Matukai, The 2nd Most Powerful Lightside Force organization

Originally posted by Pwned
Not to mention blurs are much faster.

Oh, and you contradicted yourself again. You called the Matukai, "Whirlwinds and typhoons", with no comment on Jedi speed. I am the one who mentioned the tier you spoke of were typically, "blurs, if even visible at all"

All in all, gtfo.

(and i wasn't going to keep repeating the same physical abilities comparison between Jedi & Matukai, since i already revealed that)

If you wanna say what i really contradicted myself on, i contradicted myself conserning the Jedi being the most powerful spiritually, when that turned out to be false. "taking back what i originally said" The Aing Tii are the most powerful force users spiritually. You were right and also wrong at the same time.

Not to mention that Matukai were already known as blurs when running, but they were also known as whirlwind blurs when fighting, and when doing complex martial sequences.

Originally posted by Q99
Wow, you're completely sure that one unspecific term is better than two other unspecific terms, even though in real life the official speeds of typhoons are the exact same as the speed of whirlwinds.

Nope, the Matukai article specifically notes the Jedi do physical training as well, and I've also specifically noted that Luminara and other Jedi have done superhuman feats without calling on the force.

There are multiple Jedi in the Clone Wars era that are known to have specialized in unarmed combat, like Butler Swan and Luminara.

An unarmed Luminara beat up a Wampa, an alien dinosaur-like being the size of a T-rex, and killed a large battle droid, all specifically just physically, no force.

I've said I've disagreed for a long time.

And you can disagree too if you want- it's just you constantly say that X group can do this or Jedi can't do that, and every time when we look at the sources, nothing supports that, and often outright disagree.

It's purely your own personal views. And you're allowed to have your views! Just don't expect everyone to just agree without sources, and also expect everyone else to call you on it being wrong when you try and attack them for claiming stuff the sources disagree with.

It'd do you a lot of good to present your opinions as opinions, rather than as some official truth that everyone has to agree with even if the sources don't mention it.

Well, this rather cuts to the crux of the issue. You don't care what the sources say in many cases.

If the Jedi have force barriers that do everything the ZS's are said to do, and if the Jedi have done blatantly superhuman physical acts just like the Matukai do, you don't care, you just ignore it.

Your head-Jedi do less than the sources say the actual Jedi do.

The Ones are the strongest Order, not the Jedi. They have the feats to back it up.

However, you keep on asserting these orders are stronger- even though they've done less, and based on the idea that the Jedi can't do what they do, even when the Jedi actually do so. You do need to get used to the fact that just because you like them and they have some cool tricks, that doesn't mean they're more powerful.

Heck, you do realize both Matukai and Zeison Sha came from the RPG, right? And that means they have statistics that show their abilities all the way up to Master level if one wants to play them?

And these stats do not place them as more powerful than the Jedi, only more specialized.

There's two other very large factor that you're overlooking.

One, the Jedi are bigger and lasted longer, meaning they've been able to pick up many more recruits, the best recruits, and have a bigger knowledge base.

Two, the Matukai and Zeison Sha are specialized, they only train in some area. The Jedi are generalized... meaning they train in the same areas the Matukai and Zeison Sha do too! There are Jedi that specialize in Hand to Hand, there are Jedi that specialize in telekinetics. The order as a whole are generalists, but not all individual are, and the specialists have very much not shown any weakness in these areas.

Just because one group is good at something, it doesn't actually make other orders weaker at it. It just means that many aren't going to be in that area, but those who do work in those areas can still be really good... and considering we're talking an order of 10,000 vs an order of 60~ (Matukai), well, they're going to have more sparring partners to sharpen themselves on, even out of just the minority that work in those specific areas.

Heck, Matukai were known to join the Jedi on occasion! Meaning, for all your assertion that Matukai were stronger, there'd be Jedi fully training in Matukai techniques that'd be passed on to the Jedi order.

Well, this is the best argument you've given so far- it is true that in the future, they could make some extraordinarily Matukai or Zeison Sha characters if they wanted to, they could make them stronger than the Jedi.

I merely point out they definitely have yet to actually do so, nor indicated that they plan to.

And conversely, they could easily do the opposite.

