Anakin Skywalker (ROTS) VS. Mace Windu (ROTS)

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Or in the pic I know he's using Makashi that's his signature style so...what other style is he gonna use?

Arguing that Mace wasn't using Vaapad simply because it wasn't mentioned during that 2 page battle is absolutely horrid logic. If he wasn't using Vaapad for that reason, then Dooku wasn't using Makashi either. See how faulty that line of thinking is?

yeah...very faulty....we can only imagine.....
Good point....

Originally posted by Galan007
The point is that Makashi is the form Dooku uses in battle, just like Vaapad is the form Mace uses in battle-- these facts have been solidified by multiple canon sources.

Arguing that Mace wasn't using Vaapad simply because it wasn't mentioned during that 2 page battle is absolutely horrid logic. If he wasn't using Vaapad for that reason, then Dooku wasn't using Makashi either. See how faulty that line of thinking is?

Well the difference is quite obvious.. just like the styles are quite obviously different. Dooku doesn't have to emerge into Makashi... That is the style he uses. That isn't the same for Mace. We've seen several sources talk about him having to go into Vaapad.. and there being some time taken in doing so. It has also been mentioned of him doing it nigh instantly as well. Point is, it seems he goes into vaapad during battles but sometimes it's dependent on who's he's battling.. what the stakes are.. and maybe other factors. Against the emperor he didn't go full vaapad mode for a little bit. So that is the difference I'm referring to and there are also degrees to which he's in vaapad. NONE of which was mentioned at all. By degrees I mean how much is he immersed in it. So depending on how long the fight lasts and who he is fighting can change how much vaapad is being used or if he's even got into yet. For example him fighting a lightsider or somebody devoid of DS emotions like a robot. Dooku's style o nthe otherhand don't depend on such factors.. nor does he have to immerse into anything tha tcan take time in some instances.

So your opinion is that Mace was holding back against a guy whose capture/death he believed would end the war? No. Their battle, albeit short-lived, was still more than long enough for Mace to slip into Vaapad.

As I've mentioned before, Mace is able to immerse himself in Vaapad so swiftly that it may as well be instantaneous. During his battle with Palpatine, for example, Mace fully 'activated' Vaapad within the time it took Palpatine's lightning to travel from his fingertips to Mace's lightsaber:
"Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him." - RotS

There is absolutely no reason to assume that Mace wasn't fully immersed in Vaapad during that brief scuffle. Again, it was only a meager 2 pages-worth of fighting and no ground was given. In an extended battle(ala his battle with Palps), Mace could very well gain the advantage.

HOw short the battle was is the EXACT reason I said maybe he never really even immersed himself into Vaapad.. and it's certainly possible he wasn't totally immersed. In the same battle you reference with Palps... It took him longer to get fully into it durin gthe saber battle. The fact that it was turned off.. that he need to get back into vaapad when then emperor shoots his lighting.. gives further proof of him going in and out of it during battle. Him not getting into it right away with the emperor right away.. somebody far more dangerous than any other foe.. is further evidence. Point is, during the battle with the emperor it seemingly went off and on mode.. took him some time to get into during the saber battle.. So clearly, if the fight is short enough... or other factors.. he certainly might not be totally in vaapad mode if at all. What's even more clear is that his style is very different than Dooku's style.. which is the point I was also making.

Again, consider the context. Mace was fighting the man who he believed was THE leader of the Separatists. A man whose capture/death he believed would end the entire war-- or at the very least deal a crippling blow to the Separatists. He's not going to half-assedly fight/self-neuter his power when the entire war hangs in the balance. Assuming such is to completely ignore Mace's ideals as a character.

Bottom line: Mace was using Vaapad. Dooku was using Makashi. They fought for 2 pages. Magnaguards intervened. There was no clear winner. Endastory.

That is all nice and dandy.. but I referenced somebody even more dangerous and who he hated even more.. and it still took him time to get into vaapad during one portion of the battle. During another portion of the battle had exited vaapad and seemingly had to get back into vaapad when the emperor fired lighting. So, if it can take him a little bit.. when fighting somebody more dangerous.. more hated.. and more powerful.. Surely, the same could be true and take even more time if he's fighting somebody less dangerous. To ignore him taking awhile to get into it.. to ignore him turning it off and on.. is to ignore canon material about the form. To say nothing of the fact.. that is was never even MENTIONED as him being in it. Sure maybe he was, no biggie there, but to act like ti's a given he was fully immersed is not sound logic imo. Not only illogical either.. but not sound or definate.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, consider the context. Mace was fighting the man who he believed was THE leader of the Separatists. A man whose capture/death he believed would end the entire war-- or at the very least deal a crippling blow to the Separatists. He's not going to half-assedly fight/self-neuter his power when the entire war hangs in the balance. Assuming such is to completely ignore Mace's ideals as a character.

