Originally posted by Nephthys
I meant about the stupid 'Banes sucks lol' stuff. I'm not getting into that RoT argument again.
I understand. In addition to being an extremely emotional subject for you, it's an argument you inexorably lose. It's unfortunate that the overarching design favors the true Lord of the Sith and not his flaccid predecessor. excellent
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh look here comes the bam subject changed!I've still to here how we could actually compare characters if we dismiss their showings based off of medium.
I refer you back to TFU. Starkiller's feats are on par with pretty much anyone and Vader, relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, gives him hell. I maintain that discerning placement is a complex equation that draws from feats, quotes, and creative intent. Marka Ragnos doesn't have the feats to compete with anyone in particular, but we know he'd probably eviscerate most. Vitiate has never displayed any superhuman physicality, but the idea that he moves lethargically is silly. Dooku hasn't incinerated people with lightning, but the idea that his lightning is "weak" or that he's somehow inferior to an untrained child is ridiculous.
So, ultimately, I support much of Arhael's overall philosophy.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I refer you back to TFU. Starkiller's feats are on par with pretty much anyone and Vader, relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, gives him hell. I maintain that discerning placement is a complex equation that draws from feats, quotes, and creative intent. Marka Ragnos doesn't have the feats to compete with anyone in particular, but we know he'd probably eviscerate most. Vitiate has never displayed any superhuman physicality, but the idea that he moves lethargically is silly. Dooku hasn't incinerated people with lightning, but the idea that his lightning is "weak" or that he's somehow inferior to an untrained child is ridiculous.So, ultimately, I support much of Arhael's overall philosophy.
How could Ragnos eviscerate any of the Sidious-era Force users? You said we must take literally the statement that they are the cream of the crop, and that any who came before are lacking. If Bane is not anywhere near Sidious despite descriptions to the contrary, then Ragnos is most certainly incapable of a decisive victory against Yoda, Dooku, and company.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
How could Ragnos eviscerate any of the Sidious-era Force users? You said we must take literally the statement that they are the cream of the crop, and that any who came before are lacking. If Bane is not anywhere near Sidious despite descriptions to the contrary, then Ragnos is most certainly incapable of a decisive victory against Yoda, Dooku, and company.
Ragnos predates the Rule of Two, unlike Bane.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I refer you back to TFU. Starkiller's feats are on par with pretty much anyone and Vader, relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, gives him hell. I maintain that discerning placement is a complex equation that draws from feats, quotes, and creative intent. Marka Ragnos doesn't have the feats to compete with anyone in particular, but we know he'd probably eviscerate most. Vitiate has never displayed any superhuman physicality, but the idea that he moves lethargically is silly. Dooku hasn't incinerated people with lightning, but the idea that his lightning is "weak" or that he's somehow inferior to an untrained child is ridiculous.So, ultimately, I support much of Arhael's overall philosophy.
Yeah, bur Vader isn't relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, like I said. Also, Marek does kind of kick his ass when it comes to the Force.
That's how we already do things (other than creative intent which is unreliable in a mythos with multiple creators working simultaneously). And I didn't say his lightning was weak, merely mediocre. Which isn't unreasonable given how it compares to other imo. And Zannah is stupidly powerful as a child. It's pretty dumb tbh. I rationalise it like how Harry does a ton of wandless magic before he learns about wizards. Sometimes using your power unconsciously can be more powerful than if you try to control it I guess.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, bur Vader isn't relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, like I said.
Compared to the stunts he pulls in TFU, yeah he is, bro. Though he almost always outperforms his on-screen self.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, Marek does kind of kick his ass when it comes to the Force.
Not really, no. Especially in the sequel.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's how we already do things (other than creative intent which is unreliable in a mythos with multiple creators working simultaneously).
That's precisely why I do not permit Zamp to rely on it (that's right, he needs my permission) in arguments. Of course, given that one particular creator is supreme....
Originally posted by Nephthys
And I didn't say his lightning was weak, merely mediocre. Which isn't unreasonable given how it compares to other imo.
