Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
Wow, I never seen someone make a sock account only to have it so obvious. Q99, you earned my respect, debating with this guy.
It's a bad habit of mine. And hey, if nothing else, it's actually been kinda fun researching these minor groups and finding out what they actually can and can't do ^^
Originally posted by PwnedNo i didn't make that account, that was my friend on Xbox live. he's the biggest supporter of the Matukai tradition, and when i told him about the subject on here conserning the Matukai and the disagreemnets twords them, he decided that he wanted to come and defend his tradition.
Actually, socks are banned. It's against forum rules.Saying that just reinforces that it was you.
Oh, and provide page numbers for all these claims you are making.
(The only reason why anyone would have thought that was me was because of his writing style, he never logged into a forum site untill i told him about this one) Q99's false accusations got someone restricted due to his assumptions. Just because i defended myself against accusations dosen't reinforce anything. Since you're accusing me of something i didn't do go find the exact pages yourself.
Originally posted by Q99The sources didn't disagree with me, once you read both of the orders biographies, go down at the very bottom of wookieepedia, it shows all the sources funding the information conserning the 2 orders and those links i posted prevously proved that to be a fact.
Quote? Evidence? We know you're a liar who makes stuff up, so we're hardly going to take your word for it when compared with an actual source.Heck you post a link to their class later in your post, Here, which says their shield works like this, i.e. the bubble that did exactly what I said.
Hardly abandoned at all! Your own sources disagree with you!
Well, Jedi vs Sith Certainly doesn't say anything about it! And Jedi Path doesn't. And Jedi Academy Training Manual!
Do you actually have these books and can you point to a quote, or are you just making up BS again?
Because if you can't provide a quote, maybe one I could've hypothetically missed, then you're just asking us to ignore a direct source.
If you don't have the books, then you're just going to have to face it, I have the sources and you don't, and your wants can't override the sources.
Actually it was for the purpose of use as a character. These were complete classes. The same complete classes you link.
And nothing in it says they have these higher-end abilities you claim they have. You can't just make up and assume higher end feats that are never mentioned and aren't on their classes, you need direct evidence.
You provided an example of a group joining, and more could've done so after.
And I never said it was common, just that it happened, and the Jedi have access to their techniques from any point after they join.
And if the Matukai training is so superior, why did so many of their apprentices join the Jedi?
One, wanna know who else are masters of the force both inwardly and outwardly? The Jedi!
Two, note that one has the lower attack progression that I mentioned. Note how while they have some nice physical abilities, they don't even have the highest levels of offense around.
Three, take a look at their prerequisite feat: Spellcaster.
Want to know what the Spellcaster feat does? Well, it's for non-jedi groups like the Dathomir Witches and such who can't access the force as quickly and thus spend a longer time doing it.
It means that for any non-physical force action the Matukai take, they're slower than Jedi.
Yes, an ability not unique to them, that Jedi have used too. Woo-hoo.
It's an available feat to their class, that was a pre-existing force feat. Think about that.
One, that page is nothing more than a direct copy of the Hero's Guide info on them.... so thanks, makes it a lot easier to show what they can and don't do ^^
Two, it doesn't say spiritual *anywhere* in that page. Or unmatched.
Three, note how all of their big abilities listed- Force Flight, Force Shield, etc., are feats. Meaning, they aren't unique to them.
Oh yes, and the force bubble you said they didn't use and replaced with wrapping?
Well, here it is, working exactly like I said.
Seems it is the wrapping with the force they were talking about.
Also I should mention, the Legacy Era Campaign Guide not only has the feat available to Jedi and Imperial Knights and Sith of the time, but it also has Improved Force Shield, which gives one more control over it's size and power, and lets one person wrap multiple people and such.
You lie, falsely accuse others, can't back up your accusations, and make stuff up and can't back up your statements either.
