Maul Brothers vs. Bane

facepalm

Originally posted by Nephthys
The use of the word 'compete' seems to be pretty clear. If you can match him in a certain aspect then you can by definition compete with him, even if only in that aspect. You're making the same mistake of differentiating lightsaber and force and all-out combat. Such a distinction exists only on this forum. When Lucas said that he was indeed talking about all-out combat. Which is a combination of the Force and lightaber skills. Thus, both aspects fall under the quote, since there is no distinction. Further damning is that the fight on which he was commenting was strictly a lightsaber fight.

But then, you're the man who can't grasp the simple meaning of 'his position of strength never wavering.' So I can't expect much from you.

👆

Try harder, Arhael. 😬

Changing my mind since my previous post, I think Darth Bane might have a good chance at beating the Maul Brothers now. His mastery of force lightning (able to disintegrate opponents) should be able to put down Opress like Dooku did. And Maul's saber abilities probably aren't as good as Bane's seeing as he was able to hold up against a swordsmaster in his era.

Of course, if Bane is wearing Orbalisks, he wins with ease. The Maul Brothers have no force lightning to injure him with and their lightsabers will be of little help against a monster like Bane.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

No. Just no.

Your desperate attempts of grasping at straws and double standards is almost comical. You're a silly guy, DP. You defeat yourself. 😬

You know, he was going to propose to you. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by Vensai
Just answer the question. The point of a debate is to trade logical arguments so both sides can come to a consensus. Telling someone to give up is defeating the purpose of a debate.

If you guys want a Sidious vs. Maul Brothers topic, make it yourselves. Back on topic, considering how well the Maul brothers did against the "most powerful sith" of Bane's order, they could probably defeat Bane through effective teamwork and TK.

👆

IMHO, the fight goes like this:

1. PoD Bane.
He loses. He's not yet in his top shape, both in saber skills and the force. In sabers Kas’im gave him hell. The Zabraks will do as good if not better. Bane’s force push that in effect "brought down" the temple was on Lehon, a Dark Side nexus, so I'm not sure if he can replicate it everywhere. The brothers take the force too.

2. RoT Bane. He wins handily. Not only Bane's saber skills are impressive, the Orbalisks covers most of his body and protects him from any lightsaber damage. Not to mention it also boosts his force abilities. The brothers are screwed.

3. DoE Bane.
Toss-up. Bane’s rain feat is arguably the most impressive lightsaber prowess display, however he was swinging the saber in one motion, as I conceive of it. In a combat situation this will not suffice. On the other hand, he might simply out-speed the Zabraks. When it comes to the force, again, toss-up. Bane’s most powerful attack was on a Dark Side nexus, he has no Orbalisks to amp his TK… yet I just don’t see the Zabraks being beyond Bane in mastery and power in this the force department. Still their TK is impressive, and combined they have a very good chance.
Here I think Bane wins by a hair’s breadth.

Originally posted by axel_jovan

3. DoE Bane.
Toss-up. Bane’s rain feat is arguably the most impressive lightsaber prowess display, however he was swinging the saber in one motion, as I conceive of it. In a combat situation this will not suffice.

We discussed the actual passage in another thread. It makes clear that, one, he wasn't twirling the saber over his head like a majorette, and two, that he was moving such that any drops that the saber didn't strike he actively dodged. This was a full on deluge, and helicoptering a saber wasn't going to be enough.

If all he were doing were spinning it like a fool then the speed alone would not have been worthwhile as a means of judging his capabilities. In the same way when Sidious was surrounded by battle droids and taking fire it was how he acted in order to survive that gave credence to his abilities.

Originally posted by Arhael
Unlike Kenobi, Sidious Force handled Maul in order to take down Opress, not as impressive. And I don't get your "fighting for his life" thing. If Sidious failed to block a single saber attack, he would die like everyone else.

Your argument that Sidious needed to force handle Maul in order to kill Savage is as stupid as me saying: "Obi Wan needed to saber lock with Savage and Maul, with his back up against the wall in order to take Savage down." Are you forgetting that Sidious dropped kicked Savage before he even used the force on Maul? Are you now going to suggest that Sidious needed to drop kick Savage in order to force handle Maul? See where I'm going with this. Your argument is silly, especially when Sidious was clearly tooling them both quite comfortably before he even used the force on Maul.

