RotS Sidious -vs- Count Dooku

Originally posted by Marco1907
And we know that Mace was humble, while Dooku was competitive. Mace wasn't trying to win the sparring matches against Saesee Tiin nor Quinlan Vos, why would be any different against Count Dooku ?

And Dooku, even as a Jedi, was a competitor and close to the dark side.

Savage disarmed Dooku with one clean hit.

Sidious held off Savage and Maul with one arm each.

Sidious smacks Dooku has hard as he can, Dooku goes flying and probably dies.

Kinetic power strokes ftw

Sidious is not as strong as Opress and his attacks are nowhere as strong either.

All I see is speculation in that rebuttal Arhael

Originally posted by ILS
All I see is speculation in that rebuttal Arhael

This part, specifically:

Dooku dropped lightsaber as result of hitting the wall behind him. Opress did not disarm him. This feat is irrelevant to VS forum, unless the setting is a confined space. And even then Dooku would still win.

Sidious is not as strong as Opress and his attacks are nowhere as strong either.

Dooku did not drop lightsaber as result of hitting the wall?

Sidious is stronger than Opress?

Don't get you.

The fact that Sidious was able to hold off Maul and Savage in a saber lock with one arm each with (literally) laughable ease indicates a strength edge over Savage, yes.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The fact that Sidious was able to hold off Maul and Savage in a saber lock with one arm each with (literally) laughable ease indicates a strength edge over Savage, yes.

Sidious couldn't overpower Windu in saber lock, so Windu is, also, stronger than Opress?

Also, is there a single example, where Sidious attacks would carry huge impact like Opress' attacks did? Opress knocked Dooku off feat, Sidious never demonstrated comparably strong attacks.

No it doesn't. Or Kenobi is, also, stronger than Opress + Maul? Because he had them in saber lock too. There is that thing called leverage.

Except in Sidious's situation, it's the brothers who had the advantage of leverage.

Sidious couldn't overpower Windu in saber lock, so Windu is, also, stronger than Opress?

Yeah.

Originally posted by Arhael
You keep mentioning sparring but there is, also, a thing called competition, where both fighters go all out like in real fight.

Precisely.

The fact that ONLY Yoda and Dooku ever beat Windu is proof enough he wasn't messing around in competitions.

Originally posted by Marco1907
And we know that Mace was humble, while Dooku was competitive. Mace wasn't trying to win the sparring matches against Saesee Tiin nor Quinlan Vos, why would be any different against Count Dooku ?

And Dooku, even as a Jedi, was a competitor and close to the dark side.

Hey? Windu stomped Vos in a "sparring" match. Just as he would stomp him in a real fight. Dooku also stomped Vos in a "sparring" match. Just as he stomped him in actual combat.

Again:

The fact that ONLY Yoda and Dooku ever beat Windu is proof enough he wasn't messing around in competitions.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku did not drop lightsaber as result of hitting the wall?

ILS is messing around.

Originally posted by Arhael

Sidious is stronger than Opress?

Don't get you.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The fact that Sidious was able to hold off Maul and Savage in a saber lock with one arm each with (literally) laughable ease indicates a strength edge over Savage, yes.

Actually according to the novel it wasn't with ease at all. He strained reaching through the Force to match them IIRC. And before you say "BUt he was Laughing," the novel also notes Sidious's smile and pleasure during the Blade lock. But that didn't take away that he was straining and reaching through the Force to do it.

Opress is obviously "Physically" stronger, whilst Sidious can exceed Opress's physical strength through Force enhanced strength. However I have a hard time believing that the average blade lock Windu and Sidious got into were all greater in strength than Opress's average strike, let alone Maul and Opress's average strike combined.

Oh and Kenobi was hardly in the best position during his Blade Lock with the Brothers. Opress's lock was actually higher up on Kenobi's blades which is harder to match, especially whilst blocking Maul's strength simultaneously.

Originally posted by Arhael
You keep mentioning sparring but there is, also, a thing called competition, where both fighters go all out like in real fight.
Vaapad is just as effective against lightsiders.

And Dooku was able to defeat Vaapad Windu:

As you can see his saber prowess is attributed to the unusual style he developed.
It is farther confirmed by Yoda stating that Dooku is on parr with Windu even as a Sith.

That'z true, it's an offensiv devloppement of the niman... The vaapad it self without the rage feeding it, is more defensiv than Yuyo, Yuyo is alaso a personalise technic as always, because it need to study multiple martials arts and light saber techniques before.

Niman was a good base for Vaapad due to the moove taken from all the other form.

The feeding on ennemy rage provide more effectiv moove because like Yuyo there is this part of randomisation, and random = random effectivity.
It doesn't make you invincible, it provide greater instinct reflexe etc....
But don't mistake yourself.