Except Dooku is one of the most powerful anything that's ever lived. The idea that his lightning is "mediocre" is patently silly and is unreasonable solely by that virtue.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And Zannah is stupidly powerful as a child. It's pretty dumb tbh.
Karpyshyn's vast deficits as a novelist are not in doubt. Nevertheless, I personally find that argument silly. Kajin Savaros, who's had zero training, disintegrates an Imperial Inquisitor with a Force push in Patterns of the Force. Does that make him a superior Force user than Bane?
Er, no. Vader has always been portrayed as extremely powerful with the feats to match. Remember that quote saying he makes Kar Vastor look like a limp-wristed dandy? Vader's the shit.
Open to interpretation I suppose. But you won't see Vader ragdolling Marek without a hole in the latters chest. Not like how Marek treated him in that first game.
Which is why raw power isn't everything. Anakin is even more powerful than him and he's pretty meh at using the Force. Dooku either isn't as skilled in the use of lightning as he should be or he just doesn't hate enough. But those are justifications. The fact is, we cannot magically give him more powerful Force Lightning showings than he's actually performed. Just going 'he's really powerful' isn't evidence that he can charr to the bone or even kill with it. You may call it stupid, but it would be even stupider to make up feats for him that he doesn't have.
See my edit. Though the child is obviously immensely powerful.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Er, no. Vader has always been portrayed as extremely powerful with the feats to match. Remember that quote saying he makes Kar Vastor look like a limp-wristed dandy? Vader's the shit.
Are we talking feats or quotes now?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why raw power isn't everything. Anakin is even more powerful than him and he's pretty meh at using the Force. Dooku either isn't as skilled in the use of lightning as he should be or he just doesn't hate enough. But those are justifications. The fact is, we cannot magically give him more powerful Force Lightning showings than he's actually performed. Just going 'he's really powerful' isn't evidence that he can charr to the bone or even kill with it.
Except... you [have] want[ed] to do that [before] with Vitiate and Bane. Bane's feats on a dark side nexus you wanted to include as part of his standard skillset (even though he's never shown that sort of power elsewhere) and you want to ascribe superhuman physicality to Vitiate that's never shown.
Which is why I couched Dooku with those examples.
Originally posted by Nephthys
See my edit. Though the child is obviously immensely powerful.
So that's... a yes? Yes, he is more powerful than Bane?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I refer you back to TFU. Starkiller's feats are on par with pretty much anyone and Vader, relatively pedestrian in any other incarnation, gives him hell. I maintain that discerning placement is a complex equation that draws from feats, quotes, and creative intent. Marka Ragnos doesn't have the feats to compete with anyone in particular, but we know he'd probably eviscerate most. Vitiate has never displayed any superhuman physicality, but the idea that he moves lethargically is silly. Dooku hasn't incinerated people with lightning, but the idea that his lightning is "weak" or that he's somehow inferior to an untrained child is ridiculous.So, ultimately, I support much of Arhael's overall philosophy.
I agree with most of this. Although I'm hesitant to assume that Vitiate can be considered one of the fastest force users just because he is one of the most powerful. He's not shown to be a combatant who has been trained to focus the force for speed. I agree that he should have superhuman speed and reflexes, but I don't agree that he should be among the fastest.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I agree with most of this. Although I'm hesitant to assume that Vitiate can be considered one of the fastest force users just because he is one of the most powerful. He's not shown to be a combatant who has been trained to focus the force for speed. I agree that he should have superhuman speed and reflexes, but I don't agree that he should be among the fastest.
If such things derive from the Force, then he should.
Only with study can you become more proficient at using the Force. If Vitiate is unskilled at using Force Speed, then raw power does not automatically grant him great ability in its use.
And Marek likewise seems much more proficient in destructive Force-use than physically amping himself. Great power does not grant one great ability in all areas of its use. A powerful Jedi Guardian might be less powerful in TK than a less powerful Consular. And a powerful Consular might be less able in lightsaber combat than a less powerful Guardian, to give a basic example.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Are we talking feats or quotes now?Except... you [have] want[ed] to do that [before] with Vitiate and Bane. Bane's feats on a dark side nexus you wanted to include as part of his standard skillset (even though he's never shown that sort of power elsewhere) and you want to ascribe superhuman physicality to Vitiate that's never shown.