Even after Maul was knocked unconscious, it's not like Sidious used that opportunity to kill Savage as soon as possible. He was clearly playing around with Savage (evading Savage's blows without feeling the need to activate his sabers; doing unnecessary acrobats, and pulling stunts with his back turned), which in turn was giving Maul time to recover. So it didn't seem like Sidious was too worried about Maul rejoining the fight.

Originally posted by Arhael
And I don't get your "fighting for his life" thing. If Sidious failed to block a single saber attack, he would die like everyone else.

Fighting for ones life is a term used when someone is fighting their absolute hardest, and is far more aggressive than usual.

If anyone was desperately trying to separate the brothers, it was Obi Wan. During most of the fight, Obi Wan was fighting them separately, back and forth. Only a couple of times were they attacking him at once, if I remember correctly (I didn't have DVR at the time, so I don't have that episode recorded, and I don't feel like looking at it on youtube). The brothers also didn't seem as tactful against Obi Wan as they were against Sidious. And Maul's legs were more normal when he fought Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Filoni stated Kenobi being not in the right mindset on first encounter with brothers.In other words his previous performance against brothers is no more relevant than darkside Luke's.

And clearly Maul was not fully accustomed to his new legs; he was clumsy with them, and hadn't even been in a duel in decades. Somehow I see that as more of a disadvantage than Kenobi not being in the right mindset.

Originally posted by Arhael
The only possible opportunity was right at beginning, which is speculative, if it was opportunity at all.

No matter how much you want to complain about it and call it speculation, Sidious clearly did not use his force powers to its fullest extent, not even close. They were clearly struggling and were helpless against Sidious TK, while Sidious showed no signs of effort. They were only freed from Sidious's grip after Sidious decided to free them. And as I said earlier, Sidious also neglected the use of force lightning--an attack that he is able to render Yoda unconscious with. None of the brothers have displayed the ability to absorb lightning with their hands, and seeing how Sidious was able to rip Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands with a burst, I fail to see how the brothers lightsabers would help them that much, considering that Yoda's force enhanced physical strength seems to be greater than theirs.

Originally posted by Arhael
When he allowed Maul to grieve for brother, it was not an opportunity at all as Maul was not defenceless.

It was an opportunity to press an advantage. Why wasn't it? Maul had his back turned, and was focused on Savage.

Originally posted by Arhael
Grasping at straws? Sidious grins and laughs during lightsaber fight with Yoda, which proves you wrong as well as confirms that you are the one grasping at straws.

Please stop comparing them to Yoda. Tempest already addressed this argument. Yoda overpowered Sidious in saber locks, and managed to disarm him (according to the script). During their saber clash, Sidious showed more signs of struggle, irritation and worry more than anything else. Enjoyment is hardly the word I would use to describe Sidious attitude during that whole fight.

Why are you missing Filoni's implication?

Originally posted by Arhael
LOL, no. What contradiction you talk about? Sidious fights at exactly the same speed as in film.

No, he wasn't. 😬

I know you're not a fan of Sidious's force speed, but he did blitz two force-using saber masters before they were able to react, and another seconds later, and then proceeded to force Windu back.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
In the inner recesses of his private office, the Jedi confronted the Chancellor. Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side flow through him. It granted him unnatural dexterity and speed—enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back

Tempest already gave you this source, and your argument for it was, once again, silly. It took both speed and dexerity to kill three masters and force the mighty Windu back. Killing those masters and forcing Windu back are not described for us as isolated events, and the source should not have to connect the dots for us to know that it was speed alone that allowed Sidious to take out the first two masters, considering that they were unable to even react. However, for Sidious to kill the masters and force Windu back, it would require more than just speed, especially since he was engaging both Windu and Fisto at the same time.

The Complete Visual Dictionary
Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

This source seems to suggest that Sidious's speed was too much for even Windu at the beginning of the fight. It was only after Windu was fully submerged in vapaad that he was able to match Palpatine in speed.

Palpatine managed to blitz two swordmasters before Windu and Fisto were able to launch an attack. He then proceeded to simultaneously cross blades with Windu and Fisto, killing Fisto in less than seconds, and then forced Windu back. And you believe Maul is fast enough to keep Sidious from butchering Savage had Sidious wanted to?