Ah, uh, you do know they're talking about ending the EU, right? So there's quite possibly not going to be the opportunity.

In Other words, Luminara unduli's and Mace windu's physical feats were primarily due to the Force.

2nd is you contradicted yourself for the 7th time, why? because you had said yourself previously that, the Jedi do NOT specialize nor have weaknesses in all areas but rather in the middle. (MostBalanced) But now you're saying that the Jedi order specializes in all areas, which GOES AGAINST what you previously said to KylarWhite. The Jedi being the most balanced but not the most powerful, which is what i was saying the whole time.

I cannot take you seriously anymore, you add & delete way too much. Like before when you tried to say that the Zeison Sha only survived by cowtowing to the empire. (endured) when it was already said that they did not take kindly to the imperial invasion, and were actively resisting the empire's occupation. you already knew well in clear the difference between the word (Resist) which means Fight Back, and the word (Endure) which means bear it. And you tried to make it appear as if the Zeison Sha beared and let the empire enslave their order, that would have been a contradiction to themselfs and contradicting their Philosophy.

The Zeison Sha are not specialist at what they do, but rather the most powerful at what they do. (Telekinesis & Telekinetic force powers) since they are able to pull down ships and lift the most heavy of objects with minimum effort.

Im done with you. Rant on your opinions about the Zeison Sha on the thread that was ment for that subject, not this one, i already told you this before and will not tell you again.

Hey, good news! I have just received word that Star Wars: Hero's Guide has shipped from Amazon. Or in other words, the book with the Matukai in it, including a full list of their powers.

Here's some things that destroys what you have stated about the jedi's "natural" physical dominance.

Not dominant, just not weak. Jedi, being a generalist organization, will have people specialized and strong in a variety of areas.

Number 1, the Jedi tought the practition of Force-imbued gymnastics and speed, using the force as an extension to one's body. Rather then channel the body's natural Strength. (Such as what the Matukai are most powerful at)

Again, they use similar methods, Jedi do channel their natural strength. You're creating an artificial divide that isn't there, and I have provided examples of Jedi using the methods you say they don't use.

In Other words, Luminara unduli's and Mace windu's physical feats were primarily due to the Force.

Nope, Luminara's feat was specifically, out-loud said to be purely a matter of physics and not the force, she did them while banned from using the force. Yes, she was literally banned from using the force while she defeated a Wampa in hand to hand.

Also, the Matukai physical ability and force training are specifically said to be interlinked- their physical abilities use the force.

Their physical abilities are indeed said to be very interlinked with the force, and they did not view physical ability and the force as separate.

The Zeison Sha are not specialist at what they do, but rather the most powerful at what they do. (Telekinesis & Telekinetic force powers) since they are able to pull down ships and lift the most heavy of objects with minimum effort.

Which some Jedi can do too (and no Zeison Sha has actually ever pulled down ships technically speaking, and nothing says TK takes less effort for them).

Also, the Zeison Sha were specialist, they did little training in foresight or mind-powers. That's why they have a very high TK power normally, they put more training into it than most Jedi.

I cannot take you seriously anymore, you add & delete way too much.

I have added and deleted nothing, and presented evidence I have not done so. Furthermore, many of the things I have posted are from the physically-uneditable solid books. You have lied repeatedly. Dishonesty and false accusations undercuts you.

Do not pretend I said something I didn't just because what I said doesn't suit your argument. It's a very scummy thing to do.

Like before when you tried to say that the Zeison Sha only survived by cowtowing to the empire. (endured) when it was already said that they did not take kindly to the imperial invasion, and were actively resisting the empire's occupation.

I never said cowtowing or anything of the sort, stop lying to cover your mistakes or to pretend me as saying something I'm not.

I said they resisted, but their resistance did not kick the garrison off their planet, and the word 'endured' was even used. Meaning they resisted militarily, their resistance was not the casual casualty-free affair you present it as.

They fought, they likely protected their holdings and the people of the planet very well, it was an ongoing conflict that they endured. That is what the sources say.

---

The reason I mention the other order in this thread is because it's all the same argument, whichever organization you're talking about, with you just going around with the same arguments:

SWL- "The ZS and Matukai are the most powerful!"