What makes you think trying to accuse others while the facts repeatedly prove you wrong, even your own sources, means anything? [/B]
I posted a link to both classes because the Hero's guide was where both orders were first mentioned, and since they were first brought into canon by the time of the hero's guide release, that ment the time period of those classes were 3,989 BBY, and the founding 4,000 BBY. Those were First generation Zeison Warriors, and first generation Matukai adepts. Not the ones that were involved in the great jedi perge, and the linked classes proved that a fact yet again.
You said the Matukai were known for joining the jedi. (Which implies that they have done more then once)
They weren't known for joining the jedi, since it only happened once and even then only 4 out of 10 of the Matukai apprentices joined Luke skywalker's jedi praxeum, not because the jedi's teachings were superior, but the Matukai training was too rigorous for them.
You tried to make it appear as if the Matukai were only known for inward physical mastery. When they are known for both inward and outward physical mastery, along with being known as masters of the force.
The proficiencies & force powers that were given to both the Zeison Sha Warriors and Matukai adept in the hero's guide, was their basics, not the full list nor the height of their abilities. Which was revealed later on in sources.
Everything you have said is disregarded, since it has nothing to do with the Zeison Sha Warriors & Matukai Adepts that were around during the time period of the great jedi perge.
Originally posted by Q99Yes the Matukai were put into near extinction by the Sith Inquisitors not because they were weak, but the fact that the Sith inquisitors hunted the Matukai down while the majority of them were split into groups of 3, which consisted of 1 Matukai adept and 2 apprentices, while the minority groups of 5 consisted of 2 Matukai adepts and 3 apprentices. Provided that they weren't aware that the Sith were hunting them. And in the end most of them were assassinated by the Sith inquisitors, due to the fact that the Matukai order never experienced the threat & power of Sith Sorcery from Sith inquisitors, which led to most of them being killed.
Oh yes, something else about the Matukai:They were hunted down and almost brought to extinction by, specifically, the Empire's Inquisitors. This is what killed most of their fully trained warriors.
The strongest Imperial Inquisitor was Jerec.
Jerec was finally defeated and killed by a Jedi, Kyle Katarn, before Kyle Katarn reached his highest level.
A Jedi killed the strongest member of the organization that killed most of the Matukai.
There were several other people in the New Jedi Order the level of Kyle or higher (he was among the best, but had peers), too.
Yes the Matukai were put into near extinction by the Sith Inquisitors not because they were weak, but the fact that the Sith inquisitors hunted the Matukai down while the majority of them were split into groups of 3, which consisted of 1 Matukai adept and 2 apprentices, while the minority groups of 5 consisted of 2 Matukai adepts and 3 apprentices. Provided that they weren't aware that the Sith were hunting them. And in the end most of them were assassinated by the Sith inquisitors, due to the fact that the Matukai order never experienced the threat & power of Sith Sorcery from Sith inquisitors, which led to most of them being killed.
They were aware of the Empire's Inquisition, they actively tried to avoid them, the 'Jedi Academy training manual' says they went into hiding. In short, they felt staying in small groups was safer than trying to face them as a whole.
Also, Inquisitors were not given the name 'Sith' or taught powerful Sith Sorcery. Rule of two, remember? Only the Apprentice, i.e. Vader, gets taught the good techniques, Inquisitors were dark side adepts and fallen Jedi. Jerec, the strongest inquisitor, had the ambition of become Palpatine's apprentice so he could learn that knowledge, which was denied to him.
I'll comment several fell to the Vong and even members of the Peace Brigade.
The sources didn't disagree with me, once you read both of the orders biographies, go down at the very bottom of wookieepedia, it shows all the sources funding the information conserning the 2 orders and those links i posted prevously proved that to be a fact.
One thing I'd like to reiterate is I not only have the first book with the Matukai, but the second book and the every book. I have every official writing on the Matukai and Zeison Sha and others.
The sources do not say what you say. You can make any claim, but I can check every source and confirm that what you say is not true.
