Maul Brothers vs. Bane

Originally posted by Nephthys
The use of the word 'compete' seems to be pretty clear.

This will be good.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If you can match him in a certain aspect then you can by definition compete with him, even if only in that aspect.

Yeah except he wasn't talking about competition in different aspects. He was talking about who can fight the Emperor. That's it. When Palpatine can obviously snap Obi-Wan's neck anytime he likes, then he's obviously got no hope of competing against him in an all-out combat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're making the same mistake of differentiating lightsaber and force and all-out combat. Such a distinction exists only on this forum. When Lucas said that he was indeed talking about all-out combat. Which is a combination of the Force and lightaber skills. Thus, both aspects fall under the quote, since there is no distinction.

This is hilarious. Because your the one claiming he was referring to every single form of individual combat.

Your right, Lucas WASN'T making the distinction between Sabers and the Force. He put them both together, ergo I'm right. If Obi-Wan can't compete due to being hopelessly outmatched in the Force then he wouldn't fall in that category of those who can compete with Palpatine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Further damning is that the fight on which he was commenting was strictly a lightsaber fight.

Not really. Just because those Jedi were outmatched in Lightsaber combat doesn't mean that's the exact reason Obi-Wan or Anakin would be outmatched. Because like your trying to point out yourself he's referring to an all-out combat.

In fact we already know how hopelessly outmatched those 3 would be in Saber combat by Opress, Kenobi, Maul and a guy named- Skywalker. You know the guy who stomped Count frigging Dooku in Saber combat??

Originally posted by Nephthys
But then, you're the man who can't grasp the simple meaning of 'his position of strength never wavering.' So I can't expect much from you.

Like you have correctly pointed out, all these quotes are referring to the All Out combat. Sidious was sufficiently defending himself in the Saber fight while dominating the brothers with his superior force powers.

And this coming from a guy whose trying to make his own canon in the form of "Sidious was holding back because I'm too butthurt to accept the fight that Maul put up."

Try to use your brain for once on this. If Obi-Wan can give Sidious a good Lightsaber fight, but is so hopelessly outmatched in the Force to the extent where Sidious can snap his neck anytime he likes with casual ease, then do you honestly think Lucas would have included Obi-Wan in that quote with Yoda and Mace?

Think about it!

Originally posted by Nephthys
The use of the word 'compete' seems to be pretty clear. If you can match him in a certain aspect then you can by definition compete with him, even if only in that aspect. You're making the same mistake of differentiating lightsaber and force and all-out combat. Such a distinction exists only on this forum. When Lucas said that he was indeed talking about all-out combat. Which is a combination of the Force and lightaber skills. Thus, both aspects fall under the quote, since there is no distinction. Further damning is that the fight on which he was commenting was strictly a lightsaber fight.

Seriously man, that guy is creeping me out.

Take off your pants.

...... I don't wanna I'm scared.

I like it when you're scared.

do no want

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No the burden of proof is on you to prove he was holding back. And it's for you to prove that he "needed" him alive so desperately and would not at all be willing to kill him considering the official sit flat out says he saw Maul as "a rival to be destroyed."

The rival was destroyed, as Tempest said. Maul was no longer a rival after Palpatine beat his ass and captured him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He urgently left his office for that reason, and was risking his identity even being there.

And yet he went anyways, right? He resorted to a saber duel when he clearly could have ended it a lot sooner with the force, considering they were helpless when he had them plattered to the wall (Palpatine also neglected the use of FL at the beginning, which is a more lethal attack, considering he was capable of knocking Yoda unconscious with a single blast). He also took his time torturing Maul at the end. All that among tons of other things seem to suggest that Palpatine didn't feel he was risking his identity, or that he was in a hurry to finish them.

But, by all means, continue to grasp at more straws, DP.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Like when? Are you still going on about that pause when Opress was dying? That wasn't an opportunity to kill Maul, it was an opportunity to attack him. And guess what? .