Us- "Why?"

SWL- "Because they can do W and X!"

Us- "Ok, but Jedi can do W and X too."

SWL- "But their W and X means they can do Y and Z!"

Us- "We can find nothing that says they have those additional attributes and Jedi don't. Why do you say so?"

SWL- "Because (slight difference in description)."

Us- "Slight difference in description does not mention Y and Z at all."

SWL- "Also, the Jedi are also inferior at A."

Us- "Nothing says that."

SWL- "They can't do B!"

Us- "Here's them doing B."

Whatever the specifics, it's the same thing, going around and around.

It's not about the facts with you since you don't use the sources anyway, it's about you not accepting what you want to be true is merely that, a want, and that we're never going to accept whatever artificial weakness or unmentioned ability just because you repeat it a lot, because the facts are all about the sources which simply do not back you up.

Originally posted by Q99
Hey, good news! I have just received word that Star Wars: Hero's Guide has shipped from Amazon. Or in other words, the book with the Matukai in it, including a full list of their powers.

Not dominant, just not weak. Jedi, being a generalist organization, will have people specialized and strong in a variety of areas.

Again, they use similar methods, Jedi do channel their natural strength. You're creating an artificial divide that isn't there, and I have provided examples of Jedi using the methods you say they don't use.

Nope, Luminara's feat was specifically, out-loud said to be purely a matter of physics and not the force, she did them while banned from using the force. Yes, she was literally banned from using the force while she defeated a Wampa in hand to hand.

Also, the Matukai physical ability and force training are specifically said to be interlinked- their physical abilities use the force.

Their physical abilities are indeed said to be very interlinked with the force, and they did not view physical ability and the force as separate.

Which some Jedi can do too (and no Zeison Sha has actually ever pulled down ships technically speaking, and nothing says TK takes less effort for them).

Also, the Zeison Sha were specialist, they did little training in foresight or mind-powers. That's why they have a very high TK power normally, they put more training into it than most Jedi.

I have added and deleted nothing, and presented evidence I have not done so. Furthermore, many of the things I have posted are from the physically-uneditable solid books. You have lied repeatedly. Dishonesty and false accusations undercuts you.

Do not pretend I said something I didn't just because what I said doesn't suit your argument. It's a very scummy thing to do.

I never said cowtowing or anything of the sort, stop lying to cover your mistakes or to pretend me as saying something I'm not.

I said they resisted, but their resistance did not kick the garrison off their planet, and the word 'endured' was even used. Meaning they resisted militarily, their resistance was not the casual casualty-free affair you present it as.

They fought, they likely protected their holdings and the people of the planet very well, it was an ongoing conflict that they endured. That is what the sources say.

Jedi don't channel their natural strength in any aspect of abilities. The jedi were already quoted to use force-imbued gymnastics and speed to get the results that they wanted physically, which is why the Gray Paladins disagreed with their training methods and broke their bonds with the Jedi order. The Gray Paladins preffered not to rely on the force to achieve their goals in capabilities, such as what the jedi order been doing ever since they split from their original order.

And now you're going against what you said again!? you just got finished saying the Zeison Sha are just specialist at what they do, and since they are "just" specialist they can do it easier, and now you're saying it takes just as much effort for a Zeison Sha to pull down ships as it is for a jedi? pathetic.

and now you're saying you haven't added and deleted, while calling me scummy at that? remember when you kept saying that the Zeison Sha only survived due to the empire establishing imperial persecution on their force order, or your words they only survived because the empire put the Zeison Sha into a life of hardship? you said something very similar if not exact to what i just exemplified you stating. (In other words you said the Zeison Sha survived due to them cowtowing to imperial Control being put into a life of hardship) And now you're trying to say that you, have been stating that they have resisted this whole time instead of enduring 😆?

And to correct your problem conserning the Matukai. The Matukai weren't just a order of 60, their tradition was founded by human female before 4,000 BBY and she started the tradition of 60 Matukai members every generation, and since then the tradition hasn't been broken, there have been more then just 60 members overall in their order, even though thats small in comparison to the numberous jedi that suffer near annihilation 80% of the times after their wars are over.

