Originally posted by DARTH POWER
People do generally underestimate his speed and agility. But he's definitely not as fast and mobile as his pre-suit self.
Yeah i agree with that, but Vader's definitely not a statue or anything when he fights.
Couldn't find the scans online anywhere, but the dark jedi that i mentioned was named Nax Cirvan
Originally posted by Arhael
Vader is likely faster and his TK feats surpass anything Revan will ever show.
"And, if the situation was right he might be able to collapse a building; it would really depend on his state of mind and the circumstances."
As I have pointed out before in another discussion, we have yet to see the best from Revan in the context of his telekinetic abilities.
Originally posted by Nephthys
'Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade.Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate Forte's and Kulka's strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed.
Toying with the Jedi, he grazed Forte on the left shoulder, then on the right thigh; Kulka, he pierced lightly in the abdomen, then shaved away the flesh on the right side of the Ho'Din's face.
Seeing the two Jedi Knights drop to their knees, wincing in pain, Padawan Klossi Anno broke from where she was helping Jambe and Nam engage the stormtroopers and got to Vader one step ahead of Starstone.
Sidestepping, Vader slashed her across the back, sending her sprawling across the balcony; then he whirled on Forte and Kulka just as they were clambering to their feet and decapitated them. From behind Vader came Jambe and Nam, neither of whom was an experienced fighter and both of whom Vader immediately eliminated from the fight, amputating Jambe's right arm, and Nam's right leg.
To her horror, Starstone realized she was suddenly alone with Vader, who immediately signaled his stormtroopers to leave her to him, and to devote themselves to slaughtering the few Wookiees who remained on the tier.'
Vader takes out 3 Jedi without even engaging them properly. Casually sidestepping and killing one Jedi then taking 2 others out 'immediately.' He's also noted to be fast and agile, enough to toy with his opponents.
I own that book - good book.
I know he was able to take out those Jedi, including Shyrne later on.
It demonstrates well that he's decent enough at least, to take out lower to middle-tier Jedi perhaps, but it doesn't show him moving with enough speed to dispatch the accomplished prodigy that is Revan.
Originally posted by Arhael
You are confusing speed with mobility. Yes, he can't jump around like a monkey. Yes, he can't practice yoga sessions. But nothing prevents him from swinging lightsaber as fast as possible. Weight of his armor is unknown.
265 Lbs.
Originally posted by Arhael
His proestetic hands are not necessarily heavier than real ones. What is known is that his suit is enhanced by Sith sorcery, so it supposed to increase his capabilities, not other way around.
Instead of using durasteel for his leg prosthesis, the medical droids had substituted an inferior alloy, and had failed to inspect the strips that protected the electromotive lines. As a result, the inner lining of the pressurized bodysuit was continually snagging on places where the strips were anchored to knee and ankle joints. Additionally, the tall boots were a poor fit for his artificial feet, whose toes lacked the electrostatic sensitivity of his equally false fingertips. These devices made it even more difficult for him to move with ease, much less with any grace. Raised in the heel, the cumbersome footwear canted him slightly forward, forcing him to move with exaggerated caution lest he stumble or topple over. Worse, they were so heavy that he often felt rooted to the ground, or as if he were moving in high gravity. He even felt that he needed to use the Force to move,[19] though he eventually grew used to it.[9] As a result of his large body and abnormal needs, Vader had to have a custom airspeeder made for him to drive comfortably in.[41]
Originally posted by Arhael
In Luceno's book his speed was said to be faster than anyone but Yoda.He nearly speed blitzed even Marek in rage:
The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain.
I haven't heard a lot about Marek being an exceptional duelist - just that he's good with the Force and needs the Force to take people in duels.
Originally posted by Arhael
Lumiya is more of a machine than Vader and her potential doesn't compare to Chosen One, nor was her costume enhanced with any sorcery. Yet, it didn't prevent her to be fast enough even for Luke.
Lumiya doesn't wear heavy armor like Vader, and her prosthetics haven't been noted to be heavy like Vader's.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Indeed. The novels speak to Vader and Lumiya's total Force powers being diminished by their injuries, but not their speed.
Apparently Vader's speed is diminished, thanks to the iron-lung he walks around in, but Lumiya doesn't have the same situation as he does, so her speed and mobility doesn't suffer.