You tried to make it appear as if the Matukai were only known for inward physical mastery. When they are known for both inward and outward physical mastery, along with being known as masters of the force.
Hey, wanna know who's known for inward and outward physical mastery, as well as being good at visions, TK, and other stuff?
The Jedi.
You're trying to claim that their physical skills make them better, but nothing ever says the Jedi are bad in those areas or don't learn those things, and multiple Jedi specifically have shown mastery in those areas.
And the Matukai organization was brought almost to extinction, over 96% casualties, by foes that were largely former Jedi and that the Jedi did beat in the end.
You said the Matukai were known for joining the jedi. (Which implies that they have done more then once)
Yes, multiple joining does qualify as 'more than once.' Also, it was implied there was a lasting relationship between the orders, nothing says it was a one-time thing.
They weren't known for joining the jedi, since it only happened once and even then only 4 out of 10 of the Matukai apprentices joined Luke skywalker's jedi praxeum, not because the jedi's teachings were superior, but the Matukai training was too rigorous for them.
Nope! Nothing says that either. Nothing says none joined after the first batch, and nothing says they joined because they found the training too rigorous. Rather, they simply found Luke's order open enough that they had no problem with cross-training and people being members of both orders.
One more reminder: I have all the books with the Matukai. I can look up any claim about them and confirm whether it's something in the books, or something made up or assumed.
Originally posted by Q99None of the Matukai were aware that the empire was hunting them. The majority of matukai were killed in successful assassination attempts by the Imperial inquisitors, and the last Matukai apprentices that were attacked managed to escape and avoid the empire's forces. Some of those apprentices joined luke skywalker's jedi praxeum, Due to the Matukai tradition's rigorous training, and their very low numbers at that time.
They were aware of the Empire's Inquisition, they actively tried to avoid them, the 'Jedi Academy training manual' says they went into hiding. In short, they felt staying in small groups was safer than trying to face them as a whole.Also, Inquisitors were not given the name 'Sith' or taught powerful Sith Sorcery. Rule of two, remember? Only the Apprentice, i.e. Vader, gets taught the good techniques, Inquisitors were dark side adepts and fallen Jedi. Jerec, the strongest inquisitor, had the ambition of become Palpatine's apprentice so he could learn that knowledge, which was denied to him.
I'll comment several fell to the Vong and even members of the Peace Brigade.
One thing I'd like to reiterate is I not only have the first book with the Matukai, but the second book and the every book. I have every official writing on the Matukai and Zeison Sha and others.
The sources do not say what you say. You can make any claim, but I can check every source and confirm that what you say is not true.
Hey, wanna know who's known for inward and outward physical mastery, as well as being good at visions, TK, and other stuff?
The Jedi.
You're trying to claim that their physical skills make them better, but nothing ever says the Jedi are bad in those areas or don't learn those things, and multiple Jedi specifically have shown mastery in those areas.
And the Matukai organization was brought almost to extinction, over 96% casualties, by foes that were largely former Jedi and that the Jedi did beat in the end.
Yes, multiple joining does qualify as 'more than once.' Also, it was implied there was a lasting relationship between the orders, nothing says it was a one-time thing.
Nope! Nothing says that either. Nothing says none joined after the first batch, and nothing says they joined because they found the training too rigorous. Rather, they simply found Luke's order open enough that they had no problem with cross-training and people being members of both orders.
One more reminder: I have all the books with the Matukai. I can look up any claim about them and confirm whether it's something in the books, or something made up or assumed.
You want to know what the Matukai are known for when it comes to jedi unification attempts? repulsing. Back during the time of 580 BBY, Bodo Baas led a jedi delegation to meet with Mendor Typhhons and his 2 apprentices after they had learned that, Mendor and his 2 apprentices wiped out a large group of pirates near Ord Radama. Bodo Baas had set up the meeting and was very optimistic upon entering the conversation and attempted to unifiy the Jedi order and Matukai. Mendor responded in comedic laughter, and later indicated to the Jedi that Matukai Warriors found Jedi training elitist, and ineffectual, thus Bodo and his delegation were repulsed.