And you saying that the Matukai were known to join the jedi on occasions? thats false. Because during the time of the great jedi perge where Matukai order were split into groups of 5, the Empire sent their assassination inquisitors after the Matukai order, most of the Matukai apprentices were killed, and all the Matukai adepts died ensuring their apprentice's safety, ultimately being killed by the Sith inquisitors. Leaving only 10 Matukai apprentices left to carry on the Matukai tradition, and some of those 10 joined Luke Skywalker's jedi praxeum. The Matukai often rejected the Jedi offers of unification, Mendor Typhoons is one example of that.

Anything else you want to add or delete 🙂?

And here's your downfall. The Star Wars roleplaying game hero's guide was where the Zeison Sha and Matukai were first MENTIONED, they never made canon appearences that were archived to tell.

One, the RPGs are canon, a lot of info on various groups and figures come from them. Two, that's where almost all of the background info comes from, except for the info in Jedi vs Sith the Complete Guide to the Force.

Three, I have it, and I now have the info! Which, by the way, was the only book that had them in it that I didn't have. Meaning I have all the canon info on Matukai and Zeison Sha, and can speak on them authoratively, because there is literally no sources that are beyond my knowledge.

And I'm surprised you were actually half right about some things.

Like, for example, the Zeison Sha do have a special force barrier ability separate from the normal force barrier. It's called force bubble, and it's lower level and weaker than the full Force Barrier feat.

Basically what it means is generally only high-level Jedi can make force barriers, and they're as good as Zeison Sha barriers, but low-level Zeison Sha can put up bubbles. The bubbles are pretty fragile and won't last long under fire, though, and they take a fair amount of vitality to use, meaning they also can't keep them up too long without tiring (pretty much the opposite of what you said).

And I say 'generally' because.... well, Jedi can learn force bubble too, it's not unique to the Zeison Sha, just common to them. The Zeison Sha don't particularly do anything unique, they just focus more in the area.

Additionally, the Zeison Sha have the ability to do low-level TK abilities more consistently and easier. While it doesn't apply to higher level abilities like Jedi, moving objects is more at-ease for them than it is for Jedi.

And the Matukai? Well, they're good at martial arts. They can get an extra attack when using their wan-shen, so they are fairly fast, but not in a way that others can't replicate. And... they have a lower attack bonus than either the Zeison Sha or Jedi. So they're like D&D monks in that, they can make more attacks, but the attacks aren't quite as strong.

They also have some nice body-control abilities. Resistance to poison, controlling body heat, being able to resist punches better. Nothing too combat powerful, mostly they're a bit tougher to hurt in HtH and can survive better in a variety of conditions due to body control.

Honestly I was kinda disappointed on them. The Zeison Sha are a pretty nice class if you want to do a TK specialist, if you want to play a TK character there's no reason *not* to do a ZS, but the Matukai special abilities are mainly on body control, not butt-kicking.

And now you're going against what you said again!? you just got finished saying the Zeison Sha are just specialist at what they do, and since they are "just" specialist they can do it easier, and now you're saying it takes just as much effort for a Zeison Sha to pull down ships as it is for a jedi? pathetic.

Yep, because it takes a specialist/expert to do that at all, and Jedi can specialize/become expert in high level TK as well.

You're the one who decided that since they're specialized, they must be better at all levels of TK, but the book indicates their increased familiarity just makes low-level abilities easier and gives them access to some spiffy TK abilities a bit sooner than Jedi would. They don't gain any super high level abilities Jedi can't get, they just can do lower level TK like the back of their hand and learn some TK abilities a bit sooner.

That is what the book says.

Also, no Zeison Sha has actually pulled a ship from the sky, so we're just speculating that it's possible. I agree it is if one of them manages to get force potential high enough, but still, we should be clear on what's shown and what's just speculation.

And you saying that the Matukai were known to join the jedi on occasions? thats false.

----
Leaving only 10 Matukai apprentices left to carry on the Matukai tradition, and some of those 10 joined Luke Skywalker's jedi praxeum.

You literally.... said something was false, then provided an example of it happening.

I really don't need to add anything to that.

