Maul Brothers vs. Bane

Originally posted by Nephthys
As Tempest pointed out, Maul also took a hit that cracked the wall behind him and got up again. And they didn't hit their heads. You can clearly see that the glass behind tehir heads is not cracked. 😉

There's nothing indicating they were dazed, so your theory is nothing idle speculation. There is evidence they were able to resist though. Thanks for playing.

Indication is that they hit the wall at high velocity. Similar Force blast knocked Maul unconscious.

No it isn't. I was going off of what Wookieepedia says. That I'm having trouble finding the sources it lists is not the same as me lying.

They can't do it in most of that material because the individuals portrayed in said material isn't powerful enough or destructive enough to do it, simple as that.

All these examples off the top of my head, and you want to just dismiss them? I have nothing but contempt for you. Higher canon only overrides other canonical events when there is an explicit contradiction. There is no contradiction here. You are grasping at straws. It's pathetic.

Anyway, our feelings are mutual. We must be in love.

Man, you're just going to make me re-post all these arguments again, aren't you?

No, his statements support our argument. Tempest has posted them nice and clearly on the last page, a few posts above yours. Go read them again and then slap yourself for being such a stupid sack of shit. jk???

And considering that he in last post presented false evidence, made unsupported assumption and used double standards in attempt to dismiss solid evidence provided by me, he must be getting desperate.

Sidious being a whirlwind of destruction doesn't mean anything about him holding back. It's a colorful description, and as you've pointed out, destruction can also mean to render someone unable to fight. 😉

Because Sidious allowed him to.

Yes, it doesn't necessary means killing but majority SW fights end without killing anyway.

In real life with sword it is much easier to target wrists than torso or head. And in SW losing limbs is the most common way of how fight ends.

Force attacks is another way to incapacitate without killing.

Finally, kicks. They not only greatly enhance combat prowess but make it much easier to end fight withour killing. Kenobi broke Opress' leg, he could easily kill him but decided to chop off wrist.
Sidious had the same choice after he kicked Opress in face. He could chop off limbs, use TK or lightning but decided to do killing blow.

That doesn't prove anything. All it proves is that Savages defense is sloppy. Sidious was clearly and obviously toying with him. As I pointed out, Sidious could have defeated him at any point with the Force, but chose not to. Fact. Why is it so different to believe that with a lightsaber?

I do agree that Sidious would eventually defeat him in pure sabers but that kick in the face allowed to end fight much easier and faster.

Indeed, Sidious could try Force attack but chose not to. Same way he chose to engage Windu and other Masters in pure sabers. Same way he chose to engage Luke in DE in pure sabers both times. Holding back on Force simply doesn't mean he held back in sabers.

None of those other examples were done in the same playful manner as Sidious did. They guy deactivated his lightsabers and casually swayed out of the way of Savage's attacks. How anyone can look at that and think that Savage stood the slightest chance is beyond me.

No, that was due to Vaapad, not because Mace was just concentrating.

Another example is Jacen. He did not switch on like a bulb. Gradually he was reaching deeper and deeper Force unity as fight progressed with Onimi.

If you can't tell that's describing Sidious increasing in speed then you are illiterate and have no right to be debating on a EU board.

Nice of you to concede.

Yes, I'm sure. You wouldn't say someone was quicker if they had faster reflexes. That wouldn't make you quicker, only be able to respond faster to stuff.

Force Speed exists you dolt. There are many example of characters fighting faster than humans possible.

I already said that I don't deny Force speed existance, in main canon it allowes to run faster. But no Sith/Jedi demonstrated themselves to have significant advantage in speed over non-sensitives. Maul is among them and his speed is on level with Dooku and Ventress.

So it all depends on Force portrayal.

It does actually. I suggest you read through more slowly and carefully so you don't miss anything else in the future.

Probably because in that case he has to work against the propulsion of the B-Wing, which exerts a hell of a lot of force. Whereas the capitol ships were levitating and moving very slowly.

No dice. This was in a description of training done while in deep meditation. Yoda wouldn't have been actually exerting himself to his full capabilities. Nice of you to concede the point though.

First, you provided source with Yoda's limits. 5 stones. Indeed in real situation he can lift more and that's why he managed to lift pillar. Droideka's weight is raugly the same as that stone, if not more. Yoda before moving starship lifted countless number of droidekas. That alone trashes your silly argument.

Second, if starships were moving slowly, they would simply bounce away from each other without significant damage and pilots would have time to maneuver away.

Third, first ship was stationary on ground and Yoda was pushing it as well. The size of that ship is 210x371x150. Jacen in comparison was pushing 40x20x? ship.

Forth, it was not slow levitation. Ships were moved at extremely high velocity.
As Yoda pushed first stationary ship, it covered its length (210m) within around 2 seconds. That's raughly 600km/h. Average bullet flies at 450km/h. The forks Dooku threw flew much slower.

