don't know why all of you haven't learned this yet. But conserning everything else of the Zeison Sha's Telekinetic abilities, thats been proven already. The Zeison Sha's unmatched telekinetic skills & Survival skills have proven them the most Powerful Light Side Order. (METAPHORICALLY)

I wasn't looking for that statement, actually. I was looking for your specific claims, which were lacking and not supported in the text.

The idea that the Zeison Sha took no casualties during the Imperial occupation, for example. Or that the Zeison Sha are even implied to be the strongest. Or that their telekinesis makes them immune to most attacks. Or that their force barrier is different from the Jedi force barrier power.

They aren't there.

You made them up.

You have been caught in making them up.

And as for the edits made on wookieepedia, lets clear this up. I never said that Q99 edited a major part of the Zeison Sha article, but rather just 2 words, the words (Telekinetic abilities) were changed to (Telekinesis) for a short time and later the changes were removed, but the fact is that the change did not occur untill i came on this site, SOMEONE here on this site that disagreed edited that article, and Q99 is listed as a suspect due to his questionable ideals & contradictions.

Way to back peddle. And no they weren't. The edit logs would indicate such a change, and they don't.

There were no edits involving the word telekinesis in the last 2 years.

You are lying and have been caught in your lies. No-one has to do any edits to disagree with you, because the article never agreed with you, and you're accusing others of lying to try and cover your butt, and it's very dishonest of you.

Also, just a reminder, I have the original book which the article is drawing the information from, and posted direct quotes from it. The book can't be edited.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You still don't get it Q99. A lightsaber is not a measure of physical Strength since its a weapon that cuts through most known alloys, blast doors, armor, surfaces, and people with minimum effort. But rather the Lightsaber relies mainly on PRECISION & EXECUTION, while the Matukai's Wan-Shan relies on Physical Strength & Maneuverability. The Jedi order have weaken on the physical side ever since they stopped using traditional swords back during the time they were known as the Je,daii order.

Except I'm not just talking lightsaber.

I'm talking hand to hand feats, which I've specifically pointed out, such as Mace Windu demolishing metal droids with punches and Luminara beating a Wampa with her bare hands. I'm talking superhuman jumps and speed and enhanced strength (which, btw, lightsaber vs lightsaber combat *does* use, when two fighters lock blades they often use strength against each other, and who the physically stronger fighter is matters). I'm talking about the Matukai article specifically noting Jedi do physical training.

You don't get it, the sources do not agree with your interpretation.

Originally posted by Pwned
That's because you can see a, "whirlwind" or a, "typhoon"

The Jedi of the tier you described are most commonly referred to as blurs, if they were even visible.

Originally posted by Q99
I wasn't looking for that statement, actually. I was looking for your specific claims, which were lacking and not supported in the text.

The idea that the Zeison Sha took no casualties during the Imperial occupation, for example. Or that the Zeison Sha are even implied to be the strongest. Or that their telekinesis makes them immune to most attacks. Or that their force barrier is different from the Jedi force barrier power.

They aren't there.

You made them up.

You have been caught in making them up.

Way to back peddle. And no they weren't. The edit logs would indicate such a change, and they don't.

There were no edits involving the word telekinesis in the last 2 years.

You are lying and have been caught in your lies. No-one has to do any edits to disagree with you, because the article never agreed with you, and you're accusing others of lying to try and cover your butt, and it's very dishonest of you.

Also, just a reminder, I have the original book which the article is drawing the information from, and posted direct quotes from it. The book can't be edited.

Except I'm not just talking lightsaber.

I'm talking hand to hand feats, which I've specifically pointed out, such as Mace Windu demolishing metal droids with punches and Luminara beating a Wampa with her bare hands. I'm talking superhuman jumps and speed and enhanced strength (which, btw, lightsaber vs lightsaber combat *does* use, when two fighters lock blades they often use strength against each other, and who the physically stronger fighter is matters). I'm talking about the Matukai article specifically noting Jedi do physical training.