Jedi don't channel their natural strength in any aspect of abilities. The jedi were already quoted to use force-imbued gymnastics and speed to get the results that they wanted physically, which is why the Gray Paladins disagreed with their training methods and broke their bonds with the Jedi order.

Except I've already provided multiple examples of them doing so.

The Gray Paladins felt one should only use the force to augment existing skills, instead of relying on abilities that come strait from the force, but that does not mean the Jedi never did that too, only that they did both.

Also, the Matukai specifically used force imbued abilities akin to the Jedi. They weren't on the Gray Paladin's side of this., they were like the Jedi. The Hero's Guide specifically says the Matukai use the force "In many of the same ways the Jedi do."

It also covers their training, and how many of their exercises start on the physical, but by the end get to parts that require the force to complete. The Gray Paladins wouldn't be pleased with their training methods, actually.

There's also not one but four different unarmed martial arts in the book that Jedi use and do not require the force in the slightest.

You can say "the Jedi can't/don't do this" til you're blue in the face, but it doesn't matter when the Jedi can/have done that.

Anything else you want to add or delete ?

Why do you think false accusations does anything but make you look bad?

You know I didn't change anything, you know I didn't have to, lying about it just paints you as a dishonest debater.

I'm not one to pick sides but I'm with star wars logic but some what however i do see you'r side of the story and i agree some what also I have read the hero's guide and the zeison sha are not in the guide nor is the matukai they are not classes that is the first that they are mentioned

Originally posted by TsunamicTadpole
I'm not one to pick sides but I'm with star wars logic but some what however i do see you'r side of the story and i agree some what also I have read the hero's guide and the zeison sha are not in the guide nor is the matukai they are not classes that is the first that they are mentioned

Hey starwarslogic, nice sockpuppet! General tip, when making a sockpuppet, try changing your writing style more, don't just agree to the same arguments as your main accounts using the same phrasing. It's like a fingerprint, it makes it pretty obvious it's you.

And no, they are in the Hero's guide, with whole seconds, pictures, class features, the works. Page 143 for the Matukai and 146 for the Zeison Sha, for reference.

It's the source where wookiepedia gets the main picture of them from.

A dude I'm not a sock I'm a tadpole

N no I'm not star wars logic

O n ok I will look at the book some more

And if some one writing style some what the some that is a stupid coincidence also note I am a tadpole and note the writing style not all the some so ya :-)

Originally posted by TsunamicTadpole
O n ok I will look at the book some more

You have the book? Good, then I'll mention a few things.

Note how the Matukai have a +0/1/2/2/3 base attack progression, as opposed to the +1/2/3/4/5 of the Zeison Sha or Jedi or Imperial Knight (another lightside organization, in a different book). Meaning, they may have some abilities, but they're less good at actually hitting with an individual attack than those combat classes. They aren't a weak class, but they're more about flexibility and surviving than offensive power.

And on the Zeison Sha Warrior class, take a look at the level 5 ability- intercept projectile. It allows them to reflexively TK small objects to block projectile attacks, and one of the only abilities they have that Jedi don't get (showing where they get an advantage is familiarity- they can do small and fast stuff easily). Sounds nice, right? Akin to lightsaber blocking, but with a buncha small objects.

Well, it is nice, no doubt, but the Zeison Sha Warrior class is noted to be something only the strongest Zeison Sha get, meaning a lot of them don't have it at all, and furthermore, it's only something they get after all five levels of it, meaning that many Zeison Sha warriors don't have it yet anyway.

Meaning that while a Jedi may be able to block blaster bolts all day, and a Zeison Sha master can do the same, most Zeison Sha simply don't have that option. They either gotta use force bubble- useful for only a short time and a few attacks, and tiring- or just count on their armor.

There's a definite reason they wear armor, they need it!

And the ability can only be used once per round, meaning even a master can't handle many shots at once.

Originally posted by Q99
One, the RPGs are canon, a lot of info on various groups and figures come from them. Two, that's where almost all of the background info comes from, except for the info in Jedi vs Sith the Complete Guide to the Force.

Three, I have it, and I now have the info! Which, by the way, was the only book that had them in it that I didn't have. Meaning I have [b]all the canon info on Matukai and Zeison Sha, and can speak on them authoratively, because there is literally no sources that are beyond my knowledge.