Those feats are exagerated in every way, pointless to deny the obvious.

In short it's a good opportunity for you to learn to concede, when you are clearly in the wrong.

"

The lighting was to savor his pain as well without question. He gives his signature laugh of delight before really setting in with the lightning. He enjoyed every moment of crushing the brothers. Filoni himself wrote that Palpatine was in control the entire time, and one with the upper hand enjoys such a position when he is Sith.

Every...single...argument...that...you...have...made...has...been...destroyed.

You have lost. I think I'm going to have to take a rest because you and Arhael are both clearly "devoid of reality".

You are not a judge to say who's argument is destroyed because your ass licking doesn't add anything to their argument.

Have a rest.

Arhael
No need to.
For all the evidenceassumptions he presented I presented solid evidence proving them wrong. Tempest is good at presenting assumptions cleverly and constructively but it doesn't make them right.

You’re a too heavy with accusation and far too light on the praise for my unparalleled genius.

I’ll allow you to correct this egregious error in your next post—but you should make it a priority. (I’d appreciate your revision coded in bolded red and in size 4.)

Arhael
And considering that he in last post presented false evidence, made unsupported assumption and used double standards in attempt to dismiss solid evidence provided by me, he must be getting desperate.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

First, it was an offhanded reference to a source that I thought I’d memorized. I openly concede I’d mistaken the word “knowledge” for “command.”

Second, at no point did I ever make use of a double standard with you.

Third, I refer you to page 12 of this thread:

Me
[quote]You
[quote]Me
That’s because he isn’t. Lucas specifically declared that “you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor” (The Making of Revenge of the Sith). Are either of these characters an alter ego of Obi-Wan’s?

Nice try. But this statement applies to all-out fight. But here argument is about saber skill and speed.[/quote]

The quote says nothing about an “all out fight” especially since the Force was not actively used by Mace or the Jedi Council when they confronted Palpatine. Ergo, Obi-Wan does not qualify for competition with Sidious on any level of combat.[/quote]

Here, you presented false evidence and made an unsupported assumption in one move (that you then abandoned in your subsequent responses).

Your posturing notwithstanding, your entire argument is essentially: “lol well I no filoni sez that its an ass kicking an that sidious always has the advantage but hes wrong but that’s with the force an sidious wanted to kill them both except when he cud have with the force right when the fight began but he didn’t because he’d rather kill them wit sabers? because he gets more achievement points dat way? ok well I really cant provide a cogint explination der but **waves hands** these are not the droids ur looking for lol obi-wan is sidious’s rival and asajj did better than sidious an rivals dooku and ppl fight better when theyre not being serious…”

When you adequately address the following, we’ll talk:

[list=1]
[*]If Sidious sought to kill the pair, why did he not do so when he had them pinned helplessly against the wall?
[*]How is Obi-Wan (or Ventress, for that matter) a rival to Sidious in any respect when Lucas says you have to be Mace or Yoda to qualify?
[*]How does one in a fight produce maximum effort and hold back simultaneously?
[/list=1]

Until then, you can continue to parrot Filoni’s endorsement of Savage’s performance over the brothers ‘til your heart’s content. Because my quotes (Sidious always being superior [not just in Force use] and him “kicking their asses”) trump yours all day, any day. stoned

Originally posted by Ascendancy
The lighting was to savor his pain as well without question. He gives his signature laugh of delight before really setting in with the lightning.

Yeah after he defeated him.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
He enjoyed every moment of crushing the brothers.

He enjoyed having the upper hand in the fight. Just like he enjoyed throwing senate pods against Yoda. Does that mean Yoda wan't a challenge? Conclusion: You have no point.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Filoni himself wrote that Palpatine was in control the entire time, and one with the upper hand enjoys such a position when he is Sith.

Yeah so. When I have I denied he had the upper hand in the fight.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Every...single...argument...that...you...have...made...has...been...destroyed.

You have lost. I think I'm going to have to take a rest because you and Arhael are both clearly "devoid of reality".

Are you frigging kidding me?

So you and the others making up your own bull crap is destroying our factual based arguments, the statements of Filoni and the fight that was actually shown? Yeah keep dreaming kid. And yeah you should take a back seat until you successfully answer this:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Not one of you here has given a good explanation as to why Sidious laughing means he's holding back, when he was laughing at frigging Yoda whilst in combat with him.

Not one of you has been able to give a good explanation for why Sidious resorted to using his Force powers to Knock out Maul so he could defeat the brothers one on one, if the Lightsaber battle against both brothers was so easy for him.

Frankly the arguments against there being any kind of parity in the Lightsaber battle have reached new levels of grasping for straws.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You’re a too heavy with accusation and far too light on the praise for my unparalleled genius.