Since you want to talk about sources, Look for Mendor Typhoons in one of those books you have or on the internet, he rupulsed the jedi attempts of unification and even told them how his order frowns upon Jedi training. And if you argue that, you are going against sources and contradicting yourself A G A I N.
And also YOU stated, "The Matukai's training was not rigorous nor the reason why some of the apprentices joined luke skywalker's jedi praxeum" that goes against sources, because it was said (Point Blank) in the Matukai's philosophy, that Matukai adepts were powerful and healthy as they were due to their (Rigorous) training. Do you need to know what that rigorous Matukai training is before you contradict it, Sources, and yourself 🙂?
You still don't understand nor want to, here's the differences between Jedi and Matukai.
The Jedi order are a balance between Mind, Body, and Spirit, trusting in the force Mindset wise. While using the Force as an extension to one's abilities, Physically, Mentally, and Spiritually.
The Matukai were distinguished from all other force organizations due to the fact that they made their bodies the focus of their abilities. The Matukai were capable of drawing on the Force to Strengthen & Augment their bodies to unnatural limits, while doing this, they could also refresh their spirits with a tireless energy that allowed them to exert their bodies far past their unaided physical limits for hours at a time without tiring. Additionally this refreshing of the spirit augmented strength and resolve of a Matukai's blows, allowing them feats of Strength and power exceeding what their bodies are capable of.
(Breaking the Physical & Spiritual limits their bodies had) (Exceeding)
And in other words, the big difference between Jedi and Matukai is. The Matukai can never truly run out of stamina WITH or Without their connection to the force, while becoming more powerful physically & spiritually using their technique to refresh their spirits with a tireless energy after reaching exhaustion. Also they have the ability not only to deflect a sizable portion of incoming strikes & shots aimed at them, but to dodge them as well.
To put it simple, if a Matukai Adept were in Ki Adi Mundi's position during Star Wars Episode III Revenge Of The Sith. The Matukai Adept would have dodged that sizable portion of Blaster fire aim at him, escaping. Not dying.
The Jedi cannot use any of their proficiencies physically nor the aspects of their other abilities without their connection to the Force. The only thing that remains is a Man with a Lightsaber.
The Matukai used the Force in parts of their rigorous training methods, but once their training has been completed and they reach the Rank of Matukai Adept, they no longer have a need for the Force Physically nor Spiritually. And if someone were to strip Matukai Adepts of the Force, their abilities and their Strengthened bodies will remain. Same thing can't be said about the Jedi, since they use the Force as an extension to one's body and abilities rather then channel & strengthen them.
If you don't wanna argue Sources while contradicting yourself? then read Wookieepedia and you will find everything i have said there or in those books you have. Read or Research before Replying 😎.
(Basically the Matukai Adepts are the X3 Albert Weskers of the Star Wars Universe)
None of the Matukai were aware that the empire was hunting them. The majority of matukai were killed in successful assassination attempts by the Imperial inquisitors, and the last Matukai apprentices that were attacked managed to escape and avoid the empire's forces.
Nope. This is another thing you made up- the Wookiepedia article doesn't say so, and the books that talk about their near-destruction don't say so either.
Neither mention the Matukai not being aware- which would be hard, considering the publicly declared force-user hunts. Additionally, force users are usually good at sensing each other, and there are Jedi who successfully defending themselves against Inquisitors. How can they be stronger than the Jedi if the Jedi are stronger than the Inquisitors who defeated them?
Why do you continue to make stuff up and expect us to not realize that's what you're doing? You should know that's not in Wookiepedia- the article's right there for you to check.
