Originally posted by NewGuy01
👆Dooku is more powerful than Maul.
In force ? Yeah probably.
He has 50 years more experience on force and skilled with it, that is why he is using the force a little better. His potential is still inferior, he couldn't survive the same injury which Maul take. Surviving from that injury is better than anything Dooku has done before.
As physically, comparing them would be ridiculous though.
Originally posted by Marco1907
In force ? Yeah probably.
He has 50 years more experience on force and skilled with it, that is why he is using the force a little better. His potential is still inferior, he couldn't survive the same injury which Maul take. Surviving from that injury is better than anything Dooku has done before.
I agree Maul has more potential. Dooku pretty much realized his whole potential (aside from any Dark Side/Sith secrets Sidious hid from him). And Sidious wanted an Apprentice younger than Dooku and with the potential to be more Powerful.
However you do realize this extra 50 years experience he has relates to Saber combat as well right?
Originally posted by Marco1907
As physically, comparing them would be ridiculous though.
Although Dooku usually gives his Physically stronger opponents a good dose of Lightning in return e.g. when Skywalker booted him to the floor and began choking him with his Cyborg arm.
But comparing them in Saber Combat certainly isn't ridiculous. And I would personally give Dooku the definitive edge in Saber combat over Maul for now.
Originally posted by Arhael
You keep mentioning sparring but there is, also, a thing called competition, where both fighters go all out like in real fight.
Vaapad is just as effective against lightsiders.And Dooku was able to defeat Vaapad Windu:
As you can see his saber prowess is attributed to the unusual style he developed.
It is farther confirmed by Yoda stating that Dooku is on parr with Windu even as a Sith.
Vaapad is certainly not just as effective against lighsiders. You're better than this Arhael. You do remember anything about Super conducting loop... feeding on darkside energies of your foe? You know these things very well and yet you intentionally ignore them. No, Vaapad isn't as effective against lightsiders. No, sparring and a real life fight are literally worlds apart. You have ZERO proof Mace was going all out. None.. Nada. Even if you did, you'd still be left with Mace not being as effective against Dooku as he would a darksider.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No, sparring and a real life fight are literally worlds apart. You have ZERO proof Mace was going all out.
The fact that ONLY Yoda and Dooku were ever able to beat Windu proves he took those contests pretty seriously. If he didn't then literally the entire Jedi Council on top of hundreds of other Jedi Masters would have beaten Windu at some point.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Even if you did, you'd still be left with Mace not being as effective against Dooku as he would a darksider.
If Mace isn't as effective against Lightsiders as he is against Darksiders, then I don't see what your issue is with Dooku having beaten Mace in the past.
In any case Dark Side Dooku has held his own against Mace at least twice.
That doesn't mean that at all though DP... That doesn't mean he was going all out in the slightest. If I fought all the neighborhood kids under the age of 13 all the time but could only draw with two guys that were 25.. does that mean I must've went all out against them cause I drew and didn't win? That isn't what that would mean... just like that doesn't mean he was going all out against them. Sparring is sparring.. they are so far apart from a life and death fight they are literally worlds apart. There is no way you could ever muster the adrenaline or have the emotions going on inside you during a life and death fight than you would a sparring match you really wanted to win. Even then they aren't comparable.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Vaapad is certainly not just as effective against lighsiders. You're better than this Arhael. You do remember anything about Super conducting loop... feeding on darkside energies of your foe? You know these things very well and yet you intentionally ignore them. No, Vaapad isn't as effective against lightsiders. No, sparring and a real life fight are literally worlds apart. You have ZERO proof Mace was going all out. None.. Nada. Even if you did, you'd still be left with Mace not being as effective against Dooku as he would a darksider.
It' effectif but not zo deadly.... It have more oppening againzt light ziderz.....
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That doesn't mean that at all though DP... That doesn't mean he was going all out in the slightest. If I fought all the neighborhood kids under the age of 13 all the time but could only draw with two guys that were 25.. does that mean I must've went all out against them cause I drew and didn't win? That isn't what that would mean... just like that doesn't mean he was going all out against them. Sparring is sparring.. they are so far apart from a life and death fight they are literally worlds apart. There is no way you could ever muster the adrenaline or have the emotions going on inside you during a life and death fight than you would a sparring match you really wanted to win. Even then they aren't comparable.
I really don't get what your point is. Are you denying that Yoda, Mace and Dooku were the 3 beat Swordsmen in the Jedi Order? Because that's all that statement is proving. Just because Dooku beat Windu doesn't mean Windu didn't beat Dooku twice as many times.
But the fact that ONLY Yoda and Dooku were ever able to defeat Windu after he created Vapaad is clearly meant to point out who the 3 Best and Elite Jedi Swordsmen were.
So I don't know what exactly you're arguing about here except that you don't like the quote because you don't like the idea of Dooku even being capable of besting Windu in any kind of proper fighting ever.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Vaapad is certainly not just as effective against lighsiders. You're better than this Arhael. You do remember anything about Super conducting loop... feeding on darkside energies of your foe? You know these things very well and yet you intentionally ignore them. No, Vaapad isn't as effective against lightsiders. No, sparring and a real life fight are literally worlds apart. You have ZERO proof Mace was going all out. None.. Nada. Even if you did, you'd still be left with Mace not being as effective against Dooku as he would a darksider.
From Shatterpoint:
"Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat" - If Vaapad is ineffective against lightsiders, how comes Depa was so effective in sparrings and Windu considered her unbeatable?
