Maul Brothers vs. Bane

Originally posted by Ascendancy
It's stated in pretty much every series of Star Wars books that different Force users are skilled in different areas of the Force. One of the handbooks discusses the fact that Force speed feats are not equal among all Force users even when they are similar in power.

Since we're on the subject of Bane anyway, he speaks to Zannah having the potential to surpass him, yet he directs her towards sorcery because she has an affinity for it and trains her in Soresu because he sees that she will never be able to simply overpower her opponents. Clearly she is a strong Force user, but that does not directly translate into her having greater physical strength and speed than others. The knight who was wearing her down did not have nearly her total ability in the Force, but he was greatly skilled in directing the Force into saber combat. If raw power were all it took then he would have stood no chance against her.

We see Luke pin Caedus like a child, yet Luke didn't exactly come out unscathed once they engaged in saber combat. Innate ability, training, and total connection with the Force all play into what one can do.

Beyond that, if the Force were the end all, be all of combat then Mandos, assassins, etc would never be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Jedi and Sith.

👆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Tbh, I don’t particularly care that it irritates you. It’s a legitimate criticism to make; if two people can’t come to an agreement on single standards for a debate, there’s no point in having one. Ever.

Sounds fair.

Arhael
Keeping them pinned untill he gets Force exhausted would not be a wise way to start a fight.

Sidious evinced absolutely zero signs of exhaustion, fatigue, or even effort; he was laughing the entire time. On the other hand, the brothers squirmed and struggled, utterly helpless until he released them. I’m generous enough to concede the idea that they challenged him in the subsequent duel (though there is ample reason to believe otherwise), but Nephthys’s point endures: he could have ended the confrontation (and their lives) then and there.

When it comes to the Force, even combined, they’re clearly no match for him.

Arhael
Your opinion doesn't add any weight to the argument. We judge by what we can see and what is actually there.

And we can see that Sidious can't blitz either of the brothers. Even when he engaged Opress alone, he couldn't get past his defence with lightsabers and utilized kicks like Kenobi to concussion him.

Not so. We saw that Sidious didn’t blitz the Zabraks, not that he couldn’t. It’s a subtle but stupendous difference.

I watched the duel more times than I can remember: with the exception of two instants, Sidious is cackling and grinning the entire duration. The official website confirms that he never “wavered from his position of superiority” during the brawl, proving that even combined they weren’t equal.

Let’s dispense with pretense: Sidious performed far better than Obi-Wan did against the brothers.

Ascendancy
It's stated in pretty much every series of Star Wars books that different Force users are skilled in different areas of the Force. One of the handbooks discusses the fact that Force speed feats are not equal among all Force users even when they are similar in power.

Which handbook?

Ascendancy
Since we're on the subject of Bane anyway, he speaks to Zannah having the potential to surpass him, yet he directs her towards sorcery because she has an affinity for it and trains her in Soresu because he sees that she will never be able to simply overpower her opponents. Clearly she is a strong Force user, but that does not directly translate into her having greater physical strength and speed than others. The knight who was wearing her down did not have nearly her total ability in the Force, but he was greatly skilled in directing the Force into saber combat. If raw power were all it took then he would have stood no chance against her.

That’s a very fair point.

Ascendancy
We see Luke pin Caedus like a child, yet Luke didn't exactly come out unscathed once they engaged in saber combat. Innate ability, training, and total connection with the Force all play into what one can do.

Beyond that, if the Force were the end all, be all of combat then Mandos, assassins, etc would never be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Jedi and Sith.

Which largely underscores Arhael’s paradigm.

Nephthys
Sounds fair.

By this, do you mean, “That’s a fair point, Tempest, I’ll try to do better in the future” or “That’s a fair point, I hate you we’re done”?

It basically means

God, I'm so charming.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious evinced absolutely zero signs of exhaustion, fatigue, or even effort; he was laughing the entire time. On the other hand, the brothers squirmed and struggled, utterly helpless until he released them. I’m generous enough to concede the idea that they challenged him in the subsequent duel (though there is ample reason to believe otherwise), but Nephthys’s point endures: he could have ended the confrontation (and their lives) then and there.

When it comes to the Force, even combined, they’re clearly no match for him.

Not so. We saw that Sidious didn’t blitz the Zabraks, not that he couldn’t. It’s a subtle but stupendous difference.

I watched the duel more times than I can remember: with the exception of two instants, Sidious is cackling and grinning the entire duration. The official website confirms that he never “wavered from his position of superiority” during the brawl, proving that even combined they weren’t equal.