I’ll allow you to correct this egregious error in your next post—but you should make it a priority. (I’d appreciate your revision coded in bolded red and in size 4.)

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

First, it was an offhanded reference to a source that I thought I’d memorized. I openly concede I’d mistaken the word “knowledge” for “command.”

Second, at no point did I ever make use of a double standard with you.

Third, I refer you to page 12 of this thread:

Nice try. But this statement applies to all-out fight. But here argument is about saber skill and speed.

The quote says nothing about an “all out fight” especially since the Force was not actively used by Mace or the Jedi Council when they confronted Palpatine. Ergo, Obi-Wan does not qualify for competition with Sidious on any level of combat.

Here, you presented false evidence and made an unsupported assumption in one move (that you then abandoned in your subsequent responses).

Your posturing notwithstanding, your entire argument is essentially: “lol well I no filoni sez that its an ass kicking an that sidious always has the advantage but hes wrong but that’s with the force an sidious wanted to kill them both except when he cud have with the force right when the fight began but he didn’t because he’d rather kill them wit sabers? because he gets more achievement points dat way? ok well I really cant provide a cogint explination der but **waves hands** these are not the droids ur looking for lol obi-wan is sidious’s rival and asajj did better than sidious an rivals dooku and ppl fight better when theyre not being serious…”

When you adequately address the following, we’ll talk:

[list=1]
[*][b]If Sidious sought to kill the pair, why did he not do so when he had them pinned helplessly against the wall?
[*]How is Obi-Wan (or Ventress, for that matter) a rival to Sidious in any respect when Lucas says you have to be Mace or Yoda to qualify?
[*]How does one in a fight produce maximum effort and hold back simultaneously?
[/list=1]

Until then, you can continue to parrot Filoni’s endorsement of Savage’s performance over the brothers ‘til your heart’s content. Because my quotes (Sidious always being superior [not just in Force use] and him “kicking their asses”) trump yours all day, any day. stoned [/b]

🤘

Originally posted by Ascendancy
The lighting was to savor his pain as well without question. He gives his signature laugh of delight before really setting in with the lightning. He enjoyed every moment of crushing the brothers. Filoni himself wrote that Palpatine was in control the entire time, and one with the upper hand enjoys such a position when he is Sith.

Every...single...argument...that...you...have...made...has...been...destroyed.

You have lost. I think I'm going to have to take a rest because you and Arhael are both clearly "devoid of reality".

👆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You’re a too heavy with accusation and far too light on the praise for my unparalleled genius.

I’ll allow you to correct this egregious error in your next post—but you should make it a priority. (I’d appreciate your revision coded in bolded red and in size 4.)

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

First, it was an offhanded reference to a source that I thought I’d memorized. I openly concede I’d mistaken the word “knowledge” for “command.”

Second, at no point did I ever make use of a double standard with you.

Your statement:
"Nowhere does it say Sidious began the duel with the intent to kill Maul."
You explicetly kept repeating that Sidious had no intention to kill because of his statement at the end.
But, when I brought the same example with Luke you completely dismissed it:
"I'm not sure if you read the entirety of Dark Empire, but the entire plot revolves around Luke's desperation to kill him. The fact that he's willing take him alive when disarmed is just that.".

Not to mention that you ignored the fact that Luke was on darkside, when he tried to kill Sidious.

This:
"The god of war graciously conceded this point earlier: at no point was Sidious ever fighting for his life; the truth corroborated by Filoni is that Sidious was enjoying the brawl, all cackles and grins throughout the showdown."

You claim that Sidious held back because he enjoyed himself.
Yet, you dismissed two cases that Windu and Ganner enjoyed themselves as well as gave the best performance in their entire life.
And you didn't even comment of fact that in actual saber fight with god help stars Yoda Sidious laughs and grins despite the fact that he wanted to run away seconds before that.

Here you dismiss Kenobi's feat cos of circumstances:
"The situation with the Zabraks has already been proven to be one of circumstance, contingent on Adi Gallia's death galvanizing Kenobi further and the Zabraks seeking to keep Maul alive."

This statement is especially funny considering that Windu lost 3 Jedi during fight and Yoda lost entire order including younglings and witnessed entire republic fall.
You probably meant "Kenobi alive". But again it doesn't prove that they held back on him because during fight we see how they attack him from both sides simultaneously and he barely dodges those nothing less than killing blows.

Also, here you imply how strong Maul must be because of rage:
"The duel’s final act shows Maul, seething with rage—this is important to note, because both “Nightsisters” and “Witches of the Mist” display the ferocity and power an outmatched dark sider can wield when indulging rage—attacking a man who has no interest in ending his life."