You don't get it, the sources do not agree with your interpretation.

(The Jedi's force barriers have been seen as a jedi halting his offense to manage the barrier, defending against a certin amount of attacks before the barrier breaks due to energy depletion)

(The Zeison Sha's telekinetic shields have been described as using the force to wrap around one's body) and when the force completely wraps around one's body that means that the shield surrounds the entire outer surface of the body, not leaving any openings in defense to exploit, which is why Bodo Baas said the Zeison Sha leaned in for attack more then defense.

(There is no point leaning in for defense as much as offense in a Zeison Sha's case since their defense is wrapped around them for when they enter combat)

Its a fact that the Zeison Sha never suffered any casualties during the great jedi perge, their Telekinetic shields & Survival skills are proof of that. If the Zeison Sha suffered as much damage as the Jedi & Matukai orders during the perge like you think, then they wouldn't be known for their survival skills, but rather no different from the jedi order since the jedi lose 70% of their order at minimum, and 90% of their order at maximum 80% of the times after their wars are over. The Zeison Sha are known for their Survival skills & unmatched telekinetic prowess, which is why they endured the force orders perge and the jedi didn't.

No one has been caught in any lies but rather you want me to due to the fact that i revealed your hypocrisy in 5 messages previously posted, and the fact that the jedi order you are such a fanatic of are not the most powerful in all areas, but rather most balanced. It dosen't matter what you posted conserning the edits made on wookieepedia, (edit logs can be tampered with) the edit didn't occur untill i came on this site, thats a fact you cannot change.

And yes Jedi masters can destroy battle droids with their hands, but not due to their physical strength, but the fact that they use the force as a weapon (imbued fist) and as a blade (imbued lightsabers). The Matukai have used the force to harden & augment their bodies to unnatural limits exceeding what their bodies were capable of in Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and power originally.

Still don't get it yet 🙂?

No one gets you. Your lawJick is far too l33t and superior for we peons to understand.

(The Jedi's force barriers have been seen as a jedi halting his offense to manage the barrier, defending against a certin amount of attacks before the barrier breaks due to energy depletion)

(The Zeison Sha's telekinetic shields have been described as using the force to wrap around one's body) and when the force completely wraps around one's body that means that the shield surrounds the entire outer surface of the body, not leaving any openings in defense to exploit, which is why Bodo Baas said the Zeison Sha leaned in for attack more then defense.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Self willingly ignorant.

Again, looking at the actual sources.

You're going against the material.

There is proof that the Zeison Sha's telekinetic shields are different from the Jedi's force barriers.

(The Jedi's force barriers have been seen as a jedi halting his offense to manage the barrier, defending against a certin amount of attacks before the barrier breaks due to energy depletion)

(The Zeison Sha's telekinetic shields have been described as using the force to wrap around one's body) and when the force completely wraps around one's body that means that the shield surrounds the entire outer surface of the body, not leaving any openings in defense to exploit, which is why Bodo Baas said the Zeison Sha leaned in for attack more then defense.

Nope, nothing ever says that the Zeison Sha's force barrier cannot be depleted or takes any less effort. It says it wraps but that's it.

And guess what? Other force barriers wrap around the user completely too, and Jedi have attacked while using them, so that part isn't a unique attribute.

So you made stuff up. Making up lies about attributes to abilities that no sources mention is not proof.

Its a fact that the Zeison Sha never suffered any casualties during the great jedi perge,

Nope, zero things say that. Fiction. Made-up. Lies.

If the Zeison Sha suffered as much damage as the Jedi & Matukai orders during the perge like you think,

No, of course they didn't suffer as much.

They were on one little planet and didn't get the big Jedi-Hunters sent after them. It's also known they feared facing the Jedi hunters.

They however also didn't repel the imperial garrison, and it is specifically said they endured the presence, meaning it was a hardship to them.

Once again, your words are contradicted by the material.