The fact that you consider Obi Wan and Sidious equals in saber combat would suggest that you believe Obi Wan can pull the same stunt Sidious did against Windu and the three masters. If that's the case then Kenobi should have no problems at all with Grievous and Ventress. And before you say, "well Kenobi wasn't trying to kill Ventress", remember, you were the one arguing that just because one isn't trying to kill, doesn't mean they are holding back. So if Obi Wan wasn't holding back, why did Ventress take him out so easily? Also, I'm pretty sure that there were times when Obi Wan and Anakin were striking at Ventress with blows that could have killed her had she not blocked or evaded them, so I guess that means they were trying their hardest to kill her.

Face it, Obi Wan does not compare to Sidious in any form of combat. Sidious did better against the brothers, without fighting them his hardest, and his performance against Windu and the three other council members, is a saber feat far beyond anything Kenobi has done.

Originally posted by Arhael
I don't apply anything to Lucas' statement. His statement simply lacks specifics that would allow to conclude that his saber skill is superior to Kenobi's.

Lucas was giving the specific reason why they were slaughtered so easily by Sidious lightsaber. He was very specific. He was not talking about TK or anything else. They were cut down by Sidious's lightsaber because you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete, and they are neither.

I know I've been saying this for a while now, but this will be my last post on the subject.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
IMHO, the fight goes like this:

1. PoD Bane.
He loses. He's not yet in his top shape, both in saber skills and the force. In sabers Kas’im gave him hell. The Zabraks will do as good if not better. Bane’s force push that in effect "brought down" the temple was on Lehon, a Dark Side nexus, so I'm not sure if he can replicate it everywhere. The brothers take the force too.

2. RoT Bane. He wins handily. Not only Bane's saber skills are impressive, the Orbalisks covers most of his body and protects him from any lightsaber damage. Not to mention it also boosts his force abilities. The brothers are screwed.

3. DoE Bane.
Toss-up. Bane’s rain feat is arguably the most impressive lightsaber prowess display, however he was swinging the saber in one motion, as I conceive of it. In a combat situation this will not suffice. On the other hand, he might simply out-speed the Zabraks. When it comes to the force, again, toss-up. Bane’s most powerful attack was on a Dark Side nexus, he has no Orbalisks to amp his TK… yet I just don’t see the Zabraks being beyond Bane in mastery and power in this the force department. Still their TK is impressive, and combined they have a very good chance.
Here I think Bane wins by a hair’s breadth.

Agreed. Though on number 3, Bane still has his impressive lightning (which can stop Savage) and essense transfer technique that can help him out. Neither brother has ever been able to stop force lightning before.

Oh, and Sidious66, this is Maul Brothers vs. "Bane" not Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Your argument is silly, especially when Sidious was clearly tooling them both quite comfortably before he even used the force on Maul.

Sidious Saber tooling both of them without any force attacks? When did that happen? Your seeing things S66.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Please stop comparing them to Yoda. Tempest already addressed this argument. Yoda overpowered Sidious in saber locks, and managed to disarm him (according to the script). During their saber clash, Sidious showed more signs of struggle, irritation and worry more than anything else. Enjoyment is hardly the word I would use to describe Sidious attitude during that whole fight.

No one's arguing that the Brothers did as well as Yoda.

But the fact that he was Smiling and Laughing at Yoda proves that Sidious smiling and Laughing does not mean Sidious is holding back. Which just destroys your whole argument as 90% of it is based on Sidious's laughter LOL.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why are you missing Filoni's implication?.

This is a laughable accusation when your missing Filoni's Outright statement about even Opress putting up a better fight than Fisto+Tiin+Kolar.

Filoni never once stated or even implied that Sidious was holding back. Not even once.

None of you on this whole thread have provided sufficient evidence of that fact simply because it doesn't exist.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And you believe Maul is fast enough to keep Sidious from butchering Savage had Sidious wanted to?

It already happened. And neither of them got blitzed. Deal with it and move on.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Lucas was giving the specific reason why they were slaughtered so easily by Sidious [b]lightsaber. He was very specific. He was not talking about TK or anything else. They were cut down by Sidious's lightsaber because you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete, and they are neither.

[/B]

This is just hilarious how much your stretching this statement.

In the past you and Gideon both claimed this statement had no context at all. That it was a flat out statement that no one, Jedi or Sith, dead or alive can compete with Sidious except Yoda or Mace.

And now suddenly you and Tempest claim that it has a very specific context applying to Saber fighting.

Lucas never once mentioned Sabers. He's not a forum member whose splitting combat into Sabers, Force and All-Out. The only person in the Making of ROTS who specifically talked about Saber only combat was Nick Gillard. And he put Skywalker on the same level as Mace, Sidious and Yoda.