Let’s dispense with pretense: Sidious performed far better than Obi-Wan did against the brothers.

Sabers. I say equal. Kenobi dodged and blocked everything. Sidious got couple of physical hits past but his fight was longer. But Sidious is much better, when it comes to 1 v 1 fight due to his style being offensive.

Strength: Sidious as his demonstration was more explicit.

Kicks: Equal. Possibly Sidious judging by how he knocked down Opress with back-flip. But his fight was longer, so more opportunities. Also, because of superior power Sidious had a chance to engage Opress alone. Kenobi never got such opportunity.

Force: Answer is obvious. Sidious' Force attack allowed him to engage Opress alone and then Maul. Sidious' superior power is his joker card. While Kenobi apart from being outnumbered was Force handled as well.

We see Luke pin Caedus like a child

Nightbrothers win. Probably.

/thread

But Dooku would kick Bane's ass, let's just get that out of the way.

Originally posted by Arhael

This is lame example. Caedus didn't try to use Force to break free because it would provoke fight. In actual fight Luke needed to catch him off guard in order to do successful Force attack. And Jacen demonstrated successful Force attack on Luke as well. Neither is superior with TK, when it comes to real combat.

You're joking right?

Took me a second to find it, but it could not be more clear how helpless Caedus was against Luke. He was fully aware of Luke before his uncle initiated the attack, yet could do nothing to stop it.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=37578017&postcount=20

The passage itself speaks to Luke handling him like a child and making it clear that he was not even exerting the full extent of his abilities.

Originally posted by Eminence
Nightbrothers win. Probably.

/thread

But Dooku would kick Bane's ass, let's just get that out of the way.

Not a chance bro.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Er, no. Vader has always been portrayed as extremely powerful with the feats to match. Remember that quote saying he makes Kar Vastor look like a limp-wristed dandy? Vader's the shit.

Open to interpretation I suppose. But you won't see Vader ragdolling Marek without a hole in the latters chest. Not like how Marek treated him in that first game.

Which is why raw power isn't everything. Anakin is even more powerful than him and he's pretty meh at using the Force. Dooku either isn't as skilled in the use of lightning as he should be or he just doesn't hate enough. But those are justifications. The fact is, we cannot magically give him more powerful Force Lightning showings than he's actually performed. Just going 'he's really powerful' isn't evidence that he can charr to the bone or even kill with it. You may call it stupid, but it would be even stupider to make up feats for him that he doesn't have.

See my edit. Though the child is obviously immensely powerful.

Gonna have to disagree with you here Nepth. It's pretty clear that in the absence of feats, Dooku can be powerscaled to at least Darth Nyriss level, lighting wise. It'd be ridiculous to assume that Sidious and Dooku are vastly inferior to the likes of Darth Nyriss.

I can see there's a lot of butt hurt about just how awesome the Brothers Saber performance was against Sidious.

Yes the same Brothers who Obi-Wan bested in Sabers, which is clear proof now that Obi-Wan is a top-tier Saber duelist alongside Mace Windu and Darth Sidious.

So the pro-Sidious and anti-Zabrak camp here are just resorting to this ridiculous idea that "Sidious wasn't trying" to which I have few points to make:

1. The Sidious vs Yoda fight is clear proof that Sidious laughing and taking a pause in a fight DOES NOT mean when he IS fighting he's not doing so to the best of his ability.

2. Sidious's grunt before he knocks Maul out is clear proof he was struggling against the duo. (Not to mention getting knocked off a balcony isn't exactly what happens to someone whose in complete control of the fight).

3. Yes Sidious was winning the 2 on 1. But his far far superior force tk powers clearly played a large factor in that victory.

4. Sidious did attempt to floor the brothers with force powers and kicks whenever an opportunity cropped up.

5. Like it or not Maul in the final fight was fighting equally against Sidious in skill and in speed by himself. Even the Saber lock which Sidious won started with Maul in control. After which Sidious wastes no time to use his superior force powers to subdue Maul.

Conclusion- The Brothers were clearly more than just a challenge or a threat to Sidious in Sabers. Sidious however was always going to win via his far far superior force tk powers.

Originally posted by Arhael
Keeping them pinned untill he gets Force exhausted would not be a wise way to start a fight.

If he wanted to, he could have easily snapped their necks or Force Choked them.

Originally posted by Arhael
Oh, Plagueis DID NOT vaporize anyone with TK. You tend to misunderstand book text.

"He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that [b]all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians."