The Zeison Sha are known for their Survival skills & unmatched telekinetic prowess, which is why they endured the force orders perge and the jedi didn't.

Endured. Nothing says 'without casualties'. And way to ignore the main reason they endured.

No one has been caught in any lies but rather you want me to due to the fact that i revealed your hypocrisy in 5 messages previously posted,

Except your words don't fit the sources and mine do.

and the fact that the jedi order you are such a fanatic of are not the most powerful in all areas, but rather most balanced.

The reason you claim that the ZS were stronger was that the Jedi were lacking physically... and they aren't, it was something you made up despite being directly contradicted by the sources.

Heck, I never said the Jedi were strongest (that'd be The Ones). I just said there's no evidence the ZS are stronger. And there isn't.

It dosen't matter what you posted conserning the edits made on wookieepedia, (edit logs can be tampered with) the edit didn't occur untill i came on this site, thats a fact you cannot change.

You're just dishonestly trying to accuse others to cover your lies. I didn't edit it, you know I didn't edit it, and you know it never said anything about the ZS taking no casualties on the imperial occupation or their barrier being an unbreachable defense or any of the other stuff you claim to make them clearly superior.

Heck, even the edits you claim to have happened do not prove your points, there was never a version that said no casualties or your claims about the force barrier.

And again, I have the physical books. They're uneditable.

Wookiepedia's article is based on the books. Even if the article was changed, the books would still say whether your claims were present, and they aren't, you're lying.

And yes Jedi masters can destroy battle droids with their hands, but not due to their physical strength, but the fact that they use the force as a weapon (imbued fist) and as a blade (imbued lightsabers).

Luminara specifically threw a large Wampa without using the force using her bare hands.

And the Matukai specifically use the force in their physical training, so I'm not entirely sure why you think Jedi using force physical powers is different either.

The Matukai have used the force to harden & augment their bodies to unnatural limits exceeding what their bodies were capable of in Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and power originally.

So in other words, what you accuse the Jedi of doing, using the force to enhance the limits of their bodies.

Also, the Matukai article specifically notes Jedi incorporate physical training.

Also, the ZS notably use physical strength less than Jedi. They use thrown weapons and TK, that's all.

Still don't get it yet 🙂?

I get what you're saying, I simply don't agree with it as there's multiple statements and feats that directly contradict your version of events and how you claim powers work.

You have your own version of how these force abilities work, why Jedi physical training doesn't 'count' but Matukai does even though the Matukai article calls them both physical training, why the ZS force barrier is supposed to be superior despite nothing saying it is, and so on, and you need to understand it is simply your interpretation, not proof.

These threads in a nutshell:

SWL- "The ZS and Matukai are the most powerful!"

Us- "Why?"

SWL- "Because they can do W and X!"

Us- "Ok, but Jedi can do W and X too."

SWL- "But their W and X means they can do Y and Z!"

Us- "We can find nothing that says they have those additional attributes and Jedi don't. Why do you say so?"

SWL- "Because (slight difference in description)."

Us- "Slight difference in description does not mention Y and Z at all."

SWL- "But (edits I can't prove exist) happened which changed (slight difference of description) to (different slight difference of description)!"

Us- "There's no evidence of that in the original sources, and that still doesn't say they can do X and Z anyway."

SWL- "You're just biased, and (unfounded accusations)! Also, the Jedi are also inferior at A."

Us- "Nothing says that."

SWL- "They can't do B!"

Us- "Here's them doing B."

SWL- "It's different than when (groups) do it, because of (slight difference in description)."

Us- "Slight difference in description doesn't describe that at all, and (reference from the book) actually says it's the same thing trained differently."

SWL- "You're biased! Also, (group) did M and N."

Us- " (Checks sources) Absolutely nothing says they did M and N."

SWL- "Biased! And they totally did, (description which means other things but not M and N) says this."

Us-"Description doesn't say so."

SWL- "Biased, and accusations of lies to cover own calls of bias!"