But, when I pointed out at fact that Kenobi fought enraged Anankin, you said this:
"Which owes more to Anakin's shaky mindset than Obi-Wan's skill. We know from other sources that Skywalker was the superior warrior".

Seems like all of the above double standards to me.

Third, I refer you to page 12 of this thread:

Nice try. But this statement applies to all-out fight. But here argument is about saber skill and speed.

The quote says nothing about an “all out fight” especially since the Force was not actively used by Mace or the Jedi Council when they confronted Palpatine. Ergo, Obi-Wan does not qualify for competition with Sidious on any level of combat.

Here, you presented false evidence and made an unsupported assumption in one move (that you then abandoned in your subsequent responses).

[*]If Sidious sought to kill the pair, why did he not do so when he had them pinned helplessly against the wall?

[*]How is Obi-Wan (or Ventress, for that matter) a rival to Sidious in any respect when Lucas says you have to be Mace or Yoda to qualify?

[*]How does one in a fight produce maximum effort and hold back simultaneously?
[/list=1]

That's more than enough to conclude that Sidious often prefers to show his superiority in sabers. Against brothers he demonstrated his superiority in Force, then did the same with sabers.

^ LAWYERED. (Not sure how to spell that).

Yes if we take the "Mace or Yoda" statement that literally then that would mean that neither Count Dooku or even Frigging Zone Anakin would be able to even compete with Sidious in a Sole Lightsaber duel because they're not Mace or Yoda?

As if.

I'mma keep this nice and tight, just like Nephthys's mom before we met. U no wum say'n?

Arhael
Bad habit I learned from you, my friend.
Such concession doesn't mean much. You said that it is stupid to attempt to separate saber and Force performance, which all people do here. And with this "off handed reference" you attempted to dismiss the fact that Dooku's TK is superior to Anakin's, while same is not true for sabers.

I did not mean to suggest that Force powers and lightsaber technique aren't separate elements and can yield disparate performances.

I did mean to suggest that trying to separate the two from a standard duel is silly, as Nephthys attempted to explain on another thread. Trying to interpret commentary as applying only to a certain element of combat (unless otherwise noted) is ridiculous.

Arhael
Seems like all of the above double standards to me.

You'd be mistaken.

[list=1]
[*]We know Luke intended to kill Sidious at one point. We do not know that Sidious intended to kill Maul.
[*]The text specifically notes that Ganner's performance was "effortless," which only serves to further my point as a comparison to Sidious, who was similarly without burden.
[*]No source to my knowledge observes any difference in Windu's performance nor in Yoda's, whereas Filoni attributes Obi-Wan's excellence to the focus born from Gallia's death.
[*]Maul demanded Obi-Wan's "surrender" ("Revival"😉 and confirmed later that he never planned on killing him ("The Lawless"😉.
[*]We know from multiple sources (George Lucas among them) that Anakin was the superior warrior and that Obi-Wan's victory owed a great deal to Anakin's tenuous sanity.
[/list]

Arhael
The problem is that it is a vague statement. And I supported my assumptions with several examples such as Dooku being superior in offensive Force use but not in sabers. Kenobi would not be able to compete because Sidious can shit stomp him with Force any time he wants. That quote, also, doesn't say that others don't qualify on any level. To be able to compete characters must have no significant disadvantages. Kenobi's significant disadvantage is his Force defenses as clearly seen from fight with Maul and Dooku but it doesn't apply to sabers.

Arhael
They don't qualify because either can be Force handled by Dooku who is below Sidious in that regard. You take vague statement and try to give it meaning that Sidious is far superior in everything but that is not so. You pointed out that he engaged Windu in pure sabers but that doesn't mean much. Windu's Force defenses are still better than Kenobi's. In book Sidious used TK on him in the moment of momentary distraction and it didn't help, so it can mean that Windu is in general much more guarded.

I'll address both of these at once since they are derivative. I do not dispute Mace's superiority over Obi-Wan in both lightsaber prowess and Force mastery. The problem is that you (wrongly) attempted to bracket George's declaration in a context that wasn't there.

Masters Tiin, Fisto, and Kolar engaged Sidious not with the Force but with their lightsabers and were, likewise, defeated and killed by the Sith Lord not with a manifestation of the Force, but with the lightsaber. George's declaration was in response to [John Knoll?]'s remark that Mace must have "brought the B-team" to arrest Sidious.

George's response is telling: if you're not Mace or Yoda, you are "the B-team." You must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. Since the trio's death was, to borrow forum terms, "lol lightsaberz only!!1!" and George says "you must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," then we can conclude that Obi-Wan does not qualify even in that respect.