All but is the same as anything but. It is a hyperbolical implication that his TK did horrible damage. What exactly it did to them is unknown and is subject to reader's imagination. But what is for sure is that they were not atomized.[/b]

An interesting argument. And one I've brought up myself. To counter it however, you should know that Websters defines the phrase 'all but' as 'very nearly', indicating that Plageuis was fairly close to doing so i.e. he disintegrated them. Also a more accurate phrase than the one you used would be 'everything but', as the word 'all' describes an totality of quantity rather than of possibility.

Originally posted by Arhael
Manual is a guide to the game. It's description applies only to game, not entire Universe as it merely describes mechanics of the game. For the universe we have Guide to the Force and encyclopedias in general. Moreover, games tend to have non-canon Force powers that don't exist outside of the game and used solely to enhance gameplay.

And now I accuse you of bullshitting, unless you can provide actual quote from that source. This guide is not available for download anywhere and can be purchased only. I take it you have it on your hands since you know the info, so screenshot, please.

In the mean time the guide text is available online and this is the description of the power:

"Force Destruction - [b]a giant fireball that causes tremendous splash damage.
Sends the enemies flying. More stars causes more damage, and a greater radius
of splash damage."

1. It confirms that this Force power is not TK but a fireball.
2. It confirms that it doesn't vaporize but makes opponents to fly away.
3. Fact: in game noone gets vaporized or torn to pieces.
4. Conclusion: your claim is a blatant lie.[/b]

Urgh, I can't believe you made me do actual effort in tracking down the manual. It says that Force Destruction 'This exploding force field power destroys everything near it.' So it's not a fireball either. Wookieepedia also says that there is other mentions of the power in The Book of Sith and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia (under energy trap). I'm attempting to find copies of these books to get you the quotes, so bare with me. If anyone reading this has those sources, please can you post the information for me, thank you.

Also, you got that description from Gamefaqs, didn't you. 😐

Originally posted by Arhael
Your opinion doesn't add any weight to the argument. We judge by what we can see and what is actually there.

And we can see that Sidious can't blitz either of the brothers. Even when he engaged Opress alone, he couldn't get past his defence with lightsabers and utilized kicks like Kenobi to concussion him.

As Tempest said, we see that Sidious did not blitz them, not that he couldn't. In Shadow Conspiracy Maul notes towards the end of the duel that Sidious is beginning to get faster, indicating that Sidious never fought at his full speed during the fight.

Originally posted by Arhael
Speed boost? Does it say that or you just make it up? He had power boost from nexus. Nexus increases power, not speed. It allowed Dooku to fight longer without getting tired.

'As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.'

The implication is clear, the text mentions speed then says that his bladework is heightened on Vjun, not merely that he had more stamina. It also does not need to be said, if Vjun increases Dooku's power then it increases how powerful his force powers are, including force speed.

Originally posted by Arhael
Let's do a recap.
You stated that Bane's speed feats are superior completely ignoring the fact that Maul fought at equal speed with Sidious because Maul is never described like wielding 12 lightsabers. Yet, when I pointed out that [b]exactly the same applies to Yoda, you praise him for doing exactly the same thing as Maul - fighting Sidious at the same speed. Seriously, WTF???[/b]

As I said, there is clear evidence that Sidious was not unleashing his full speed against them.

Originally posted by Arhael
Really? You put up rediculous and speculative arguments already. I like how you defend Yoda as being "fast enough" for Bane. Now let me adopt your style and lowball Yoda.

Yoda in AotC struggles a lot to keep a pillar in air. In RotS heavily concentrates on a platform, which is not even heavy because of repulsors. In ESB he struggles to lift a starfighter. In comparison Bane topples entire building with single Force blast and disintegrates metal. Bane's feats surpass Yoda's by a milestone, therefore, Yoda gets ragdolled or vaporized, he is no threat for god like Bane.

Sounds rediculous? I am sure it does. But that's exactly how you argue in favor of Bane against brothers.

Yoda also tosses tank transport ships around with the Force. He is clearly immensely powerful enough so that Bane wouldn't be able to dominate him like he would the less powerful Zabrak brothers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If he wanted to, he could have easily snapped their necks or Force Choked them.

LOL I don't know if you noticed but he did kill Opress. So he clearly wasn't there to hold back on him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I
As I said, there is clear evidence that Sidious was not unleashing his full speed against them.

There's ZERO evidence of this. Stop trying to lowball the brother's performance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL I don't know if you noticed but he did kill Opress. So he clearly wasn't there to hold back on him.

There's ZERO evidence of this. Stop trying to lowball the brother's performance.