I haven't heard a lot about Marek being an exceptional duelist - just that he's good with the Force and needs the Force to take people in duels.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Apparently Vader's speed is diminished, thanks to the iron-lung he walks around in, but Lumiya doesn't have the same situation as he does, so her speed and mobility doesn't suffer.
Apart from overwhelming amount of speed feats there is even easier comparison. Anakin and Kenobi matched in speed. Logically Vader would be slower than Kenobi. Yet, they confront again and Vader chooses to fight with lightsaber to demonstrate how he improved since their last encounter.
"Last time I was nothing but the learner and now I am the Master".
You can make countless logical arguments, they will mean nothing without proofs. Indeed his suit limits him from certain things. He lacks mobility, yet, his original style doesn't rely on it. He can't dodge as good as before but with Makashi which allows swinging saber around more freely and immense strength that comes with suit he can afford to block all the attacks. He overcame his limitations and became as deadly as he ever was.
Originally posted by Arhael
There is only one book with him from his own perspective, of couse you wouldn't hear.
Marek trained on droids like Maul as well as sparred with Vader from childhood. He drilled saber skill as much as Force and book shows that well. In all fights he demonstrated flawless saber skill trying to outwit his opponets by changing styles as well as recognizing their styles and tactics. There is no implication whatsoever that he lacks saber skill or speed in any way.
That's not what I hear all over this place. 😛
Originally posted by Arhael
Vader uses Force to overcome his limitations. Yoda has far more limitations, yet, it didn't prevent him from going toe to toe with most powerful Sith in sabers.
And Yoda didn't don armor and prosthetics that weighs hundreds of pounds.
Vader uses the Force to compensate with his ruined-physicality - not overcome it.
Your point fails, miserably.
Originally posted by Arhael
Apart from overwhelming amount of speed feats there is even easier comparison. Anakin and Kenobi matched in speed. Logically Vader would be slower than Kenobi. Yet, they confront again and Vader chooses to fight with lightsaber to demonstrate how he improved since their last encounter."Last time I was nothing but the learner and now I am the Master".
And?
Kenobi was slower around that time as well - and from what I understand, could have beaten Vader.
Vader would be easily out-paced by a younger Kenobi.
Originally posted by Arhael
You can make countless logical arguments, they will mean nothing without proofs.
You mean the "proofs", I already gave? 😛
I already gave them, and they are valid, so what your saying is that my arguments mean a lot.
Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed his suit limits him from certain things. He lacks mobility, yet, his original style doesn't rely on it. He can't dodge as good as before but with Makashi which allows swinging saber around more freely and immense strength that comes with suit he can afford to block all the attacks. He overcame his limitations and became as deadly as he ever was.
With the Force - not with a lightsaber.
Originally posted by Rookwood
That's not what I hear all over this place. 😛
You should ask all those people to provide proof.
In TFUI Galen would switch between Soresu and Juyo. He had a very high level of skill in both. And practices against Proxy imitating different Jedi using different forms, all of which he can recognize immediately and knows exactly how to deal with each form.
In TFUII he says he's inherited Ataro and Niman mastery from the original Galen.
So yeah, he was pretty damn accomplished in the use of Jedi fencing forms.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You should ask all those people to provide proof.In TFUI Galen would switch between Soresu and Juyo. He had a very high level of skill in both. And practices against Proxy imitating different Jedi using different forms, all of which he can recognize immediately and knows exactly how to deal with each form.
In TFUII he says he's inherited Ataro and Niman mastery from the original Galen.
So yeah, he was pretty damn accomplished in the use of Jedi fencing forms.
I've heard mostly around 'ere that Marek needs to utilize the Force to dispatch his opponents in duels, and that he can't do it purely with swordsmanship.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Hasn't he needed the Force to take out all of his opponents, according to Canon cutscenes, etc?
The comic shows him taking them out with the Force. But the novel has him outduelling pretty much everyone. Only Shaak Ti got past his Saber defenses in the novel, and that was Via a suicide move. Oh and he became more powerful after that fight anyway.
His Soresu is clearly at a high level. And he switches anytime to a ferocious Juyo attack.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Hasn't he needed the Force to take out all of his opponents, according to Canon cutscenes, etc?
He never 'needed' to do anything. That he beat them with the Force only shows that he could beat them with the Force, not that he was unable to do so in sabers. He beat Vader in sabers.