And to use an old quote to prove that all the new canon we see is not right and must be out of context is grasping beyond belief.

Like I said either answer my question on the subject or put a sock in it:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

If Skywalker and Kenobi are both individually comparable to Sidious in Saber prowess, but still the 2 of them even combined could not even hope to defeat Sidious because of how hopelessly outmatched they are on Force powers, then do you honestly think Lucas would have included them in the quote saying "You have to be Yoda, Mace, Anakin or Obi-Wan to compete with the Emperor."

Originally posted by Vensai
Agreed. Though on number 3, Bane still has his impressive lightning (which can stop Savage) and essense transfer technique that can help him out

Well Dooku's Lightning didn't actually stop Opress. It just held him off. And in the end the pain of it just powered him up.

.

Originally posted by Vensai
Neither brother has ever been able to stop force lightning before.

Maul resisted Mighella's FL. Not that it's comparable. But the reasonable assumption is if AOTC Kenobi can stop FL with his Lightsaber, then someone of Maul's caliber should be able to do the same.

Originally posted by Vensai
Oh, and Sidious66, this is Maul Brothers vs. "Bane" not Sidious.

The argument is relevant. Because he's claiming Sidious was holding back and not even trying. Which would leave the Bothers pretty featless when it comes to comparing them to Bane.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well Dooku's Lightning didn't actually stop Opress. It just held him off. And in the end the pain of it just powered him up.

Bane's lightning is more powerful. Even if Savage is durable enough not to get disintegrated by it, he will at the least die.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
We discussed the actual passage in another thread. It makes clear that, one, he wasn't twirling the saber over his head like a majorette, and two, that he was moving such that any drops that the saber didn't strike he actively dodged. This was a full on deluge, and helicoptering a saber wasn't going to be enough.

Originally posted by Vensai
Agreed. Though on number 3, Bane still has his impressive lightning (which can stop Savage) and essense transfer technique that can help him out. Neither brother has ever been able to stop force lightning before.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane's lightning is more powerful. Even if Savage is durable enough not to get disintegrated by it, he will at the least die.

Only by like, a single orbalisk.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66 Your argument that Sidious needed to force handle Maul in order to kill Savage is as stupid as me saying: "Obi Wan needed to saber lock with Savage and Maul, with his back up against the wall in order to take Savage down." Are you forgetting that Sidious dropped kicked Savage before he even used the force on Maul?

Even after Maul was knocked unconscious, it's not like Sidious used that opportunity to kill Savage as soon as possible. He was clearly playing around with Savage (evading Savage's blows without feeling the need to activate his sabers; doing unnecessary acrobats, and pulling stunts with his back turned), which in turn was giving Maul time to recover. So it didn't seem like Sidious was too worried about Maul rejoining the fight.

Yes, I remember that kick. It gave Sidious opportunity to Force handle Maul, don't see how he would do that with Opress on his back. As per book he used every slightest sleep in their defence to his advantage.

You see it as playing around with Opress, I see it as Dun Moch used to cripple his confidence and provoke for silly move and Sidious maybe simply didn't expect Maul to wake up so soon.

Fighting for ones life is a term used when someone is fighting their absolute hardest, and is far more aggressive than usual.

The brothers also didn't seem as tactful against Obi Wan as they were against Sidious. And Maul's legs were more normal when he fought Sidious.

And clearly Maul was not fully accustomed to his new legs; he was clumsy with them, and hadn't even been in a duel in decades. Somehow I see that as more of a disadvantage than Kenobi not being in the right mindset.

Your point about not being in combat for over decade holds no weight either because again he stomped Opress, while other well-practiced characters including Dooku got embarassingly disarmed.

No matter how much you want to complain about it and call it speculation, Sidious clearly did not use his force powers to its fullest extent, not even close. They were clearly struggling and were helpless against Sidious TK, while Sidious showed no signs of effort. They were only freed from Sidious's grip after Sidious decided to free them. And as I said earlier, Sidious also neglected the use of force lightning--an attack that he is able to render Yoda unconscious with. None of the brothers have displayed the ability to absorb lightning with their hands, and seeing how Sidious was able to rip Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands with a burst, I fail to see how the brothers lightsabers would help them that much, considering that Yoda's force enhanced physical strength seems to be greater than theirs.

Also, if Yoda got unconscious, it doesn't mean that other characters will. Windu, Marek, Luke, Kota and even Leia didn't get unconscious. Yoda has absorb ability but I doubt that he is as resistant to pain and electric shock like either brother, especially considering how old and weak his body is.