Which is why I couched Dooku with those examples.
So that's... a yes? Yes, he is more powerful than Bane?
We were talking both. That's how you said we should do this remember?
Those are different situations. I've always used logic and reasoning to justify those kinds of arguments. Logic beyond 'Bane is powerful.' I have not ascribed abilities to Bane that he has not actually performed and I've acknowledged the possibility that Vitiate (and Nihilus for that matter) may be mediocre in terms of speed.
Also I've told you before how much it genuinely irritates me when you attempt to 'educate' me and throw past arguments in my face. Stop. Doing. It.
Um, no? We'd need much more information than just that to declare him that powerful. Zannah does a lot of crazy powerful stuff. I'm open to the possibility though.
I understand where Arhael is coming from for the most part. But when it comes to someone like Obi Wan, I don't. I don't agree that Obi Wan should be a match for someone like Sidious in terms of speed just because the portrayal of that power has been inconsistent in the mythos. Sidious has never been inconsistent with that power (assuming he was holding back against the brothers), and Obi Wan has never displayed the speed that Palpatine has. I'm alright with the argument that Obi Wan would last longer against Sidious than the masters did in ROTS, but there is nothing to suggest that he can provide a challenge, especially since Obi Wan isn't much better than Fisto.
I would like to hear what Arhael (and Tempest for that matter) thinks about Sidious blitzing those Jedi tbh. Do they think Maul, Opress and by extension Obi-Wan can do the same?
Also, edited above post. Check it Tempest. You should always check my posts after you've responded to them in case I've edited.
Perhaps. But given that the fight starts with Sidious overpowering them and them seemingly unable to do anything about it until he lets them go, I don't think so.
Or Plagueis in his book.
"He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians."
All but is the same as anything but. It is a hyperbolical implication that his TK did horrible damage. What exactly it did to them is unknown and is subject to reader's imagination. But what is for sure is that they were not atomized.
Force Destruction is a dark side power that is described as TK powerful enough to vaporise opponents (Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II manual).
And now I accuse you of bullshitting, unless you can provide actual quote from that source. This guide is not available for download anywhere and can be purchased only. I take it you have it on your hands since you know the info, so screenshot, please.
In the mean time the guide text is available online and this is the description of the power:
"Force Destruction - a giant fireball that causes tremendous splash damage.
Sends the enemies flying. More stars causes more damage, and a greater radius
of splash damage."
1. It confirms that this Force power is not TK but a fireball.
2. It confirms that it doesn't vaporize but makes opponents to fly away.
3. Fact: in game noone gets vaporized or torn to pieces.
4. Conclusion: your claim is a blatant lie.
Does he though? As I've said, Sidious was clearly going easy on him.
And we can see that Sidious can't blitz either of the brothers. Even when he engaged Opress alone, he couldn't get past his defence with lightsabers and utilized kicks like Kenobi to concussion him.
Yoda was able to defeat Dooku even though he had a speed boost on Vjun, and in a training session was able to dodge the attacks of multiple Jedi Masters without a lightsaber.
Finally as you said, he was able to keep up with a Sidious who blitzed 3 of the Jedi's top bladesbeasts.
That's ridiculous and would lead to wildly speculative arguments that have no possibility of an actual verifiable evidence.
Yoda in AotC struggles a lot to keep a pillar in air. In RotS heavily concentrates on a platform, which is not even heavy because of repulsors. In ESB he struggles to lift a starfighter. In comparison Bane topples entire building with single Force blast and disintegrates metal. Bane's feats surpass Yoda's by a milestone, therefore, Yoda gets ragdolled or vaporized, he is no threat for god like Bane.
Sounds rediculous? I am sure it does. But that's exactly how you argue in favor of Bane against brothers.
Nephthys
We were talking both. That's how you said we should do this remember?