And I'm surprised you were actually half right about some things.

Like, for example, the Zeison Sha do have a special force barrier ability separate from the normal force barrier. It's called force bubble, and it's lower level and weaker than the full Force Barrier feat.

Basically what it means is generally only high-level Jedi can make force barriers, and they're as good as Zeison Sha barriers, but low-level Zeison Sha can put up bubbles. The bubbles are pretty fragile and won't last long under fire, though, and they take a fair amount of vitality to use, meaning they also can't keep them up too long without tiring (pretty much the opposite of what you said).

And I say 'generally' because.... well, Jedi can learn force bubble too, it's not unique to the Zeison Sha, just common to them. The Zeison Sha don't particularly do anything unique, they just focus more in the area.

Additionally, the Zeison Sha have the ability to do low-level TK abilities more consistently and easier. While it doesn't apply to higher level abilities like Jedi, moving objects is more at-ease for them than it is for Jedi.

And the Matukai? Well, they're good at martial arts. They can get an extra attack when using their wan-shen, so they are fairly fast, but not in a way that others can't replicate. And... they have a lower attack bonus than either the Zeison Sha or Jedi. So they're like D&D monks in that, they can make more attacks, but the attacks aren't quite as strong.

They also have some nice body-control abilities. Resistance to poison, controlling body heat, being able to resist punches better. Nothing too combat powerful, mostly they're a bit tougher to hurt in HtH and can survive better in a variety of conditions due to body control.

Honestly I was kinda disappointed on them. The Zeison Sha are a pretty nice class if you want to do a TK specialist, if you want to play a TK character there's no reason *not* to do a ZS, but the Matukai special abilities are mainly on body control, not butt-kicking.

Yep, because it takes a specialist/expert to do that at all, and Jedi can specialize/become expert in high level TK as well.

You're the one who decided that since they're specialized, they must be better at all levels of TK, but the book indicates their increased familiarity just makes low-level abilities easier and gives them access to some spiffy TK abilities a bit sooner than Jedi would. They don't gain any super high level abilities Jedi can't get, they just can do lower level TK like the back of their hand and learn some TK abilities a bit sooner.

That is what the book says.

Also, no Zeison Sha has actually pulled a ship from the sky, so we're just speculating that it's possible. I agree it is if one of them manages to get force potential high enough, but still, we should be clear on what's shown and what's just speculation.

You literally.... said something was false, then provided an example of it happening.

I really don't need to add anything to that.

Except I've already provided multiple examples of them doing so.

The Gray Paladins felt one should only use the force to augment existing skills, instead of relying on abilities that come strait from the force, but that does not mean the Jedi never did that too, only that they did both.

Also, the Matukai specifically used force imbued abilities akin to the Jedi. They weren't on the Gray Paladin's side of this., they were like the Jedi. The Hero's Guide specifically says the Matukai use the force "In many of the same ways the Jedi do."

It also covers their training, and how many of their exercises start on the physical, but by the end get to parts that require the force to complete. The Gray Paladins wouldn't be pleased with their training methods, actually.

There's also not one but four different unarmed martial arts in the book that Jedi use and do not require the force in the slightest.

You can say "the Jedi can't/don't do this" til you're blue in the face, but it doesn't matter when the Jedi can/have done that.

Why do you think false accusations does anything but make you look bad?

You know I didn't change anything, you know I didn't have to, lying about it just paints you as a dishonest debater. [/B]

The http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hero%27s_Guide was for the purpose of new insight, and the introduction of multiple force using traditions, and those were, thehttp://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zeison_Sha. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Matukai.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Baran_Do.

One of the abilities for the Zeison Sha Warrior at that time was Force Bubble Shield, which was something that costed vitality and was limited, to balance the new class off from other classes. Provided that the there where also choices to make a weaker Force bubble shield then the maximum that was allowed.

Later sources revealed that the Zeison Sha Warriors have evolved past the basic feats & proficiencies listed as unlockable for players to use to their advantage. Also the Zeison Sha Warriors stopped the usage of the force bubble shield. And began to use telekinetically created physical shields that wrapped around the body, covering all openings in defense that could be exploited. Rather then surround the exterior of the body in a circular shape. While they also mentioned short noted developments in the Matukai's physical abilities in Body Control, physical Strength, Stamina, Speed, Dexterity, and Constitution.