And also YOU stated, "The Matukai's training was not rigorous nor the reason why some of the apprentices joined luke skywalker's jedi praxeum" that goes against sources, because it was said (Point Blank) in the Matukai's philosophy, that Matukai adepts were powerful and healthy as they were due to their (Rigorous) training. Do you need to know what that rigorous Matukai training is before you contradict it, Sources, and yourself ?
You are bad at reading comprehension.
I never said the Matukai training wasn't rigorous, I said there was no sign that the people who joined the Jedi did so because they found the training too rigorous.
Did you think I would just believe your edited version of what you said when the original version, "Nothing says none joined after the first batch, and nothing says they joined because they found the training too rigorous.", was right above your post?
What good is a lie that obvious going to do? Lying about my own words when they're still there?
You really aren't an honest poster, or good at this.
then read Wookieepedia and you will find everything i have said there or in those books you have.
I have, it doesn't agree with you either. That was what I was using to shoot you down before my books arrived, remember? Also, the wookiepedia article is based on the books, so, yea.
Why do you keep on insisting on all this stuff that's not in wookiepedia and not in the books?
Nothing says they're more powerful than the Jedi, nothing says the Jedi are bad in the areas where they're good (there's multiple Jedi practitioners of ' Teräs Käsi' for example, the way of the steel fist), and we know foes that defeated them were in turn defeated by Jedi.
When are you going to get it that making up more stuff won't work? There's only 4 sources, they're really really easy to check! It's not like a group that's been in multiple things, where one can know about obscure sources that others don't, it really is easy to learn everything written about them, you aren't going to pull one over on us.
Originally posted by Q99Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha i told you it dosen't matter what you and everyone else believes, but you just turned this into a flame war for no reason. Remember forum rules and stay on the subject, no matter how much you love to bicker around 🙂.
Nope. This is another thing you made up- the Wookiepedia article doesn't say so, and the books that talk about their near-destruction don't say so either.Neither mention the Matukai not being aware. Additionally, force users are usually good at sensing each other, and there are Jedi who successfully defending themselves against Inquisitors, including, as noted, Kyle Katarn slaying the strongest of them all.
Why do you continue to make stuff up and expect us to not realize that's what you're doing? You should know that's not in Wookiepedia- the article's right there for you to check.
You are bad at reading comprehension.
I never said the Matukai training wasn't rigorous, I said there was no sign that the people who joined the Jedi did so because they found the training too rigorous.
Did you think I would just believe your edited version of what you said when the original version, "Nothing says none joined after the first batch, and nothing says they joined because they found the training too rigorous.", was right above your post?
What good is a lie that obvious going to do? Lying about my own words when they're still there?
You really aren't an honest poster.
I have, it doesn't agree with you either. That was what I was using to shoot you down before my books arrived, remember? Also, the wookiepedia article is based on the books, so, yea.
Why do you keep on insisting on all this stuff that's not in wookiepedia and not in the books?
Nothing says they're more powerful than the Jedi, nothing says the Jedi are bad in the areas where they're good (there's multiple Jedi practitioners of ' Teräs Käsi' for example, the way of the steel fist), and we know foes that defeated them were in turn defeated by Jedi.
When are you going to get it that making up more stuff won't work? There's only 4 sources, they're really really easy to check! It's not like a group that's been in multiple things, where one can know about obscure sources that others don't, it really is easy to learn everything written about them, you aren't going to pull one over on us.
Nothing is made up and im not the one who's lying, you are. To others and yourself. that reminds me of a True quote 😄.
i told you it dosen't matter what you and everyone else believes, but you just turned this into a flame war for no reason.
If it doesn't matter, why do you keep trying to push your fan fiction?
Why do you need to assert that it's true and canon and all that?
And why do you go to the lengths of lying about what others say and falsely accusing them of lying?
You not only lie, you lie about easily-check, easily-caught lies, and have been caught in them repeatedly, most recently in the above post where you lied about something I said right before.
Nothing is made up and im not the one who's lying, you are.