----

Also, let me point out something major that's never been pointed out in these threads before: Both the Zeison Sha and Matukai come from game books, as playable classes with listed abilities.

And neither are more powerful than Jedi or Sith classes, nor are their specializations something that cannot be duplicated with other Jedi or Sith classes. They can simply do those things easier because they're aimed that way, but they are not stronger than Jedi or Sith in game either.

Originally posted by Q99
Again, looking at the actual sources.

You're going against the material.

Nope, nothing ever says that the Zeison Sha's force barrier cannot be depleted or takes any less effort. It says it wraps but that's it.

And guess what? Other force barriers wrap around the user completely too, and Jedi have attacked while using them, so that part isn't a unique attribute.

So you made stuff up. Making up lies about attributes to abilities that no sources mention is not proof.

Nope, zero things say that. Fiction. Made-up. Lies.

No, of course they didn't suffer as much.

They were on one little planet and didn't get the big Jedi-Hunters sent after them. It's also known they feared facing the Jedi hunters.

They however also didn't repel the imperial garrison, and it is specifically said they endured the presence, meaning it was a hardship to them.

Once again, your words are contradicted by the material.

Endured. Nothing says 'without casualties'. And way to ignore the main reason they endured.

Except your words don't fit the sources and mine do.

The reason you claim that the ZS were stronger was that the Jedi were lacking physically... and they aren't, it was something you made up despite being directly contradicted by the sources.

Heck, I never said the Jedi were strongest (that'd be The Ones). I just said there's no evidence the ZS are stronger. And there isn't.

You're just dishonestly trying to accuse others to cover your lies. I didn't edit it, you know I didn't edit it, and you know it never said anything about the ZS taking no casualties on the imperial occupation or their barrier being an unbreachable defense or any of the other stuff you claim to make them clearly superior.

Heck, even the edits you claim to have happened do not prove your points, there was never a version that said no casualties or your claims about the force barrier.

And again, [b]I have the physical books. They're uneditable.

Wookiepedia's article is based on the books. Even if the article was changed, the books would still say whether your claims were present, and they aren't, you're lying.

Luminara specifically threw a large Wampa without using the force using her bare hands.

And the Matukai specifically use the force in their physical training, so I'm not entirely sure why you think Jedi using force physical powers is different either.

So in other words, what you accuse the Jedi of doing, using the force to enhance the limits of their bodies.

Also, the Matukai article specifically notes Jedi incorporate physical training.

Also, the ZS notably use physical strength less than Jedi. They use thrown weapons and TK, that's all.

I get what you're saying, I simply don't agree with it as there's multiple statements and feats that directly contradict your version of events and how you claim powers work.

You have your own version of how these force abilities work, why Jedi physical training doesn't 'count' but Matukai does even though the Matukai article calls them both physical training, why the ZS force barrier is supposed to be superior despite nothing saying it is, and so on, and you need to understand it is simply your interpretation, not proof. [/B]

Provided that it was also said that the Zeison Sha SURVIVED the empire's ATTEMPTS to stamp them out.

(In other words they survived the empire's attempts on their lives. The empire attempted to kill off members of the Zeison Sha and failed, due to their Survival skills and unmatched Telekinetic prowess)

And here's another thing, if you want to rant on your opinion about the Zeison Sha are not more powerful then the Jedi order, then go to (The Most Powerful Order Of Light Side Force Sensitives thread) not this thread conserning the subject of the Matukai order. Rant on your biased contradicting opinions twords the Matukai, not the Zeison Sha.

And here's what will end your arguement. (Q99 has said that the Jedi are a more powerful order in comparison to the Matukai in terms of physical Strength, Speed, Constitution) well if you believe that to be true, then here's what destroys that belief.

The Greatest and most powerful of jedi have been known as blurs in terms of speed, and brutes in terms of strength. The Matukai adepts at regular have been known as miniature tornados (whirlwinds) in terms of Speed, and in terms of physical strength, with or without their weapons.