And Yoda getting disarmed by lightning doesn't mean other characters will. Yoda is nowhere as strong as other characters.
And before you bring up silly argument with saber lock I will point out that Yoda blocked attack close to hilt, while Sidious used tip of his lightsaber. Physics clearly favor Yoda and that's what compensates for his lack of strength. That's why he uses shorter lightaber as well.

It was an opportunity to press an advantage. Why wasn't it? Maul had his back turned, and was focused on Savage.

Please stop comparing them to Yoda. Tempest already addressed this argument. Yoda overpowered Sidious in saber locks, and managed to disarm him (according to the script). During their saber clash, Sidious showed more signs of struggle, irritation and worry more than anything else. Enjoyment is hardly the word I would use to describe Sidious attitude during that whole fight.

Why are you missing Filoni's implication?

No, he wasn't. 😬

I know you're not a fan of Sidious's force speed, but he did blitz two force-using saber masters before they were able to react, and another seconds later, and then proceeded to force Windu back.

Tempest already gave you this source, and your argument for it was, once again, silly.

I responded something silly to Tempest? If you make references to past, then be specific. All I remember is how you kept making dumb statement of how Sidious killed Masters with "sheer speed" and how nicely this quote proved you wrong.

This source seems to suggest that Sidious's speed was too much for even Windu at the beginning of the fight. It was only after Windu was fully submerged in vapaad that he was able to match Palpatine in speed.

Palpatine managed to blitz two swordmasters before Windu and Fisto were able to launch an attack. He then proceeded to simultaneously cross blades with Windu and Fisto, killing Fisto in less than seconds, and then forced Windu back. And you believe Maul is fast enough to keep Sidious from butchering Savage had Sidious wanted to?

The fact that you consider Obi Wan and Sidious equals in saber combat would suggest that you believe Obi Wan can pull the same stunt Sidious did against Windu and the three masters.

If that's the case then Kenobi should have no problems at all with Grievous and Ventress. And before you say, "well Kenobi wasn't trying to kill Ventress", remember, you were the one arguing that just because one isn't trying to kill, doesn't mean they are holding back. So if Obi Wan wasn't holding back, why did Ventress take him out so easily? Also, I'm pretty sure that there were times when Obi Wan and Anakin were striking at Ventress with blows that could have killed her had she not blocked or evaded them, so I guess that means they were trying their hardest to kill her.

And, yes, they tried their best to defeat her. It's just Anakin's performance is not as good, when he is not angry and Kenobi's Soresu lacks offensive power.

And trere is nothing wrong with the fact that she managed to kick him. Grievous kicked him, Maul kicked him, Anakin even disarmed him with kick. Even Sidious got hit by both brothers. There is nothing wrong with a character missing a physical strike.

Face it, Obi Wan does not compare to Sidious in any form of combat. Sidious did better against the brothers, without fighting them his hardest, and his performance against Windu and the three other council members, is a saber feat far beyond anything Kenobi has done.

Also, Sidious' saber feat against Masters is far beyond anything Yoda, Windu and even Luke have ever done, which makes your statement kind of pointless.

Lucas was giving the specific reason why they were slaughtered so easily by Sidious lightsaber. He was very specific. He was not talking about TK or anything else. They were cut down by Sidious's lightsaber because you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete, and they are neither.

I know I've been saying this for a while now, but this will be my last post on the subject.

Anyway, nice that it is your last post. 😉

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Nephthys
Originally posted by Nephthys
The use of the word 'compete' seems to be pretty clear. If you can match him in a certain aspect then you can by definition compete with him, even if only in that aspect. You're making the same mistake of differentiating lightsaber and force and all-out combat. Such a distinction exists only on this forum. When Lucas said that he was indeed talking about all-out combat. Which is a combination of the Force and lightaber skills. Thus, both aspects fall under the quote, since there is no distinction. Further damning is that the fight on which he was commenting was strictly a lightsaber fight.

But then, you're the man who can't grasp the simple meaning of 'his position of strength never wavering.' So I can't expect much from you.

👆

Try harder, Arhael. 😬

Lucas is always contradicting himself playing with technicalities: Mr. "Oh I said I WILL NEVER MAKE AN EPISODE 7,8 and 9. But Technically I never said the words: NO ONE ELSE COULD."