I'm not sure how better to communicate this, but suffice it to say your idea that Obi-Wan is on par with Sidious in any realm of combat not only has zero basis, it also contradicts the Flanneled One's edict. Time to concede that particular point and move on. 😬

Arhael
Who knows. Maybe wanted to test his saber skills. It's not uncommon for characters to play with fire and take unnecessary risk. As example Grievous had Kenobi surrounded and heavily outnumbered but decided to engage him in fair fight. Same can be true for Sidious, he let them free with Force and showed his full prowess in sabers instead.

This interpretation and its example does not follow. Grievous not relying on droids is not the same as Sidious relying on the Force; Grievous's victory would have been the product of outside intervention whereas Sidious's powers are not the product of bystanders or assistance.

More importantly, the fact that you concede he could have killed them with the Force and chose not to only further cripples the idea that he somehow sought to kill them both in lightsaber combat and did his best to do so.

Arhael
Sidious tends to hold back on Force attacks but that doesn't mean that he automatically holds back in sabers.

One who has a trump card and eschews it clearly cannot be said to be fighting one's hardest.

Arhael
That's more than enough to conclude that Sidious often prefers to show his superiority in sabers. Against brothers he demonstrated his superiority in Force, then did the same with sabers.

Well, we're in agreement at least that he demonstrated superiority.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ LAWYERED. (Not sure how to spell that).

Yes if we take the "Mace or Yoda" statement that literally then that would mean that neither Count Dooku or even Frigging Zone Anakin would be able to even compete with Sidious in a Sole Lightsaber duel because they're not Mace or Yoda?

As if.

I'm going to be chill and not call you names, but I will say your statements in this thread and others are complete, blind, closed-minded idiocy.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Since the creator of the freaking series stated it thusly, I'd say we can take it as just that.

Except Lucas never said that "lol No one can clash Sabers with Sidious except Yoda or Mace. And lol no one can compare to Sidious in any possible way except Yoda or Mace."

That statement has been stretched beyond belief on these boards.

In the past people on these boards claimed it had no context. It refers to all Jedi and Sith even those that have been killed.

And now suddenly it has a context that it refers specifically to Saber clashing?

Nah don't pull that crap with me.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Hot damn! No wonder you can't take Filoni at his word that Sidious had total control over the entire battle with the Zabraks;

Urmm excuse me. No where did Filoni say that Sidious was "toying or playing" with the Zabraks. Which is what the whole debate is about.

And no where on this thread have I denied Sidious had the upper hand the whole fight. Go quote me or change your tune.

All I've argued is that Maul held his own in the "Saber portion" of the fight. And that Opress was aiding Maul in putting pressure on Sidious IN SABERS ONLY. But despite that Sidious simply used his far superior force powers to kick their butts.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
you don't even accept Lucas' direct statements about his own characters as fact.

It's your camp here who are ignoring Filoni's direct comparison of Opress's performance compared to Fisto's, Tiin's and Kolar's.

That's clear proof Filoni think's the 2 fights are comparable and he doesn't seem to think Sidious was holding back at all.

So don't try and twist that crap back on me. It's your camp who are selectively choosing which words of Filoni's to believe and which to not.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I'm going to be chill and not call you names, but I will say your statements in this thread and others are complete, blind, closed-minded idiocy.

The only closed minded ones are those who are too butt hurt to accept the fight that was given, and so are grasping for Straws and stretching old quotes from Lucas to mean whatever they desire it to mean.

Kenobi obviously can't compete with Sidious because he can't even compete with Count Dooku.

But newer canon showing a direct comparison of Sidious's Saber performance and Kenobi's Saber performance against the exact same foes can make a good case for a Saber comparison between the 2.

As well as old quotes claiming Kenobi is "THE MASTER" of Soresu and comparable to Mace Windu as a swordsman.

Originally posted by The_Tempest I'mma keep this nice and tight, just like Nephthys's mom before we met. U no wum say'n?

I did not mean to suggest that Force powers and lightsaber technique aren't separate elements and can yield disparate performances.

I did mean to suggest that trying to separate the two from a standard duel is silly, as Nephthys attempted to explain on another thread. Trying to interpret commentary as applying only to a certain element of combat (unless otherwise noted) is ridiculous.

We know Luke intended to kill Sidious at one point. We do not know that Sidious intended to kill Maul.

The text specifically notes that Ganner's performance was "effortless," which only serves to further my point as a comparison to Sidious, who was similarly without burden.

Also, why you so blindly grasp for words in context? It doesn't even mean that performance itself was effortless:
"
When blood must be shed, a Jedi does so quickly, surgically, with solemn reverence. With grief.
...
To hold the archway it is not enough to merely wound and kill, is not enough to be calm, and surgical, and grieving. To hold the archway, he must not only slaughter, but slaughter effortlessly, carelessly, laughingly.

Joyfully."

It is clear from text that effort he talks about is hardship of killing.

In any case Ganner slaughtetered effortlessly because he did not hold back. My point is farther supported by the fact that Sidious laughed and grinned, while fighting Yoda.