Bottom line: Mace was using Vaapad. Dooku was using Makashi. They fought for 2 pages. Magnaguards intervened. There was no clear winner. Endastory.

There's clearly a reason that Dooku fled, and it wasn't because he thought he was about to take the win. Dooku wouldn't have ended the fight if he had it in hand, he would have killed Windu and been done.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
There's clearly a reason that Dooku fled, and it wasn't because he thought he was about to take the win. Dooku wouldn't have ended the fight if he had it in hand, he would have killed Windu and been done.

If a Jedi and a Sith are equal, the Sith will try to run. Sith are cowards, they won't take chances with their opponents, if they know that they don't have clear advantage.

Consider Palpatine trying to run away from Yoda despite being his equal.

Especially when a drawn out battle with Windu would have guaranteed his capture by the multiple Troopers and Jedi around.

Yoda came off looking superior to Sids... I don't get this whole.. they are equals bit... Sure, it's a very competitive fight.. and one Sids can take some wins.. But the majority would always go to Yoda... the movie and script seem to imply that very thing.

Yoda shouldn't be able to take more than 6/10 imo.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yoda came off looking superior to Sids... I don't get this whole.. they are equals bit... Sure, it's a very competitive fight.. and one Sids can take some wins.. But the majority would always go to Yoda... the movie and script seem to imply that very thing.

Maybe in a Saber duel.

But as for the All-Out, he didn't really look superior when he fled from Sidious. Or when Sidious was throwing multiple senate pods which Yoda was desperately dodging.

In force powers Sidious is slightly more powerful than Yoda Imho.

But yeah I agree Yoda's probably the superior swordsman. Which only gives Dooku even more credit for fighting on even terms with him 😛

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In force powers Sidious is slightly more powerful than Yoda Imho.

Revenge of the Sith does hint at this;

The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength.

Take it for what you want.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maybe in a Saber duel.

But as for the All-Out, he didn't really look superior when he fled from Sidious. Or when Sidious was throwing multiple senate pods which Yoda was desperately dodging.

In force powers Sidious is slightly more powerful than Yoda Imho.

But yeah I agree Yoda's probably the superior swordsman. Which only gives Dooku even more credit for fighting on even terms with him 😛

Ohhh in a sabers only battle no doubt Yoda is his superior. But the same in true in an all out sense. I don't get this when he "fled" from Sids? Sids was the one who tried to leave... and yoda even commented on this... If so powerful you are.. why leave? All out changes nothign really... Sids had the higher ground and was throwing down Pods at yoda. We all know wha tthe higher ground means.. and yet Yoda still overcame that and had sids on the ropes. Throwing pods down on yoda and it doing nothing yoda doesn't shown the slightest inkling of being superior. Sids go to weapon.. lighting.. was only absorbed and sent back at him.. with yoda seemingly on the verge of victory. Yes, yoda came off as superior and would always take a majority from sids.. even if it's 6/10

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ohhh in a sabers only battle no doubt Yoda is his superior. But the same in true in an all out sense. I don't get this when he "fled" from Sids? Sids was the one who tried to leave... and yoda even commented on this... If so powerful you are.. why leave? All out changes nothign really... Sids had the higher ground and was throwing down Pods at yoda. We all know wha tthe higher ground means.. and yet Yoda still overcame that and had sids on the ropes. Throwing pods down on yoda and it doing nothing yoda doesn't shown the slightest inkling of being superior. Sids go to weapon.. lighting.. was only absorbed and sent back at him.. with yoda seemingly on the verge of victory. Yes, yoda came off as superior and would always take a majority from sids.. even if it's 6/10

I see a stalemate for a majority tbh. But yeah maybe I'll give Yoda more wins than Sidious based on his Saber Prowess.

But I still think Sidious probably edges it out in Force powers which can negate Yoda's superior Saber prowess - shooting Saber out of his hand for example.

I have news for you all. Sidious is slightly better than Yoda in sabers:

"He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side," Gillard explains. "His character is so shrouded that his fighting style should be shrouded as well. The Emperor is deadly dangerous."- from the article "Master Behind the Action: Nick Gillard".

Doesn't say much. ''in a way'' because the dark side is more powerful than the light side. Didn't help him in the Senate Chamber.

And is Nick Gillard a canon source?

^ Per the official RotS script, Yoda managed to disarm Palpatine during their saber battle:

"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts."

...So I don't think I'm willing to say that Palps was the better swordsman. The above excerpt>>Gillard's ambiguous statement.

Thus my line ''Didn't help him in the Senate Chamber''.

In a strict duel, Yoda should take 7-8 imo.