"To use Vaapad, you must allow yourself to enjoy the fight. You give yourself to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning." - Vaapad is about channeling inner darkness. Windu can do it against anyone.
"Bolts splintered off in all directions; the erratic staccato of badly aimed shots took all his concentration and skill to intercept. Mace sank deeper and deeper into the Force, surrendering more and more of his conscious thought to the instinctive whirl of Vaapad, and even so some bolts slipped past him and whanged randomly around the inside of the bunker.
He was too deep in Vaapad to make a plan, too deep even to think, but he was a Jedi Master: he didn't have to think.
" - Even against blaster bolts.
Depa fought Windu - lightsider. If Vaapad doesn't work against lightsider as effectively, how comes she was "too strong, too fast, too everything"?
And there is even better example of evaluating Vaapad effectiveness. Sora Bulq fought Windu using Vaapad. Nowhere it mentions that he couldn't utilize it as effectively against Windu as he could against Dooku. In fact Dooku had a much easier victory. Had your assumption been true, Windu - Dooku's equal would be able to casually disarm Sora Bulq because of Vaapad's effectiveness against darksiders, while Dooku should have had more difficulty against Sora Bulq because Dooku is a darksider. It didn't happen, hence, your assumption of Vaapad effectiveness against darksiders is void.
Originally posted by Arhael
I am well aware of superconduit loop. Do you have a proof that the loop cannot be completed by the lightside opponent? Don't think so.From Shatterpoint:
"Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat" - If Vaapad is ineffective against lightsiders, how comes Depa was so effective in sparrings and Windu considered her unbeatable?
"To use Vaapad, you must allow yourself to enjoy the fight. You give yourself to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning." - Vaapad is about channeling inner darkness. Windu can do it against anyone.
"Bolts splintered off in all directions; the erratic staccato of badly aimed shots took all his concentration and skill to intercept. Mace sank deeper and deeper into the Force, surrendering more and more of his conscious thought to the instinctive whirl of Vaapad, and even so some bolts slipped past him and whanged randomly around the inside of the bunker.
He was too deep in Vaapad to make a plan, too deep even to think, but he was a Jedi Master: he didn't have to think.
" - Even against blaster bolts.Depa fought Windu - lightsider. If Vaapad doesn't work against lightsider as effectively, how comes she was "too strong, too fast, too everything"?
And there is even better example of evaluating Vaapad effectiveness. Sora Bulq fought Windu using Vaapad. Nowhere it mentions that he couldn't utilize it as effectively against Windu as he could against Dooku. In fact Dooku had a much easier victory. Had your assumption been true, Windu - Dooku's equal would be able to casually disarm Sora Bulq because of Vaapad's effectiveness against darksiders, while Dooku should have had more difficulty against Sora Bulq because Dooku is a darksider. It didn't happen, hence, your assumption of Vaapad effectiveness against darksiders is void.
You quoted stuff that literally has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I never ONCE said that you can't use Vaapad against a lightsider or it was useless. Not once. What I am saying is that if there is no dark energy to feed of off from your enemy it would've be quite as potent. Which is an undeniable fact. Wait, hold on a second. Are you claiming that Windu didn't feed off the emperor's dark side energy in their fight?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You quoted stuff that literally has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I never ONCE said that you can't use Vaapad against a lightsider or it was useless. Not once. What I am saying is that if there is no dark energy to feed of off from your enemy it would've be quite as potent. Which is an undeniable fact. Wait, hold on a second. Are you claiming that Windu didn't feed off the emperor's dark side energy in their fight?
And yes, Windu did not feed on any sort of energy. Vaapad is a lightsaber form and state of mind, it has nothing to do with any sort of energies. If it did, it would be a Force power, which Vaapad is not.
You give assumption that Vaapad works better against darksiders, burden of proof is on you.
Wrong the superconducting loop has never happened with Vaapad against a lightsider. That burden lies SQUARELY on you to prove. Absence of proof isn't proof bud. Now, if there hasn't been one instance of it happening against a lightsider yet we know it can and has against a darksider.. that explicitly makes it better against DS than LS.. since it's never been shown to work against a LS
that isn't proof... Sora doing better against Mace than Dooku is actually the opposite of what you're tying to prove. Mace, as narration says had reservations about even fighting. If you're that hesitant about fighting surely you're not going to be bloodlusted. This example fails miserably. Dooku didn't have the same reservations. Plus, this is excluding the very well known fact that style make fights. Dooku style is very different than Mace's... Sora would obviously know Vaapad in and out and how to best utilize it and fight against it. She wouldn't have that same intricate knowledge of Dooku's which could easily explain why she didn't do as well.
now, I'll await you proving your case with a conducting loop against a LS.
The never ending Vapaad argument:
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also, I like to see the proof that a super conducting loop can be achieved against a lightsider.
You're right that the superconducting loop only applies with a Darksider. But question is if the superconducting loop does anything physically, or amp anyone's power.
Or if it's the mental state required by Mace for the Darkness of his opponent to flow through him without effecting him.
Vapaad does after all operate on the penumbra of the Dark side, which allows Mace to go all out and enjoy the thrill of the fight, but also puts him at risk of swaying to the dark side himself. More so when fighting a Dark sider. That's where the Superconducting loop comes in.
Btw a real superconducting loop just keeps "looping" the same current continuously.