Yes that's one of the times. When Sidious gave Maul a speech about how he has been replaced, then jumped down and allowed Maul to ignite his sabers before he ignited his, and then allowed Maul to attack him first. Yes clearly Sidious was trying to kill Maul as quick as possible, which is why he gave Maul time to watch his brother die, without taking advantage of that moment. That also explains why he was playing around with Savage, giving Maul time to recover from the force push.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes he was. All the flips and spins and speed was put in there to show Sidious fighting at his best. Filoni confirms they took his fighting style from ROTS and really expanded on it t give us an awesome duel.

Filoni gave an out of universe explanation as to why they had Sidious doing flips and spins: to show that he was capable of such stunts, not that he needed to. If we took Filoni's statement as an omniscient in universe explanation, it would suggest that Sidious was fighting the brothers harder than he was fighting Mace or Yoda. Hmm, so perhaps it was Yoda and Mace he was holding back against, considering he didn't pull all those fancy stunts with them (except one flip during his fight with Windu).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So what are you saying? He was holding back, but was trying to convince Maul that he wasn't holding back?!

I'm saying Sidious wasn't actually trying to kill Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really is that what your going with? That the whole thing was just one big cocky dance?

Yep, basically.

Alot of the shit Palpatine was doing was unnecessary.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He would only do that if he was testing Maul.

He would do that if he wasn't trying to kill Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And if you knew anything about Sith then you would know that even when they test, it's no joke. They're perfectly willing to kill.

Willing to kill or injure is different than actually trying your hardest to kill. Unless your suggesting that a master is unable to kill his apprentice.

Palpatine wasn't using his full speed on Maul, he was using just enough speed that Maul was able to counter or evade. That's what you call holding back. If you want to argue against that, then you better apply the same standard when discussing Maul vs. Vizla. There were plenty of times Maul slashed at Vizla with saber strikes that could have killed Vizla had he not dodged them. So would you suggest that Maul was trying his hardest to kill Vizla?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni has confirmed it was meant to be the best Lightsaber duel they've ever done. It wasn't meant to just be some cocky dance.

Maul vs Vizla was a runner-up for best duels, so does that mean Maul was fighting his absolute hardest? You're using a completely different standard for that fight, and making excuses as to why Maul was clearly struggling against the mandalorian. However, when it comes to Sidious, who wasn't even struggling against the brothers, you expect everyone to accept the fight that was given, lecturing that Sidious not doing something means that he couldn't. Well, why are you not using this same silly logic when it comes to Maul? Since Maul didn't use the force on Vizla, does it mean that he couldn't? I don't see how it would have been considered cheating, seeing how Vizla was using grenades, blasters, a flame-thrower, ropes, and darts. Obviously it wasn't meant to be a strict saber duel. And since Maul didn't speed blitz Vizla in saber combat, does it mean that he couldn't? I mean, someone who supposedly has almost equal speed to a sith lord who can blitz 3 force-using swordmasters in seconds, should have at least been able to take out a non-force-user in at least a couple of blows, right? And before you say that Maul didn't use the force for inhanced speed and reflexes, just remember, the novel says he did.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except Lucas said nothing about Sabers. He's not a forum member whose breaking up Sabers, Force and All Out for us. He's just talking All-Out.

Umm, yes, Lucas was talking about sabers. Sidious didn't take Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto out with the force, he took them out with his saber alone. Lucas's explanation as to why the 3 council members were easily dispatched by Sidious in a saber duel was: "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete." Lucas was discussing Palpatine's saber duel with the council members and why they fell so easily to Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Since the fight wasn't an "all-out" fight, Lucas couldn't have been talking about an "all-out" fight.

Are there anymore straws for you to grasp at? It's fun watching you grasp at straws. Idk why. lol

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The rival was destroyed, as Tempest said. Maul was no longer a rival after Palpatine beat his ass and captured him.

Yes and that was his priority for going there. To destroy his rival. Keeping him alive was hardly a priority. It was a preference (so far as we know).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And yet he went anyways, right? He resorted to a saber duel when he clearly could have ended it a lot sooner with the force, considering they were helpless when he had them plattered to the wall (Palpatine also neglected the use of FL at the beginning, which is a more lethal attack, considering he was capable of knocking Yoda unconscious with a single blast).

Yes and what did he do after knocking out Yoda? He took his time, thinking this defeat is a sure thing. He didn't pursue the attack. Does that mean he was holding back the whole fight against Yoda?