My entire point is that someone enjoying himself doesn't mean he holds back and Ganner and Windu are solid examples of that. Whether Sidious fought effotlessly or not is irrelevant. Stop changing topic and focus on the reason I brought this feat up, which is holding back!

[*]No source to my knowledge observes any difference in Windu's performance nor in Yoda's, whereas Filoni attributes Obi-Wan's excellence to the focus born from Gallia's death.

And you're being fed disinformation, Filoni does not attribute it to Adi's death. Filoni attributes it to Kenobi being "much more ready and focused" and "very skilled swordsman". He, also, says that, when he confronted Maul first time, he was "not in the right mindset".

It was interviewer who assumed that and made connection to Qui-Gon's death to which Filoni replied:
"Not really but I think it's all about focus, I think it's a piece of courage and being hero and kindness".

From 11:30:
YouTube video

[*]Maul demanded Obi-Wan's "surrender" ("Revival"😉 and confirmed later that he never planned on killing him ("The Lawless"😉.

Maul offered Kenobi to surrender before attacking but then they clearly tried to kill him:

Guess how many pieces woud there be, if Kebobi was crap at dodging?

Brothers attaked Kenobi, while he is seemingly defenceless and their attack was aimed at his body, not wrists or legs:

What would happen, if he was too dazed to rise his sabers? What would happen, if he wasn't strong enough to block their attack?

Sidious tried to kill Maul even before Opress died:

The attack was clearly aimed at stomach, Maul dodged at last instant.

In final fight Sidious tried to kill Maul as well:

If Maul failed to dodge, he would have two holes in his body just like his brother.

From now on assumtions of holding back and not intending to kill can be safely dismissed.

[*]We know from multiple sources (George Lucas among them) that Anakin was the superior warrior and that Obi-Wan's victory owed a great deal to Anakin's tenuous sanity.

Anakin's sanity played cruical part only right at the end after perhaps longest fight in EU. Now you either provide evidence that Anakin's performance was hampered or accept the fact that Kenobi was such a great combatant to survive against rage boosted Anakin for so long. By the way Anakin's performance against Kenobi was far more impressive than against Dooku or anyone else.

The problem is that you (wrongly) attempted to bracket George's declaration in a context that wasn't there.

George's response is telling: if you're not Mace or Yoda, you are "the B-team." You must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. Since the trio's death was, to borrow forum terms, "lol lightsaberz only!!1!" and George says "you must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," then we can conclude that Obi-Wan does not qualify even in that respect.

I'm not sure how better to communicate this, but suffice it to say your idea that Obi-Wan is on par with Sidious in any realm of combat not only has zero basis, it also contradicts the Flanneled One's edict. Time to concede that particular point and move on.

And it's not just their comparable saber performance against brothers and surviving enraged Anakin that qualifies him. I need to remind you of this:
"True masters of Form III have long been considered invincible; although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form III masters have ever been defeated".

As per quote Kenobi is undefeatable in pure saber combat. So Sidious would fed up trying to penetrate his defence and start using Force attacks. 😉

This interpretation and its example does not follow. Grievous not relying on droids is not the same as Sidious relying on the Force; Grievous's victory would have been the product of outside intervention whereas Sidious's powers are not the product of bystanders or assistance.

What you imply is that, if someone is better at offensive Force use, then he is automatically better in saber combat, which is wrong.

Because Sidious could pin brothers against wall doesn't mean that he will be able to stomp them as easily in sabers.

Maul could easily snap Mandalorian's neck with Force but in combat it was a hard fought victory. Same goes for Sidious.

And while Grievous held back on forces, Kenobi held back on TK, so your attempt to dismiss this proof is invalid.

More importantly, the fact that you concede he could have killed them with the Force and chose not to only further cripples the idea that he somehow sought to kill them both in lightsaber combat and did his best to do so.

One who has a trump card and eschews it clearly cannot be said to be fighting one's hardest.

Well, we're in agreement at least that he demonstrated superiority.

Arhael
And you (wrongly) attempted to apply it to "any level" of combat.

I find it curious that you neither deny your misrepresentation of the facts or try to defend it. This open dishonesty is disturbing. 😬

Arhael
No, it's irrelevant how he defeated them because they were non-factor.

Indeed, because one has to be "Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." 😉

Arhael
We have Filoni's statement that Opress performed better than them.

This is irrelevant, for a number of reasons:

[list=1]
[*]The statement still applies if Sidious pulled his punches
[*]Performing better than other non-factors doesn't make oneself a factor (cf. Kit Fisto's performance against Sidious with that of Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar)
[*]Dave Filoni, while an authority, is not George Lucas, the authority
[/list]

Arhael
We, also, know that Maul is better combatant than Opress. And both brothers were getting outskilled by Kenobi. So it reasonable to assume that Kenobi is far better than those Masters and would put up decent saber fight against Sidious.