A Jedi blur vs a Matukai minature tornado, who would win? a Matukai minature tornado will win, since the physical attirbutes of a Matukai whirlwind are superior in comparison to a Jedi blur.

It really dosen't matter if you have the physical books. Wookieepedia counts as the biggest virtual Data collection conserning the Star Wars universe, using the Refferences, Notes, and Sources to support the information.

And here's where you're wrong once again. It was specifically said that the Zeison Sha did NOT take kindly to the empire invading their planet and were actively resisting the imperial occupation.

Yes, it says they resisted. It says they endured.

Nothing says they took no casualties. Nor did they manage to kick the Empire off their planet, nor face the Emperor's stronger Jedi hunters, which they actively avoided, so it's not like they took on the best opponents either.

Provided that it was also said that the Zeison Sha SURVIVED the empire's ATTEMPTS to stamp them out.

Yes, the order survived, meaning they didn't take enough casualties to wipe them out. Nothing says there were no casualties involved, they simply endured whatever casualties they did take.

The Jedi survived Revan's purge, even though they were reduced from thousands and thousands to hundreds. The Sith survived the Battle of Ruusan, even though they were literally reduced to a single living member. Saying the order survived says squat about their casualty count. Did they take a few casualties? Half casualties? Light? Heavy? We don't know, but we did know it was a matter of 'enduring'.

No mention of no casualties.

This is another example of:

SWL- "You're biased! Also, (group) did M and N."

Us- " (Checks sources) Absolutely nothing says they did M and N."

SWL- "Biased! And they totally did, (description which means other things but not M and N) says this."

Us-"Description doesn't say so."

That I mentioned in my 'this thread in a nutshell' post.

The Greatest and most powerful of jedi have been known as blurs in terms of speed, and brutes in terms of strength. The Matukai adepts at regular have been known as miniature tornados (whirlwinds) in terms of Speed, and in terms of physical strength, with or without their weapons.

A Jedi blur vs a Matukai minature tornado, who would win? a Matukai minature tornado will win, since the physical attirbutes of a Matukai whirlwind are superior in comparison to a Jedi blur.

People have mentioned Jedi and Sith being described as whirlwinds before.

Also, 'whirlwind' and 'blur' is all non-specific terminology. Nothing says whirlwinds are faster.

Want to know the minimum speed needed to classify as a whirlwind tornado? Like, the weather phenomena?

40 miles per hour. 40. A spinning, officially-a-tornado can be that slow.

Even a tornado a category higher, an F-1 tornado, is a mere 73mph.

In comparison, a race car can move like a blur at 200mph+. Heck, a jet plane can move at a blur at mach speeds. Blur is not an upper limit.

You in your head decided whirlwind > blur, but neither actually gives any precise number about speed. It's purely something you decided.

This is just another example of:
WL- "Because they can do W and X!"

Us- "Ok, but Jedi can do W and X too."

SWL- "But their W and X means they can do Y and Z!"

Us- "We can find nothing that says they have those additional attributes and Jedi don't. Why do you say so?"

SWL- "Because (slight difference in description)."

Us- "Slight difference in description does not mention Y and Z at all."
-------

And, again, Jedi have been described as whirlwinds before.

Here's a source- "Rising Whirlwind: A duelist swings his lightsabers about his body, creating a brilliant whirlwind". A named Niman/Jar'Kai maneuver (at the bottom of the maneuvers section, right before Training Methods). It's something they do.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, it says they resisted. It says they endured.

Nothing says they took no casualties. Nor did they manage to kick the Empire off their planet, nor face the Emperor's stronger Jedi hunters, which they actively avoided, so it's not like they took on the best opponents either.

Yes, the order survived, meaning they didn't take enough casualties to wipe them out. Nothing says there were no casualties involved, they simply endured whatever casualties they did take.