At least Yoda was knocked out and we know he could have been killed if Sidious jumped him then and there. You can't promise the same with the brothers. Could he have snapped their necks there and then? Possibly but it's down to speculation. I doubt it would be that easy considering neither of them is exactly weak in the force.

Yes he could have used Lightning, and it would have hurt them more. But considering there was 2 of them he would have been shooting them with 1 hand each. Opress has already shown he can take multiple full blasts from Dooku, and in the end all it did was power him up.

And let's not pretend that you can guarantee it wouldn't cost Sidious anything in energy/reserves to do all that.

Point is he had Yoda knocked out. And he didn't pursue the attack. The brothers were still fully conscious and not yet defeated. And one of them is a physical beast. So the fact that he didn't pursue that particular attack could be considered strange, but is by no means proof of anything.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He also took his time torturing Maul at the end. All that among tons of other things seem to suggest that Palpatine didn't feel he was risking his identity, or that he was in a hurry to finish them.

How much time did he take torturing Maul at the end? We saw a few seconds of it. If he's keeping Maul alive of course he's going to batter him into submission before he leaves. Besides he has Death Watch's leader at his mercy. So he's not really in much danger at that point.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes that's one of the times. When Sidious gave Maul a speech about how he has been replaced, then jumped down and allowed Maul to ignite his sabers before he ignited his, and then allowed Maul to attack him first. Yes clearly Sidious was trying to kill Maul as quick as possible, which is why he gave Maul time to watch his brother die, without taking advantage of that moment. That also explains why he was playing around with Savage, giving Maul time to recover from the force push.

Oh boy, you like Tempest like making up your own reasons and expect them to be accepted as canon.

Firstly we see Sidious is visually looking exhausted before his one on one with Opress. Add that to Filoni's statements on the matter and we know as a fact the fight Opress put up was completely legitimate.

Secondly considering he did show signs of fatigue and then had a one on one with Opress, it's very easy to imagine Palpatine wouldn't have minded a time out at all.

And it again means nothing considering the pause he took with Yoda. Did he not want Yoda dead? Was he holding back when Yoda got back up and started fighting him?

And your making no sense. Your claiming he gave Maul a time out because he didn't want to kill him. And yet he enagaged Maul in abttle again? How does that make sense at all. It doesn't.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Filoni gave an out of universe explanation as to why they had Sidious doing flips and spins: to show that he was capable of such stunts, not that he needed to. If we took Filoni's statement as an omniscient in universe explanation, it would suggest that Sidious was fighting the brothers harder than he was fighting Mace or Yoda. Hmm, so perhaps it was Yoda and Mace he was holding back against, considering he didn't pull all those fancy stunts with them (except one flip during his fight with Windu).

No but he clearly didn't mean for him to be holding back. The statement makes it clear he wanted to show Sidious fighting at his best.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Yep, basically.

Alot of the shit Palpatine was doing was unnecessary..

facepalm

It's always been like that in SW. Especially in the prequels. We get pointless acrobatics. But it's not for us to decide, "Oh ok, LOL that seems pointless, so he must be holding back."

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He would do that if he wasn't trying to kill Maul.

So why was he fighting him? He wasn't testing him, and he wasn't trying to kill him, and he LOL could have finished it any time, so what was the point in it all. Your not making any sense.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

If you want to argue against that, then you better apply the same standard when discussing Maul vs. Vizla. There were plenty of times Maul slashed at Vizla with saber strikes that could have killed Vizla had he not dodged them. So would you suggest that Maul was trying his hardest to kill Vizla?

Maul vs Vizla was a runner-up for best duels, so does that mean Maul was fighting his absolute hardest? You're using a completely different standard for that fight, and making excuses as to why Maul was clearly struggling against the mandalorian. However, when it comes to Sidious, who wasn't even struggling against the brothers, you expect everyone to accept the fight that was given, lecturing that Sidious not doing something means that he couldn't. Well, why are you not using this same silly logic when it comes to Maul? Since Maul didn't use the force on Vizla, does it mean that he couldn't? I don't see how it would have been considered cheating, seeing how Vizla was using grenades, blasters, a flame-thrower, ropes, and darts. Obviously it wasn't meant to be a strict saber duel. And since Maul didn't speed blitz Vizla in saber combat, does it mean that he couldn't?