He's even outright contradicted his old quotes with newer canon: "I wanted to kill Maul like that to show HE'S NOT COMING BACK.."

So forget what "It seemed like" he meant regarding the context. If he didn't say "In Saber Prowess" you can't hold him to that.

And newer canon clearly trumps all old quotes anyway. Anakin overpowering the Son and Daughter shows he obviously does have it in him to compete with Sidious.

I'm not sure about this Anakin's feat..after all it was on Mortis, a very special place when it comes to the Force. He might not be able to access his full potential anywhere else.
I'd say it's similar case like with Force nexuses.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I'm not sure about this Anakin's feat..after all it was on Mortis, a very special place when it comes to the Force. He might not be able to access his full potential anywhere else.
I'd say it's similar case like with Force nexuses.

Well, given that Anakin was unable to best Dooku the three times they clashed post-Mortis, we can either conclude that the Count is more powerful than the Ones or that this is not power that Anakin can access at any given time.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I'm not sure about this Anakin's feat..after all it was on Mortis, a very special place when it comes to the Force. He might not be able to access his full potential anywhere else.
I'd say it's similar case like with Force nexuses.

The Son and Duaghter also benfitted from being on the Force Nexus. (If it's just about being on a Force Nexus then there are other places strong in the Force where Anakin should be able to repeat the feat.)

But it clearly wasn't a consistent showing. In fact in the very same arc in the very same place he wasn't a match for the Son alone.

However it shows the potential to be that powerful and compete on that level is in him and is accessible as early as Mid-Clone Wars.

As for his consistent showings even that seemed to have improved after Mortis. Pre Mortis he gets force choked by Ventress and doesn't seem to be able to handle hers or Opress's TK any better than Kenobi can.

Post-Mortis he's tanked all Dooku's Force attacks and overpowered him in Sabers. So it's pretty unlikely that by ROTS he can't compete with Sidious in any way, any place whatsoever. Thus the quote of needing to be Mace or Yoda is no longer a flat out statement in any condition and without context.

Originally posted by Arhael
Your stupid comparison doesn't make my argument any absurd.

Your argument makes your argument absurb.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, I remember that kick. It gave Sidious opportunity to Force handle Maul, don't see how he would do that with Opress on his back.

How did I know? lol

I see how. Sidious is a lot faster than them, which is how he blocked all their attacks, and put Savage on his ass mid-duel. It's more time consuming to do the unnecessary flip kick he did then to simply force push Maul, so if Maul was unable to prevent Sidious from drop kicking Savage, what makes you think Savage is fast enough to prevent Sidious was force pushing Maul? Your entire argument is desperate. You act as if Sidious's defenses were overloaded and he was desperate to separate the brothers. Sidious was blocking and evading all of their attacks while landing most of his, and there is nothing to suggest it was a struggle for him. In fact, Sidious relaxation, his grins & smiles, and Filoni's statement that he was enjoying himself, all seem to suggest otherwise. So your argument that Sidious needed to separate them in order to defeat them has no basis. Just because something plays out a certain way, does not mean it has to.

Originally posted by Arhael
You see it as playing around with Opress, I see it as Dun Moch used to cripple his confidence

Yes, because Savage is just that good. Sidious needed to cripple his confidence in order to win. 🙄

Originally posted by Arhael
Your defenition makes no sense. Kenobi's Jarkaj being more aggressive means just that because aggressiveness is a matter of style/tactic.

What?

Originally posted by Arhael
Kenobi fought for his life against Anakin, yet, his style was almost pure defence.

Anakin was faster and stronger than Obi Wan, so he had no other choice but to fight defensively, and, unlike the the brothers, Anakin was trying to kill Obi Wan, not restrain him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku's style never looks very aggressive, even against Yoda his moves were smooth and he seemed relaxed.

We must have watched a different fight. Compared to his previous fights with Obi Wan and Anakin, Dooku did not seem relaxed when facing Yoda. The novel even say Yoda had Dooku "skipping back desperately". Hell, Dooku wasn't even relaxed when he fought Yoda on Vjun, despite having his powers amped; he was even desribed as sweating in streams.

Originally posted by Arhael
And clearly your claim is baseless. He tooled Kenobi with those legs in first fight.

Yep, which is very impressive. He was visually clumsy, and hadn't even had the time to adapt to his legs, and yet he still tooled Kenobi.

Originally posted by Arhael
And he stomped Opress with those legs.