For comparison purposes-

Kenobi's blade lock:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kenobi+vs+maul+and+oppress&biw=1024&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=U3aJVK2TGomyUeSphKgD&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=SkW4r4cLQI00bM%253A%3BKs9OMcTFWLD5iM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstarwarsmaven.info%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2014%252F05%252FObi-Wan-Kenobi-fighting-off-Darth-Maul-and-Savage-Oppress.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstarwarsmaven.info%252Fdarthmaul5%252F%3B640%3B360

Sidious's Blade lock:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kenobi+vs+maul+and+oppress&biw=1024&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=U3aJVK2TGomyUeSphKgD&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=XqgayPWmMFmAnM%253A%3BEHnmGGnUZQb7sM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi.ytimg.com%252Fvi%252F-7hBZNsPnyg%252Fmaxresdefault.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D-7hBZNsPnyg%3B1599%3B900

Sidious's is more impressive because he doesn't have the wall supporting him, but just to show Kenobi's was no easy task either, look at the point of Kenobi's blade where Opress is striking, and the point of Sidious's blade where Opress is striking. It's easier to overpower a blade lock the higher up on the Opponent's blade you are hitting.

Dooku needs more rep in these forums.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
For comparison purposes-

Kenobi's blade lock:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kenobi+vs+maul+and+oppress&biw=1024&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=U3aJVK2TGomyUeSphKgD&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=SkW4r4cLQI00bM%253A%3BKs9OMcTFWLD5iM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstarwarsmaven.info%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2014%252F05%252FObi-Wan-Kenobi-fighting-off-Darth-Maul-and-Savage-Oppress.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstarwarsmaven.info%252Fdarthmaul5%252F%3B640%3B360

Sidious's Blade lock:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kenobi+vs+maul+and+oppress&biw=1024&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=U3aJVK2TGomyUeSphKgD&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=XqgayPWmMFmAnM%253A%3BEHnmGGnUZQb7sM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi.ytimg.com%252Fvi%252F-7hBZNsPnyg%252Fmaxresdefault.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D-7hBZNsPnyg%3B1599%3B900

Sidious's is more impressive because he doesn't have the wall supporting him, but just to show Kenobi's was no easy task either, look at the point of Kenobi's blade where Opress is striking, and the point of Sidious's blade where Opress is striking. It's easier to overpower a blade lock the higher up on the Opponent's blade you are hitting.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except in Sidious's situation, it's the brothers who had the advantage of leverage.

Yeah.

See? Had Windu in saber lock with one hand only!

Originally posted by Arhael
Well, if you consider being supported by the wall as advantage, Sidious was equally supported by each brother as he stood right between them. Regardless, in saber lock you can focus solely on strength contest, so yes, in that case you can amplify your strength with Force, that's why Dooku overpowers Kenobi in saber lock in AotC and even Anakin+Kenobi in RotS. But same thing doesn't happen, when they strike. Opress has immediate access to strength and his is naturally bigger, that's why only his attacks caused others to cringe or plain get knocked off feat. Dooku, Windu, Sidious and Maul attacks never carried that much impact, there is no single example of that.

👆

Although Sidious having great strength (force enhanced obviously) would make more sense to me for why Fisto couldn't trade blows with him for long, than Sidious being "Invisible." Because if he was invisible then Fisto never would have seen him in the first place, or even blocked 1 strike.

Originally posted by Arhael

Then why Dooku did not have a problem with Windu's strength? Was able to defeat him as Jedi.
Stalemated him as Sith twice, even despite Kenobi's help in second encounter.
At no point Dooku struggled with Windu's strength.

See? Had Windu in saber lock with one hand only!

Yep also this:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Also at 2:34 here:

YouTube video

Skywalker bashes on Dooku's blade 3 times when he's on the floor, yet can not disarm him, and Dooku holds the blade lock 1 Handed no-less. That's why Skywalker resorts to grabbing Dooku's neck. So there clearly isn't any kind of Major Weakness to the Kinetic energy of Skywalker's blade there.

Originally posted by Bentley
Dooku needs more rep in these forums.

Dooku is the most overrated PT character in KMC.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku is the most overrated PT character in KMC.

Not really no.

The highest people rank Dooku here is approx on par with Windu. Whilst everyone here puts him below Yoda and Sidious.

Given his feats, history and accolades that's not overrating him at all.

But when people claim he has a MAJOR Weakness to Kinetic Energy, and that pretty much anyone who is STRONG can take him out, then that is severely underrating him.

👆

Dooku is more powerful than Maul.

It is closer than people think though.

I agree.