If you say something is true and not made up, and then one looks at the sources where the information comes from and they aren't there, then you hadn't discerned a 'true quote,' you're simply wrong. That's what being wrong is.
You should learn asserting something is true doesn't make it so.
Originally posted by Q99If you really feel that way then stop with your bickering and false accusations.
If it doesn't matter, why do you keep trying to push your fan fiction?Why do you need to assert that it's true and canon and all that?
And why do you go to the lengths of lying about what others say and falsely accusing them of lying?
You not only lie, you lie about easily-check, easily-caught lies, and have been caught in them repeatedly, most recently in the above post where you lied about something I said right before.
If you say something is true and not made up, and then one looks at the sources where the information comes from and they aren't there, then you hadn't discerned a 'true quote,' you're simply wrong. That's what being wrong is.
You should learn asserting something is true doesn't make it so.
Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
If you really feel that way then stop with your bickering and false accusations.
You've not only made false accusations, but been caught in them.
And then when you make accusations, like saying I've been editing or that prior statement, they're often things that can be easily checked, and when checked it turns out, whoa, the wookiepedia articles haven't been edited recently, the logs have plenty of entries so even if one deleted the evidence of a specific edit it'd still be there in older stuff, they never contained what you said, and it turns out I said what I thought I said, not what you said I said.
You're almost a pathological liar, come to think of it.
Originally posted by Q99Talk about the Matukai Subject, not your opinions of me. And seeing this little post of yours already says you ran out of Sources and Links to Contradict me on this subject. And now you are simply insulting me.
You've not only made false accusations, but been caught in them.And then when you make accusations, like saying I've been editing or that prior statement, they're often things that can be easily checked, and when checked it turns out, whoa, the wookiepedia articles haven't been edited recently, they never contained what you said, and it turns out I said what I thought I said, not what you said I said.
You're almost a pathological liar, come to think of it.
Originally posted by GenomeFrozenerEverything i have said about this Order is actual proof, not lies. If he really wants proof that bad, then he knows where to look for it, here and on Wookieepedia. If you want to talk about lies, look at his lies, one his lies got someone restricted due to his biased assumptions, and in end what he thought was right turned out to be wrong, and now he's resorting to insults as a last stand. I don't need to do anything. If anyone needs to do something Q99 does, for one lets start with Q99 giving me a apology 🙂.
Give him actual proof then, not lies.
Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
He doesn't owe you anything, this guy basically goes through a billion articles to see if your claims are true or not. I know it's one thing to lie, but you can't really even back up the said lie to make it believable.
Actually, more like four or five articles.
It simply isn't hard to fact-check this subject! They aren't in many books and what they say is pretty darn clear. Heck, only two of the books have more than a paragraph on them.
I mean, it makes it very clear that the Matukai suffered from the Imperial Inquisitors (who are reasonably strong but not top-tier badasses, not as much as some Jedi), and the Zeison Sha simply avoiding them like the plague and hid on their planet.
Star Wars Logic
then he knows where to look for it, here and on Wookieepedia.
That's the point, I did look on Wookiepedia, and the books, and nothing says much of your stuff there.. And if it was there, you'd simply be able to grab a quote from wookiepedia in, like, 15 seconds, and you haven't. And I've checked there, and it's not there, and other people have checked, they see it's not there too.
Plain and simple, it's made up lies.
And seeing this little post of yours already says you ran out of Sources and Links to Contradict me on this subject.
What, 'all of the sources' isn't enough to contradict you? You need more than "The books that have all their information and wookiepedia"? 🙂 The Hero's Guide and the Jedi Training Manual are the ones with most of the info, and they disagree with you, and the Jedi path likewise, and wookiepedia disagrees with you as well.
Here's the thing: When making a claim of an ability, you need a source in your favor. You don't have any. My points are supported by literally all of the sources. All of them!