He did not even require much foot work when he defeated Opress, except for a few casual steps back. When he used his leg to stomp Opress to the ground, he already had Opress at a disadvantageous position.

Originally posted by Arhael
Legs made with Talzin magic are far better than inferior and Forceless proestetics. Sad Maul didn't have this advantage against Sidious.

You have absolutely no proof for this, do you? He seemed far more comfortable with his newer legs, and seemed to have instantly adapted to them, unlike with his bolky, awkward legs Tazlin provided him. Just because they are made with magic, doesn't mean he was more comfortable with them. The visual evidents seem to suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by Arhael
Your point about not being in combat for over decade holds no weight either because again he stomped Opress, while other well-practiced characters including Dooku got embarassingly disarmed.

He disarmed Dooku though sheer strength, not skill. Stop grasping, Arhael.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sidious didn't use Force attacks against Windu and Masters. Sidious didn't use Force attacks on Luke either in both saber fights. Not using all Force powers simply doesn't mean he held back on sabers.

Well in Windu's case, there has been arguments made that Sidious may have staged his defeat :http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/87-77247/. But even if you do not agree with that, arguing about something Sidious chose not to do against Mace and the masters, is still not proof that he couldn't against Maul and Savage. Clearly he had an opportunity to kill Savage and Maul at the beginning, but chose not to. You argued that it wasn't an opportunity, and I proved you wrong. Sidious held back on his use of the force, which is something that doesn't help your argument that he was trying his hardest to kill them.

Originally posted by Arhael
YouTube video
2:05-2.13 - grins and laughs during saber fight. Later grins and laughs during Force fight. And LOL at Yoda overpowered in saber lock.

Grinning and laughing during the beginning of his saber clash with Yoda, is your proof that he was struggling against the brothers? Your going to have to do better. Sidious showed signs of struggle against Yoda, and was disarmed by him - something that the brothers could not even hope to do. Again, stop comparing his fight with Yoda to his fight with the brothers. Yoda proved himself, the brothers didn't. Your argument was that Sidious was struggling and fighting his hardest against the brothers, and you have yet to provide any evidents for it (other than a gasp), while myself and others have provided tons of evidents for our claims. The best you can do is "well nuh uh 'cause he did this and that with Yoda and Windu" or "he didn't do this and that with Luke and Windu"

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, he was, visual speed is exactly the same.

Actually, no, it wasn't. His visual speed against Windu and the masters was beyond slow. Once again, you're grasping at straws.

Originally posted by Arhael
I responded something silly to Tempest? If you make references to past, then be specific. All I remember is how you kept making dumb statement of how Sidious killed Masters with "sheer speed" and how nicely this quote proved you wrong.

That's the silly argument I was addressing. Just because the quote mentions dexterity, does not prove me wrong. As I said, Sidious killing those masters and forcing Windu back are not described for us as separate events, it was lumping up the entire sequence as a whole. The first two masters didn't even react to Sidious's attack, therefore, it was sheer speed that took them out. The source shouldn't have to connect the dots for us.

Originally posted by Arhael
In less than seconds? Like milli-seconds? Dude, your perception must be so slow. 😄

In in-univers time, it was probably less than a second, considering the time it takes to react to blaster bolts and how the first two couldn't even react to Sidious.

Yes, force speed is a force power just like force lightning. Get over it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lol. Ventress is nearly as good as Dooku in sabers. As per Windu's statement Kenobi is the only Jedi able to defeat Grievous. I see no problem with Kenobi struggling against them.

lol ok

Originally posted by Arhael
And, yes, they tried their best to defeat her. It's just Anakin's performance is not as good, when he is not angry and Kenobi's Soresu lacks offensive power.

I see how quickly you change your mind when I use your argument against you. At first your argument was, that Ventress managed to penetrate Kenobi's defense, because he wasn't trying to kill her.

Regardless, when one isn't trying to kill, they hold back. You said you practiced sword fighting, and that it's easier to aim for the hands and feet. Well IDK, I don't know about sword fighting, but I do know when you aim at only particular area's, your chances of landing a blow that will end the fight, will be a lot less, no matter how easier the specific target is compared to the rest. You're still limiting yourself.

Also, why does it seem that most people I argue with about SW, are always expert sword fighters? lol

Originally posted by Arhael
Anyway, nice that it is your last post. 😉

It should be the other way around. Your arguments here have quickly fallen to the level of LeGenD's, DP's and Jadams/Steveholt951's arguments.