And some of those sources were, http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_vs._Sith:_The_Essential_Guide_to_the_Force.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Academy_Training_Manual.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Complete_Star_Wars_Encyclopedia.http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Jedi_Path:_A_Manual_for_Students_of_the_Force_(real-life_book).

In short, the hero's guide was for new insight. And the introduction of new force using traditions, it never did clarify the maximum height of power for any of the prestige force traditions. Only a maximum was allowed for all the classes. Since it was for the purpose of introduction, not verification.

I provided a example showing the ONLY time the Matukai joined a Jedi praxeum, and even then they were only Matukai apprentices. If they were Matukai adepts, then the Jedi order would have witnessed the results of a fully trained Matukai, and used that exemplified assertion as a training regimen for the physical criteria of their order. The Matukai didn't join the Jedi on common occasions like you think.

The Matukai were most powerful at using the force to not only augment their bodies, (Similar to the jedi training methods in gymnastics and speed) but to Channel & Strengthen them as well.

http://force.wikidot.com/matukai-adept-class.

At the end of it, the Matukai are not just known for inward-mastery, (as you stated) but also for outward-mastery (the physical body's attirbutes) while it was revealed that the Matukai adepts are Masters of the Force 🙂.

Here's another revelation that i didn't know about, The Zeison Sha Warriors on average have the basic kinetic ability of flight. They can FLY 😱!?

http://force.wikidot.com/zeison-sha-warrior-class

In the very end The Matukai adepts are Spiritual & Physical Masters. And the Zeison Sha Warriors are unmatched in Telekinesis & Telekinetic Force Powers.

You are a deceitful hypocrite, do i need to pull up your quotes & contradictions for you to realize this 😉?

Originally posted by Q99
Hey starwarslogic, nice sockpuppet! General tip, when making a sockpuppet, try changing your writing style more, don't just agree to the same arguments as your main accounts using the same phrasing. It's like a fingerprint, it makes it pretty obvious it's you.

And no, they are in the Hero's guide, with whole seconds, pictures, class features, the works. Page 143 for the Matukai and 146 for the Zeison Sha, for reference.

It's the source where wookiepedia gets the main picture of them from.

Actually, socks are banned. It's against forum rules.

Saying that just reinforces that it was you.

Oh, and provide page numbers for all these claims you are making.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic

Later sources revealed that the Zeison Sha Warriors have evolved past the basic feats & proficiencies listed as unlockable for players to use to their advantage. Also the Zeison Sha Warriors stopped the usage of the force bubble shield. And began to use telekinetically created physical shields that wrapped around the body, covering all openings in defense that could be exploited.

Quote? Evidence? We know you're a liar who makes stuff up, so we're hardly going to take your word for it when compared with an actual source.

Heck you post a link to their class later in your post, Here, which says their shield works like this, i.e. the bubble that did exactly what I said.

Hardly abandoned at all! Your own sources disagree with you!

And some of those sources were, http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_vs._Sith:_The_Essential_Guide_to_the_Force.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Academy_Training_Manual.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Complete_Star_Wars_Encyclopedia.http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Jedi_Path:_A_Manual_for_Students_of_the_Force_(real-life_book).

Well, Jedi vs Sith Certainly doesn't say anything about it! And Jedi Path doesn't. And Jedi Academy Training Manual!

Do you actually have these books and can you point to a quote, or are you just making up BS again?

Because if you can't provide a quote, maybe one I could've hypothetically missed, then you're just asking us to ignore a direct source.

If you don't have the books, then you're just going to have to face it, I have the sources and you don't, and your wants can't override the sources.

In short, the hero's guide was for new insight. And the introduction of new force using traditions, it never did clarify the maximum height of power for any of the prestige force traditions. Only a maximum was allowed for all the classes. Since it was for the purpose of introduction, not verification.

Actually it was for the purpose of use as a character. These were complete classes. The same complete classes you link.