This is actually one of your better points and I give you credit for using proper references from the CW series to make your point.

Now aside from that Jango Fett went toe to toe with Kenobi in a punch up in AOTC, where his Jedi speed didn't seem to help, and aside from the fact that the fight involved more than just a Saber duel with the flying and blaster shooting and dart/flame throwing, and aside from the fact that the novel states Opress is smiling at how hopelssly outmatched Viszla is..

Aside from all those facts there is one HUGE difference in the Maul vs Viszla and Sidious vs Maul fights.

We OUTRIGHT KNOW the whole point of the Viszla fight before the fight even began! It was to put on a show in front of Viszla's warriors to win them over!

And we know from the fight Maul didn't even use the Force on him even once. And we see just seconds/moments earlier how casually even Opress Chokes and levitates Deathwatch warriors with the Force.

Whilst in the Sidious case:

1)Who was he putting on a show for?
2) Where was it outright stated his reason for being there was to put on a show or to prove anything, or to in anyone over?
3)Which powers did he hold back on? He went there wiedling 2 Sabers (we know from Obi-Wan's case that really helps when taking on 2 opponents), using all his acrobatics, speed and Force attacks.

Point is S66 this idea of Sidious holding back has no canon backing to it at all. Me and others have provided plenty of proof that all sources on the subject are actually suggesting the opposite.

So if I were you I would think long and hard about that and then decide whose really grasping for straws here.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Umm, yes, Lucas was talking about sabers. Sidious didn't take Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto out with the force, he took them out with his saber alone. Lucas's explanation as to why the 3 council members were easily dispatched by Sidious in a [b]saber duel was: "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete." Lucas was discussing Palpatine's saber duel with the council members and why they fell so easily to Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Since the fight wasn't an "all-out" fight, Lucas couldn't have been talking about an "all-out" fight.
lol [/B]

Aside from the fact that this is an old quote and Lucas has contradicted himself many times since then even with the CW series (the whole Maul resurrection being a prime one that completely contradicts his previous quotes on the matter), so it really not being enough on it's own to declare what we see in the CW as being totally wrong, or fake, and must be holding back...

But Aside from that, before you carry on with this grasping accusation, which you lot are really doing with this old quote, I urge you to answer this:

If Skywalker and Kenobi are both individually comparable to Sidious in Saber prowess, but still the 2 of them even combined could not even hope to defeat Sidious because of how hopelessly outmatched they are on Force powers, then do you honestly think Lucas would have included them in the quote saying "You have to be Yoda, Mace, Anakin or Obi-Wan to compete with the Emperor."

Answer this question first and then we will carry on this discussion and decide whose really grasping here.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Seriously man, that guy is creeping me out.

Creeping you out for addressing all your points? facepalm

Seriously man your sounding more and more like Tempest as this thread goes on. It's a shame you've stooped down to his level. You used to be pretty reasonable.

I was talking to Tempest actually. 😬

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was talking to Tempest actually. 😬

Oh.. My bad 😮

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The rival was destroyed, as Tempest said. Maul was no longer a rival after Palpatine beat his ass and captured him.

And yet he went anyways, right? He resorted to a saber duel when he clearly could have ended it a lot sooner with the force, considering they were helpless when he had them plattered to the wall (Palpatine also neglected the use of FL at the beginning, which is a more lethal attack, considering he was capable of knocking Yoda unconscious with a single blast). He also took his time torturing Maul at the end. All that among tons of other things seem to suggest that Palpatine didn't feel he was risking his identity, or that he was in a hurry to finish them.

But, by all means, continue to grasp at more straws, DP.

Yes that's one of the times. When Sidious gave Maul a speech about how he has been replaced, then jumped down and allowed Maul to ignite his sabers before he ignited his, and then allowed Maul to attack him first. Yes clearly Sidious was trying to kill Maul as quick as possible, which is why he gave Maul time to watch his brother die, without taking advantage of that moment. That also explains why he was playing around with Savage, giving Maul time to recover from the force push.