You’re very much confusing the myriad threads of this discussion. I said that we should use feats, quotes, and creative intent to accurately determine relative placement.
With Vader, I was explaining that his portrayal in TFU is very much incongruous with his depiction in the films and EU. Yet in a game that revolves around the premise of kicking ass with the Force, Vader is not disregarded but elevated—the creative staff understood that Vader’s “street-grade” performance (to borrow Nebaris’s phrase) was the result of artistic medium. Why? Because of the very reasons you provided: We know he’s intended to be very powerful (courtesy of the multitude of quotes), 30+ year old choreography and technical limitations notwithstanding.
Likewise, we know Dooku is one of the most powerful Force users ever. The idea that he’s somehow “mediocre” in a major regard is… unlikely at best.
Nephthys
Those are different situations. I've always used logic and reasoning to justify those kinds of arguments. Logic beyond 'Bane is powerful.' I have not ascribed abilities to Bane that he has not actually performed and I've acknowledged the possibility that Vitiate (and Nihilus for that matter) may be mediocre in terms of speed.
Not at all. You ascribe abilities to Bane that he’s never actually performed under his own abilities. You commit the same error you accuse me of attempting with Dooku.
Nephthys
Also I've told you before how much it genuinely irritates me when you attempt to 'educate' me and throw past arguments in my face. Stop. Doing. It.
Tbh, I don’t particularly care that it irritates you. It’s a legitimate criticism to make; if two people can’t come to an agreement on single standards for a debate, there’s no point in having one. Ever.
Nephthys
Um, no? We'd need much more information than just that to declare him that powerful. Zannah does a lot of crazy powerful stuff. I'm open to the possibility though.
As it’s a tangent, I’ll post or PM you excerpts later.
Nephthys
I would like to hear what Arhael (and Tempest for that matter) thinks about Sidious blitzing those Jedi tbh.
I think it’s a tremendous failure in choreography and scripting on every level. Trying to cobble together a plausible explanation is extremely difficult in light of all the facts.
Nephthys
Do they think Maul, Opress and by extension Obi-Wan can do the same?
Nephthys
Also, edited above post. Check it Tempest. You should always check my posts after you've responded to them in case I've edited.
Yes, I know. I hate you for such sneaky editses. uhuh
SIDIOUS_66
I understand where Arhael is coming from for the most part. But when it comes to someone like Obi Wan, I don't. I don't agree that Obi Wan should be a match for someone like Sidious in terms of speed just because the portrayal of that power has been inconsistent in the mythos. Sidious has never been inconsistent with that power (assuming he was holding back against the brothers), and Obi Wan has never displayed the speed that Palpatine has. I'm alright with the argument that Obi Wan would last longer against Sidious than the masters did in ROTS, but there is nothing to suggest that he can provide a challenge, especially since Obi Wan isn't much better than Fisto.
That’s where Arhael and I deviate. I don’t think Obi-Wan can challenge Sidious. As of this duel, I don’t think he could in any arena. And I agree that Sidious is consistently depicted as extraordinarily quick and agile even among Force users—rather like Yoda.
It's stated in pretty much every series of Star Wars books that different Force users are skilled in different areas of the Force. One of the handbooks discusses the fact that Force speed feats are not equal among all Force users even when they are similar in power.
Since we're on the subject of Bane anyway, he speaks to Zannah having the potential to surpass him, yet he directs her towards sorcery because she has an affinity for it and trains her in Soresu because he sees that she will never be able to simply overpower her opponents. Clearly she is a strong Force user, but that does not directly translate into her having greater physical strength and speed than others. The knight who was wearing her down did not have nearly her total ability in the Force, but he was greatly skilled in directing the Force into saber combat. If raw power were all it took then he would have stood no chance against her.
We see Luke pin Caedus like a child, yet Luke didn't exactly come out unscathed once they engaged in saber combat. Innate ability, training, and total connection with the Force all play into what one can do.
Beyond that, if the Force were the end all, be all of combat then Mandos, assassins, etc would never be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Jedi and Sith.