The Jedi survived Revan's purge, even though they were reduced from thousands and thousands to hundreds. The Sith survived the Battle of Ruusan, even though they were literally reduced to a single living member. Saying the order survived says squat about their casualty count. Did they take a few casualties? Half casualties? Light? Heavy? We don't know, but we did know it was a matter of 'enduring'.

No mention of no casualties.

This is another example of:

SWL- "You're biased! Also, (group) did M and N."

Us- " (Checks sources) Absolutely nothing says they did M and N."

SWL- "Biased! And they totally did, (description which means other things but not M and N) says this."

Us-"Description doesn't say so."

That I mentioned in my 'this thread in a nutshell' post.

People have mentioned Jedi and Sith being described as whirlwinds before.

Also, 'whirlwind' and 'blur' is all non-specific terminology. Nothing says whirlwinds are faster.

Want to know the minimum speed needed to classify as a whirlwind tornado? Like, the weather phenomena?

40 miles per hour. 40. A spinning, officially-a-tornado can be that slow.

Even a tornado a category higher, an F-1 tornado, is a mere 73mph.

In comparison, a race car can move like a blur at 200mph+. Heck, a jet plane can move at a blur at mach speeds. Blur is not an upper limit.

You in your head decided whirlwind > blur, but neither actually gives any precise number about speed. It's purely something you decided.

This is just another example of:
WL- "Because they can do W and X!"

Us- "Ok, but Jedi can do W and X too."

SWL- "But their W and X means they can do Y and Z!"

Us- "We can find nothing that says they have those additional attributes and Jedi don't. Why do you say so?"

SWL- "Because (slight difference in description)."

Us- "Slight difference in description does not mention Y and Z at all."
-------

And, again, Jedi have been described as whirlwinds before.

Here's a source- "[b]Rising Whirlwind: A duelist swings his lightsabers about his body, creating a brilliant whirlwind". A named Niman/Jar'Kai maneuver (at the bottom of the maneuvers section, right before Training Methods). It's something they do. [/B]

I guess this long message just translates you don't agree, simple. Its good thing you finally said so in one of your previous messages.

That source didn't prove what you said but rather a waste of time. the Matukai have been known as whirlwinds of combat, with or without their weapons. And one of the only matukai of legendary calibur was Mendor Typhoons, Mendor Typhoons was the only known Matukai Master Adept that was known to be a combat typhoon. The Jedi order long lost the battle of a physical abilities comparison against the Matukai.

Just accept that the Jedi aren't the strongest order like you think, i could mention several orders that are more powerful then the Jedi.

The Real big difference between the Jedi, Matukai, and Zeison Sha is not only their abilities, but the fact that the Matukai & Zeison Sha aren't iconic just yet, because they haven't had any stories reflected upon them, like the jedi and other orders. Once their stories are revealed in the form of either Books or Films, thats when you start eating your words, its a reason why they haven't shown them completely just yet, they are saving the best for last.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
I looked at that already, it changes nothing, Typhoons beats jedi whirlwinds & blurs.

Wow, you're completely sure that one unspecific term is better than two other unspecific terms, even though in real life the official speeds of typhoons are the exact same as the speed of whirlwinds.

there's a difference between a Matukai whirlwind, and the jedi's lightsaber manevering style. Matukai are known masters of the physical body, the jedi are known to imbue their bodies with the force, not possessing a true mastery of the physical body, but rather display feats of super-human strength while their connection to the force remains.

Nope, the Matukai article specifically notes the Jedi do physical training as well, and I've also specifically noted that Luminara and other Jedi have done superhuman feats without calling on the force.

There are multiple Jedi in the Clone Wars era that are known to have specialized in unarmed combat, like Butler Swan and Luminara.

An unarmed Luminara beat up a Wampa, an alien dinosaur-like being the size of a T-rex, and killed a large battle droid, all specifically just physically, no force.

I guess this long message just translates you don't agree, simple. Its good thing you finally said so in one of your previous messages.

I've said I've disagreed for a long time.