Filoni gave an out of universe explanation as to why they had Sidious doing flips and spins: to show that he was capable of such stunts, not that he needed to. If we took Filoni's statement as an omniscient in universe explanation, it would suggest that Sidious was fighting the brothers harder than he was fighting Mace or Yoda. Hmm, so perhaps it was Yoda and Mace he was holding back against, considering he didn't pull all those fancy stunts with them (except one flip during his fight with Windu).

I'm saying Sidious wasn't actually trying to kill Maul.

Yep, basically.

Alot of the shit Palpatine was doing was unnecessary.

He would do that if he wasn't trying to kill Maul.

Willing to kill or injure is different than actually trying your hardest to kill. Unless your suggesting that a master is unable to kill his apprentice.

Palpatine wasn't using his full speed on Maul, he was using just enough speed that Maul was able to counter or evade. That's what you call holding back. If you want to argue against that, then you better apply the same standard when discussing Maul vs. Vizla. There were plenty of times Maul slashed at Vizla with saber strikes that could have killed Vizla had he not dodged them. So would you suggest that Maul was trying his hardest to kill Vizla?

Maul vs Vizla was a runner-up for best duels, so does that mean Maul was fighting his absolute hardest? You're using a completely different standard for that fight, and making excuses as to why Maul was clearly struggling against the mandalorian. However, when it comes to Sidious, who wasn't even struggling against the brothers, you expect everyone to accept the fight that was given, lecturing that Sidious not doing something means that he couldn't. Well, why are you not using this same silly logic when it comes to Maul? Since Maul didn't use the force on Vizla, does it mean that he couldn't? I don't see how it would have been considered cheating, seeing how Vizla was using grenades, blasters, a flame-thrower, ropes, and darts. Obviously it wasn't meant to be a strict saber duel. And since Maul didn't speed blitz Vizla in saber combat, does it mean that he couldn't? I mean, someone who supposedly has almost equal speed to a sith lord who can blitz 3 force-using swordmasters in seconds, should have at least been able to take out a non-force-user in at least a couple of blows, right? And before you say that Maul didn't use the force for inhanced speed and reflexes, just remember, the novel says he did.

Umm, yes, Lucas was talking about sabers. Sidious didn't take Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto out with the force, he took them out with his saber alone. Lucas's explanation as to why the 3 council members were easily dispatched by Sidious in a [b]saber duel was: "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete." Lucas was discussing Palpatine's saber duel with the council members and why they fell so easily to Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Since the fight wasn't an "all-out" fight, Lucas couldn't have been talking about an "all-out" fight.

Are there anymore straws for you to grasp at? It's fun watching you grasp at straws. Idk why. lol [/B]

YouTube video

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Answer this question first and then we will carry on this discussion

LMAO

No. Just no.

You've reached a whole new low, congratulations.

Your desperate attempts of grasping at straws and double standards is almost comical. You're a silly guy, DP. You defeat yourself.

Seriously, Give up, kid. 😬

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
LMAO

No. Just no.

You've reached a whole new low, congratulations.

Your desperate attempts of grasping at straws and double standards is almost comical. You're a silly guy, DP. You defeat yourself.

Seriously, Give up, kid. 😬

Just answer the question. The point of a debate is to trade logical arguments so both sides can come to a consensus. Telling someone to give up is defeating the purpose of a debate.

If you guys want a Sidious vs. Maul Brothers topic, make it yourselves. Back on topic, considering how well the Maul brothers did against the "most powerful sith" of Bane's order, they could probably defeat Bane through effective teamwork and TK.

Originally posted by Vensai
The point of a debate is to trade logical arguments so both sides can come to a consensus.

I'd say it's fairly apparent that a consensus won't be reached. Each side has its conclusions, supported it exhaustively, and has made it very apparent that the other side is untenable.

This is impasse, not debate.

Impasse was reached long ago, actually...

That's why I don't even bother anymore. No matter what anyone says, it's not going to change absolutely anything.