This is a classic non-sequitur. Obi-Wan's circumstantial performance against the Zabraks does not imply parity with Sidious anymore than Ahsoka's performance against Grievous (who, in turn, performs exceptionally well against Obi-Wan) indicates parity with Sidious.

Moreover, it defies Lucas's declaration that one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. As Obi-Wan is neither Mace or Yoda, he therefore cannot be said to compete with the Emperor.

Arhael
No, my friend. It has plenty of basis, so no way I gonna concede.

And it's not just their comparable saber performance against brothers and surviving enraged Anakin that qualifies him. I need to remind you of this:
"True masters of Form III have long been considered invincible; although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form III masters have ever been defeated".

Are you introducing a random quote from the EU in an attempt to overrule a specific declaration by the highest authority in the franchise? 😬

Arhael
As per quote Kenobi is undefeatable in pure saber combat.

Where does the quote reference "pure saber combat"? 😬

YouTube video

:35 mark

Arhael
So Sidious would fed up trying to penetrate his defence and start using Force attacks.

This would make pretty cool fanfic, bro.
Anyway, back in the realm of canon, your argument that Obi-Wan is comparable to Sidious is baseless.

Sidious defeated Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto with nary a single direct expression of the Force. In response, George declared that one must be Yoda or Mace to compete with him. The fact that Obi-Wan was alive at the time of both duels and that Lucas is (one assumes) aware of Obi-Wan's existence and yet deliberately excludes him from the list of candidates must mean that Obi-Wan does not qualify.

When you concede the point and apologize for your egregious and liberal use of dishonesty in a (frankly disastrous) attempt to make your case, I will gladly address the rest of your argument.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Obi-Wan's circumstantial performance against the Zabraks does not imply parity with Sidious anymore than Ahsoka's performance against Grievous (who, in turn, performs exceptionally well against Obi-Wan) indicates parity with Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is nothing rediculous in that, especially, considering that Kenobi demonstrated comparable saber performance against brothers. On opposite it's rediculous to conclude from vague comment that Sidious is superior in everything.

Their saber performances are not comparable. Sidious did much better and was far more relaxed than Kenobi was. In comparison, Kenobi was fighting far more aggressively than Sidious, and unlike Sidious, he was fighting for what he thought was his life. Also, unlike Sidious, Kenobi has, on other occasions, had his ass handed to him by both of the brothers individually.

Originally posted by Arhael
We know that Luke intended to kill Sidious while on darkside. We do not know at which point Sidious decided not to kill Maul.

Stop grasping at straws, Arhael. Sidious flat out admits that he didn't plan on killing Maul. If you want to claim that his final decision was a result of changing his mind after he defeated Maul, then the burden of proof is on you. But so far all the evidents are against you, considering how, throughout the fight, Sidious had passed up a number of opportunities to kill Maul.

Originally posted by Arhael
It does not farther your point because Sidiou
's fight was nowhere described as effortless.

Filoni says Sidious was enjoying himself. Contextually speaking, Sidious was not fighting his absolute hardest, nor did he find the brothers a threat to him. The fact that you keep comparing Sidious's enjoyment when fighting the brothers to Windu's enjoyment when using vapaad, is another attemp at grasping at straws. The two are different. Windu's enjoyment is a state of mind that has to be accomplished in order to prevent himself from falling to the dark side when using dark emotions. Windu had just lost his companions and was force back in the beginning of his fight with Sidious. Somehow I don't believe he was in an especially playful mood that fight.

Are you really suggesting Filoni meant that Sidious had to enjoy his fight in order to win? Are you seriously missing the point of Filoni's statement?

Originally posted by Arhael
Your entire argument is based on opinion that, if characters would prefer to take someone alive, then automatically they hold back. And despite me bringing multiple evidence that proves it wrong, you keep clinching to it.

Maul offered Kenobi to surrender before attacking but then they clearly tried to kill him:

Guess how many pieces woud there be, if Kebobi was crap at dodging?

Brothers attaked Kenobi, while he is seemingly defenceless and their attack was aimed at his body, not wrists or legs:

What would happen, if he was too dazed to rise his sabers? What would happen, if he wasn't strong enough to block their attack?

Sidious tried to kill Maul even before Opress died:

The attack was clearly aimed at stomach, Maul dodged at last instant.

In final fight Sidious tried to kill Maul as well:

If Maul failed to dodge, he would have two holes in his body just like his brother.

This is where the coordination of speed comes into play when holding back. Sidious attacks Maul with just the right amount of speed that Maul is able to evade. If Sidious was actually trying to kill Maul, then why didn't he when there were plenty of opportunities to?