And nothing in it says they have these higher-end abilities you claim they have. You can't just make up and assume higher end feats that are never mentioned and aren't on their classes, you need direct evidence.

I provided a example showing the ONLY time the Matukai joined a Jedi praxeum, and even then they were only Matukai apprentices. If they were Matukai adepts, then the Jedi order would have witnessed the results of a fully trained Matukai, and used that exemplified assertion as a training regimen for the physical criteria of their order. The Matukai didn't join the Jedi on common occasions like you think.

You provided an example of a group joining, and more could've done so after.

And I never said it was common, just that it happened, and the Jedi have access to their techniques from any point after they join.

And if the Matukai training is so superior, why did so many of their apprentices join the Jedi?

The Matukai were most powerful at using the force to not only augment their bodies, (Similar to the jedi training methods in gymnastics and speed) but to Channel & Strengthen them as well.

http://force.wikidot.com/matukai-adept-class.

At the end of it, the Matukai are not just known for inward-mastery, (as you stated) but also for outward-mastery (the physical body's attirbutes) while it was revealed that the Matukai adepts are Masters of the Force 🙂.

One, wanna know who else are masters of the force both inwardly and outwardly? The Jedi!

Two, note that one has the lower attack progression that I mentioned. Note how while they have some nice physical abilities, they don't even have the highest levels of offense around.

Three, take a look at their prerequisite feat: Spellcaster.

Want to know what the Spellcaster feat does? Well, it's for non-jedi groups like the Dathomir Witches and such who can't access the force as quickly and thus spend a longer time doing it.

It means that for any non-physical force action the Matukai take, they're slower than Jedi.

Here's another revelation that i didn't know about, The Zeison Sha Warriors on average have the basic kinetic ability of flight. They can FLY 😱!?

Yes, an ability not unique to them, that Jedi have used too. Woo-hoo.

It's an available feat to their class, that was a pre-existing force feat. Think about that.

http://force.wikidot.com/zeison-sha-warrior-class

In the very end The Matukai adepts are Spiritual & Physical Masters. And the Zeison Sha Warriors are unmatched in Telekinesis & Telekinetic Force Powers.

One, that page is nothing more than a direct copy of the Hero's Guide info on them.... so thanks, makes it a lot easier to show what they can and don't do ^^

Two, it doesn't say spiritual *anywhere* in that page. Or unmatched.

Three, note how all of their big abilities listed- Force Flight, Force Shield, etc., are feats. Meaning, they aren't unique to them.

Oh yes, and the force bubble you said they didn't use and replaced with wrapping?

Well, here it is, working exactly like I said.

Seems it is the wrapping with the force they were talking about.

Also I should mention, the Legacy Era Campaign Guide not only has the feat available to Jedi and Imperial Knights and Sith of the time, but it also has Improved Force Shield, which gives one more control over it's size and power, and lets one person wrap multiple people and such.

You are a deceitful hypocrite, do i need to pull up your quotes & contradictions for you to realize this 😉?

You lie, falsely accuse others, can't back up your accusations, and make stuff up and can't back up your statements either.

What makes you think trying to accuse others while the facts repeatedly prove you wrong, even your own sources, means anything?

Oh yes, something else about the Matukai:

They were hunted down and almost brought to extinction by, specifically, the Empire's Inquisitors. This is what killed most of their fully trained warriors.

The strongest Imperial Inquisitor was Jerec.

Jerec was finally defeated and killed by a Jedi, Kyle Katarn, before Kyle Katarn reached his highest level.

A Jedi killed the strongest member of the organization that killed most of the Matukai.

There were several other people in the New Jedi Order the level of Kyle or higher (he was among the best, but had peers), too.

Oh yes, another thing about the edit accusations- even if someone edited something then deleted their names from the logs, the past versions are still there... and there's another copy for every edit.

In order to delete all trace of information that's been around for awhile, someone would have to go through dozens or possibly over a hundred past versions, missing any one of which would unravel the whole thing.

In short, the edit accusations are stupid, it is perhaps the most easy to check thing on earth, and are just a poor deflection attempt.

Wow, I never seen someone make a sock account only to have it so obvious. Q99, you earned my respect, debating with this guy.