👆

Originally posted by The_Tempest I find it curious that you neither deny your misrepresentation of the facts or try to defend it. This open dishonesty is disturbing. 😬

This is irrelevant, for a number of reasons:

[list=1]
[*]The statement still applies if Sidious pulled his punches
[*]Performing better than other non-factors doesn't make oneself a factor (cf. Kit Fisto's performance against Sidious with that of Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar)
[*]Dave Filoni, while an authority, is not George Lucas, the authority
[/list]

Somone who disarmed Dooku with single swing for you is non-factor? 🙂

And? Filoni does not override any of Lucas statements by making Opress skilled enough for Sidious to put some effort to kill him.

This is a classic non-sequitur. Obi-Wan's circumstantial performance against the Zabraks does not imply parity with Sidious anymore than Ahsoka's performance against Grievous (who, in turn, performs exceptionally well against Obi-Wan) indicates parity with Sidious.

And again Windu and Yoda's performance was far more circumstantial:
Windu:
"Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.

More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways.

He was fighting for the Republic that he loved".

Yoda:
"When those blades met, it was more than Yoda against Palpatine, more the millennia of Sith against the legions of Jedi; this was the expression of the fundamental conflict of the universe itself.

Light against dark.

Winner take all".

Moreover, it defies Lucas's declaration that one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. As Obi-Wan is neither Mace or Yoda, he therefore cannot be said to compete with the Emperor.

Are you introducing a random quote from the EU in an attempt to overrule a specific declaration by the highest authority in the franchise? 😬

Where does the quote reference "pure saber combat"? 😬

YouTube video

:35 mark

Second, he did not get defeated, he just got disarmed. He remained undefeatable as Ventress couldn't do a thing to him. Anakin disarmed Kenobi as well in RotS but Kenobi remained undefeatable.

[quote]This would make pretty cool fanfic, bro.

Anyway, back in the realm of canon, your argument that Obi-Wan is comparable to Sidious is baseless.

And if it was baseless, you wouldn't need to speculate on such things like letting go his Force grip, enjoying himself and stating that he is not going to kill.

Sidious defeated Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto with nary a single direct expression of the Force. In response, George declared that one must be Yoda or Mace to compete with him. The fact that Obi-Wan was alive at the time of both duels and that Lucas is (one assumes) aware of Obi-Wan's existence and yet deliberately excludes him from the list of candidates must mean that Obi-Wan does not qualify.

When you concede the point and apologize for your egregious and liberal use of dishonesty in a (frankly disastrous) attempt to make your case, I will gladly address the rest of your argument.

As of my opinion I said nothing wrong but find what you said is wrong. It's a subjective matter. In other words you are not getting any apologies. And I find it amusing that you addressed only those points, where you are not proven wrong.

Their saber performances are not comparable. Sidious did much better and was far more relaxed than Kenobi was. In comparison, Kenobi was fighting far more aggressively than Sidious, and unlike Sidious, he was fighting for what he thought was his life. Also, unlike Sidious, Kenobi has, on other occasions, had his ass handed to him by both of the brothers individually.

Also, Filoni stated Kenobi being not in the right mindset on first encounter with brothers.In other words his previous performance against brothers is no more relevant than darkside Luke's.

Stop grasping at straws, Arhael. Sidious flat out admits that he didn't plan on killing Maul. If you want to claim that his final decision was a result of changing his mind after he defeated Maul, then the burden of proof is on you. But so far all the evidents are against you, considering how, throughout the fight, Sidious had passed up a number of opportunities to kill Maul.

Filoni says Sidious was enjoying himself. Contextually speaking, Sidious was not fighting his absolute hardest, nor did he find the brothers a threat to him. The fact that you keep comparing Sidious's enjoyment when fighting the brothers to Windu's enjoyment when using vapaad, is another attemp at grasping at straws.

This is where the coordination of speed comes into play when holding back. Sidious attacks Maul with just the right amount of speed that Maul is able to evade. If Sidious was actually trying to kill Maul, then why didn't he when there were plenty of opportunities to?

Lucas's reasoning for why Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto were so easily slaughtered by Sidious blade was: "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete." What's so hard to get about that? Lucas was actually talking about sabers more than anything else. You trying to apply anything else to Lucas's statement, is again, grasping at straws.