But the argument has been made that he was toying with them. If he wasn't holding back on them, then why did he let them go and allow them to recover rather than press his advantage?

Evidence has been provided.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But the argument has been made that he was toying with them. If he wasn't holding back on them, then why did he let them go and allow them to recover rather than press his advantage?

Evidence has been provided.

The fact that he did not use the force to defeat them does not mean he was holding back in the lightsaber duel.

Heck, at one point in the duel he even shows clear signs of fatigue suggesting it did take some effort to defeat the two of them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But the argument has been made that he was toying with them. If he wasn't holding back on them, then why did he let them go and allow them to recover rather than press his advantage?

Evidence has been provided.

No "Evidence" has been provided at all. An argument has been made by the Pro-Sidious and Zabrak haters who have joined forces on this in an attempt to present their "argument" as factual.

As for your argument, GOD FORBID that it was actually costing Sidious energy to hold 2 Force beasts at bay simultaneously.

The fact that he hit them full on and completely by surprise shows he wasn't just there for a play around. But was likely a legitimate attempt to overpower them from the get go.

There was absolutely no reason for him not to snap Opress's neck if it was really that easy for him to do so.

Wait for some canon sources on the fight and then see if it says anywhere that Sidious decided to play with the Zabraks for his own amusement. Until then go by how the fight actually went.

Originally posted by ares834
The fact that he did not use the force to defeat them does not mean he was holding back in the lightsaber duel.

His cackles, grins, and apparent relaxation suggest it.

ares834
Heck, at one point in the duel he even shows clear signs of fatigue suggesting it did take some effort to defeat the two of them.

Or, more accurately, his acrobatics required effort. We see him loose a powerful Force push immediately after. To say nothing of his casual evasion of Savage. Only when Maul was enraged did anything like parity manifest, but we know Sidious had no intention of killing him; moreover, the website says Maul was no match for him even then.

All of this is underscored by the fact that Sidious was actively courting battle by releasing the brothers at the start. Even combined, they're not even close.

Nephthys
Dooku either isn't as skilled in the use of lightning as he should be or he just doesn't hate enough. But those are justifications. The fact is, we cannot magically give him more powerful Force Lightning showings than he's actually performed. Just going 'he's really powerful' isn't evidence that he can charr to the bone

Nephthys
or even kill with it.

Silly line of thought anyway.

Nephthys
As I said, there is clear evidence that Sidious was not unleashing his full speed against them.

Nephthys
Yoda also tosses tank transport ships around with the Force. He is clearly immensely powerful enough so that Bane wouldn't be able to dominate him like he would the less powerful Zabrak brothers.

Ascendancy
The passage itself speaks to Luke handling him like a child and making it clear that he was not even exerting the full extent of his abilities.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

...And the movie!era characters aren't supposed to be "incredibly powerful"? Look, there's no two ways about it: Lucas conceived the Rule of Two as a means of strengthening the Sith. Each successor is greater than his or her predecessor, Bane himself articulates that. Per Lucas, this is what Emperor "I wanna fvcking live forever" Palpatine himself was even trying to do: find someone more powerful than he was. Per the Rule of Two, Bane is supposed to be the weakest of his order. Lucas describes the prequel era as "the golden age" of the Jedi with respect to combat and yet you might not guess it from their performance in AOTC compared to other eras.

I will note there were some backslides during the RoT, perhaps most obviously the time when one of the Sith turned lightside and started smashing holocrons and knowledge collections.

And some of the time the next simply wins because the prior got weaker- I mean, Bane wasn't at his peak when he went down, that'd be with the Orbalisks.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

I’m still hesitant to claim that he was “toying” with the Zabraks in the sword clash, but there is little doubt that Sidious could have ended that fight whenever he wanted through the Force, which he is seen to clearly enjoy a colossal advantage over both of them.

Yea, that I'll buy. They only had some chance when they were keeping him busy with sword play.

Though I'll note they never tried both force-attacking him at once. Except for the initial TK against the walls, he always attacked one or the other.

Originally posted by Q99

Yea, that I'll buy. They only had some chance when they were keeping him busy with sword play.

Which is the best way to deal with a superior force user. After the sword fight commenced Sidious didn't waste any opportunities to get in Force attacks.

Also I would like to note that Maul levitated and pinned Obi-Wan against the wall with seeming ease. Does that mean he could have snapped his neck there and then? Does the fact that he didn't mean he was holding back? Doubt it.

RE: Bane & the orbalisks, they afforded him a combat advantage, yes, but his mastery was at its height during DoE.