Once one source contradicts you, then you need a solid source and a direct quote to not be wrong (i.e. show sources that disagree). It's not a matter of 'I post one source, you repeat your argument, I need to post another, then repeat again.' That's just silly, sources don't work like that.
If "all of the sources" isn't enough for you, that says far more about you- that is, that you're making stuff up and don't have any sources- than it does about the subject.
Originally posted by GenomeFrozenerFor one Q99 giving a apology will be a start for him/her in terms honesty. One of his lies got someone restricted due to biased assumptions, and everyone here completely overlooked that fact didn't they? the only quotes he's looking for are, (The Matukai are more powerful then the jedi physically) also he's looking for the quote, (The Matukai are the 2nd most powerful lightside force using tradition) and he's looked for the cause of the Matukai perge, and couldn't find what caused them to be put on the verge of extinction, so he made up a assumption to make up for the failure.
He doesn't owe you anything, this guy basically goes through a billion articles to see if your claims are true or not. I know it's one thing to lie, but you can't really even back up the said lie to make it believable.
everything else said about the Matukai, conserning their physical abilities is fact alone, and those abilities deem them more powerful then the jedi physically. There has already been a Jedi vs Matukai incident, and it turned out the unidentified matukai adept won by a longshot.
Originally posted by Q99The Matukai's warriors were assassinated by the imperial inquisitors, pure and simple. Jedi Master Theme Cerulian already fought a Matukai adept, (the worse way possible) engaging the adept in Hand-to-hand combat, and later after the fight he limped his way back to the Jedi temple on coruscant, and wrote his quote in The Jedi Path A Manual for Students of the Force, he quoted.
Actually, more like four or five articles.It simply isn't hard to fact-check this subject! They aren't in many books and what they say is pretty darn clear. Heck, only two of the books have more than a paragraph on them.
I mean, it makes it very clear that the Matukai suffered from the Imperial Inquisitors (who are reasonably strong but not top-tier badasses, not as much as some Jedi), and the Zeison Sha simply avoiding them like the plague and hid on their planet.
That's the point, I did look on Wookiepedia, and the books, and nothing says much of your stuff there.. And if it was there, you'd simply be able to grab a quote from wookiepedia in, like, 15 seconds, and you haven't. And I've checked there, and it's not there, and other people have checked, they see it's not there too.
Plain and simple, it's made up lies.
What, 'all of the sources' isn't enough to contradict you? You need more than "The books that have all their information and wookiepedia"? 🙂 The Hero's Guide and the Jedi Training Manual are the ones with most of the info, and they disagree with you, and the Jedi path likewise, and wookiepedia disagrees with you as well.
Here's the thing: When making a claim of an ability, you need a source in your favor. You don't have any. My points are supported by literally all of the sources. All of them!
Once one source contradicts you, then you need a solid source and a direct quote to not be wrong (i.e. show sources that disagree). It's not a matter of 'I post one source, you repeat your argument, I need to post another, then repeat again.' That's just silly, sources don't work like that.
If "all of the sources" isn't enough for you, that says far more about you- that is, that you're making stuff up and don't have any sources- than it does about the subject.
"I fought a Matukai—never again!"Thame Cerulian's notation in The Jedi Path: A Manual of Students of the Force[src]
A incident where a Matukai brutally beat a jedi. Cerulian didn't even think, or attempt to get revenge, but rather he chose to never experience something like that again, no matter how powerful he later developed.
Theme Cerulian basically said engaging a Matukai in close-quarters-combat is suicide, and a experience no one will ever want to go through again 🙂.
The empire had Theme Cerulian's common-sense and decided to either assassinate or overwhelm Matukai adepts, rather then engage neverending Matukai whirlwinds.
The sources didn't disagree with me. You attempted to use the hero's guide's first generation Zeison Sha warriors and Matukai adepts as a way of contradiction, which ultimately failed since they both developed tremendously melinnas later.
You already lost when you added & deleted, but still you're a fun person to argue with 😆.