And you can disagree too if you want- it's just you constantly say that X group can do this or Jedi can't do that, and every time when we look at the sources, nothing supports that, and often outright disagree.

It's purely your own personal views. And you're allowed to have your views! Just don't expect everyone to just agree without sources, and also expect everyone else to call you on it being wrong when you try and attack them for claiming stuff the sources disagree with.

It'd do you a lot of good to present your opinions as opinions, rather than as some official truth that everyone has to agree with even if the sources don't mention it.

That source didn't prove what you said but rather a waste of time.

Well, this rather cuts to the crux of the issue. You don't care what the sources say in many cases.

If the Jedi have force barriers that do everything the ZS's are said to do, and if the Jedi have done blatantly superhuman physical acts just like the Matukai do, you don't care, you just ignore it.

Your head-Jedi do less than the sources say the actual Jedi do.

Just accept that the Jedi aren't the strongest order like you think, i could mention several orders that are more powerful then the Jedi.

The Ones are the strongest Order, not the Jedi. They have the feats to back it up.

However, you keep on asserting these orders are stronger- even though they've done less, and based on the idea that the Jedi can't do what they do, even when the Jedi actually do so. You do need to get used to the fact that just because you like them and they have some cool tricks, that doesn't mean they're more powerful.

Heck, you do realize both Matukai and Zeison Sha came from the RPG, right? And that means they have statistics that show their abilities all the way up to Master level if one wants to play them?

And these stats do not place them as more powerful than the Jedi, only more specialized.

The Real big difference between the Jedi, Matukai, and Zeison Sha is not only their abilities, but the fact that the Matukai & Zeison Sha aren't iconic just yet, because they haven't had any stories reflected upon them, like the jedi and other orders.

There's two other very large factor that you're overlooking.

One, the Jedi are bigger and lasted longer, meaning they've been able to pick up many more recruits, the best recruits, and have a bigger knowledge base.

Two, the Matukai and Zeison Sha are specialized, they only train in some area. The Jedi are generalized... meaning they train in the same areas the Matukai and Zeison Sha do too! There are Jedi that specialize in Hand to Hand, there are Jedi that specialize in telekinetics. The order as a whole are generalists, but not all individual are, and the specialists have very much not shown any weakness in these areas.

Just because one group is good at something, it doesn't actually make other orders weaker at it. It just means that many aren't going to be in that area, but those who do work in those areas can still be really good... and considering we're talking an order of 10,000 vs an order of 60~ (Matukai), well, they're going to have more sparring partners to sharpen themselves on, even out of just the minority that work in those specific areas.

Heck, Matukai were known to join the Jedi on occasion! Meaning, for all your assertion that Matukai were stronger, there'd be Jedi fully training in Matukai techniques that'd be passed on to the Jedi order.

Once their stories are revealed in the form of either Books or Films, thats when you start eating your words, its a reason why they haven't shown them completely just yet, they are saving the best for last.

Well, this is the best argument you've given so far- it is true that in the future, they could make some extraordinarily Matukai or Zeison Sha characters if they wanted to, they could make them stronger than the Jedi.

I merely point out they definitely have yet to actually do so, nor indicated that they plan to.

And conversely, they could easily do the opposite.

Ah, uh, you do know they're talking about ending the EU, right? So there's quite possibly not going to be the opportunity.

Not to mention blurs are much faster.

Oh, and you contradicted yourself again. You called the Matukai, "Whirlwinds and typhoons", with no comment on Jedi speed. I am the one who mentioned the tier you spoke of were typically, "blurs, if even visible at all"

All in all, gtfo.

The matukai are the 2 most powerful ther skin can be strong to were a lightsaber
Could not cut ther skin not to say that the matukai are called blurs or whirlwind of blads and that mendor is a typhoon and that matukai are to have neai physical perfection and that jedi are only called blurs and that only when they are using the force and they are to the point to where they can not get sick and the matukai adept are inmmune to kouhon posin not even the so called great jedi order can't even survive