Originally posted by Arhael
And you (wrongly) attempted to apply it to "any level" of combat.

Lucas's reasoning for why Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto were so easily slaughtered by Sidious blade was: "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete." What's so hard to get about that? Lucas was actually talking about sabers more than anything else. You trying to apply anything else to Lucas's statement, is again, grasping at straws.

What a pair we make. I feel as though we are two sides of the same scrotum.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
What a pair we make. I feel as though we are two sides of the same scrotum.

😮‍💨

Indeed.

Nice avatar, btw.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Stop grasping at straws, Arhael.

Urm the whole "Sidious was holding back" argument is all about grasping at straws, since not even one source on the subject(and there are plenty) confirms this. In fact they all indicate the opposite.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious flat out admits that he didn't plan on killing Maul. If you want to claim that his final decision was a result of changing his mind after he defeated Maul, then the burden of proof is on you.

No the burden of proof is on you to prove he was holding back. And it's for you to prove that he "needed" him alive so desperately and would not at all be willing to kill him considering the official sit flat out says he saw Maul as "a rival to be destroyed."

He urgently left his office for that reason, and was risking his identity even being there.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But so far all the evidents are against you,

No all the Evidences i.e. the sources like the novel, the official website and Filoni's statements all suggest he was not holding back.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
considering how, throughout the fight, Sidious had passed up a number of opportunities to kill Maul.

Like when? Are you still going on about that pause when Opress was dying? That wasn't an opportunity to kill Maul, it was an opportunity to attack him. And guess what? He still did. He was the one who ignited his Sabers and jumped down to fight Maul again. A bit strange for a guy who apparently was so desperate not to hurt him Lol.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Filoni says Sidious was enjoying himself. Contextually speaking, Sidious was not fighting his absolute hardest,

Yes he was. All the flips and spins and speed was put in there to show Sidious fighting at his best. Filoni confirms they took his fighting style from ROTS and really expanded on it t give us an awesome duel.

Yet another indication he wasn't holding back from a canon authority in the subject. Whilst all you guys have is your own speculation (or desires I should say)

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are you really suggesting Filoni meant that Sidious had to enjoy his fight in order to win? Are you seriously missing the point of Filoni's statement?

Filoni meant he was enjoying having the upper hand in the fight. Just like he was laughing his ass off at Yoda when throwing those senate pods at him. Does that mean he was holding back against Yoda? No.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This is where the coordination of speed comes into play when holding back. Sidious attacks Maul with just the right amount of speed that Maul is able to evade. If Sidious was actually trying to kill Maul, then why didn't he when there were plenty of opportunities to?

So what are you saying? He was holding back, but was trying to convince Maul that he wasn't holding back?!

Really is that what your going with? That the whole thing was just one big cocky dance?

He would only do that if he was testing Maul. And if you knew anything about Sith then you would know that even when they test, it's no joke. They're perfectly willing to kill.

Filoni has confirmed it was meant to be the best Lightsaber duel they've ever done. It wasn't meant to just be some cocky dance.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Lucas's reasoning for why Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto were so easily slaughtered by Sidious [b]blade was: "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete." What's so hard to get about that? Lucas was actually talking about sabers more than anything else. You trying to apply anything else to Lucas's statement, is again, grasping at straws. [/B]

Yeah except Lucas said nothing about Sabers. He's not a forum member whose breaking up Sabers, Force and All Out for us. He's just talking All-Out.

Don't try and make out that your desires on what Lucas meant is canon. He wasn't specific so it's down to interpretation.

Besides are you honestly suggesting that Zone Anakin wouldn't even be comparable to Sidious in a sole Saber fight because he's not Yoda or Mace?

Get real.

We are so blessed to have you on the forums, DP. How did we get so lucky as to be graced by a member who knows more about Star Wars than George Lucas himself?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
We are so blessed to have you on the forums, DP. How did we get so lucky as to be graced by a member who knows more about Star Wars than George Lucas himself?

What the heck are you talking about? When have I contradicted George Lucas? He never said you have to be Mace or Yoda to even clash Sabers with Sidious.

Fact is if Palaptine could easily snap Windu's neck with the Force (like he can to Obi-Wan) then Lucas wouldn't have said "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor.."

He was obviously talking about an all out.

The use of the word 'compete' seems to be pretty clear. If you can match him in a certain aspect then you can by definition compete with him, even if only in that aspect. You're making the same mistake of differentiating lightsaber and force and all-out combat. Such a distinction exists only on this forum. When Lucas said that he was indeed talking about all-out combat. Which is a combination of the Force and lightaber skills. Thus, both aspects fall under the quote, since there is no distinction. Further damning is that the fight on which he was commenting was strictly a lightsaber fight.

But then, you're the man who can't grasp the simple meaning of 'his position of strength never wavering.' So I can't expect much from you.