Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Mace beating Sidious was circumstantial.
Agreed. Mace was lucky he brought 3 fodder jedi to distract Sidious or else Sidious would have just blitzed Windu before he could use Vaapad. It's been stated that Windu (and Fisto if it matters) could only bring their guard up once Sidious had raped Kolar and Tinn.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Mace beating Sidious was circumstantial.
No it wasn't. 😆 What is this Bullshit?
Originally posted by Vensai
Agreed. Mace was lucky he brought 3 fodder jedi to distract Sidious or else Sidious would have just blitzed Windu before he could use Vaapad. It's been stated that Windu (and Fisto if it matters) could only bring their guard up once Sidious had raped Kolar and Tinn.
Ah, which leaves it open-ended, because Kolar and Tinn could have been as powerful as Fisto and Windu, right? 😆
Fisto and Windu were prepared to fight Sidious; only Kolar and Tinn were too slow to react.
The idea that the other two Jedi were just as slow is simply Retarded.
If Sidious were fast enough to strike Windu, before he could react, then Windu have died in that duel, Period.
Kolar and Tinn were noticably below Fisto and especially Windu. Windu's defeat of Sidious isn't circumstantial - unlike Obi-wan's defeat of Anakin.
As the duel proved, both in the movie and novel, Sidious wasn't fast enough to lay a strike on Windu, but Windu was fast enough to edge Sidious out in speed and beat him.
Honestly though, what a stupid bullshit excuse; which Idiot thought that one up? 😆
Originally posted by Vensai
Chill, I'm just looking through all the possibilities. I am doubting Windu's initial speed without Vaapad because he literally was able to do nothing to prevent his allies' deaths in the movie.
Keep in mind that because the Jedi Masters were standing so closely together, they would have to be careful of what movements they quickly make, lest one accidentally bisect another.
That's even why Jedi Masters and their Padawans even have a set walking-distance, so that if they have to suddenly and without warning react to a danger, accidental bisection of one or the other does not occur.
Essentially, every Master there had to trust that the other would be able to handle themselves.
As well as the fact that Sidious knew Mace was second only to Yoda (and knew of Vapaad), and if he could have used an edge of speed and surprise to kill anyone there who was a true threat to him, he would have knocked Mace off first.
But he couldn't. He could only knock off those weaker first, to try and cull the numbers.
Originally posted by Visage
Keep in mind that because the Jedi Masters were standing so closely together, they would have to be careful of what movements they quickly make, lest one accidentally bisect another.That's even why Jedi Masters and their Padawans even have a set walking-distance, so that if they have to suddenly and without warning react to a danger, accidental bisection of one or the other does not occur.
Essentially, every Master there had to trust that the other would be able to handle themselves.
As well as the fact that Sidious knew Mace was second only to Yoda (and knew of Vapaad), and if he could have used an edge of speed and surprise to kill anyone there who was a true threat to him, he would have knocked Mace off first.
But he couldn't. He could only knock off those weaker first, to try and cull the numbers.
I see. Well that was rather silly of them to stand so close to one another. Though Windu was in the middle of his group and Sidious could have gotten surrounded by the other jedi if he chose to take on Windu at that moment without dealing with the side guards.
Originally posted by Vensai
I see. Well that was rather silly of them to stand so close to one another. Though Windu was in the middle of his group and Sidious could have gotten surrounded by the other jedi if he chose to take on Windu at that moment without dealing with the side guards.
With or without the others, it would have ended the same way.
Originally posted by Vensai
Agreed. Mace was lucky he brought 3 fodder jedi to distract Sidious or else Sidious would have just blitzed Windu before he could use Vaapad. It's been stated that Windu (and Fisto if it matters) could only bring their guard up once Sidious had raped Kolar and Tinn.
He wouldn't have blitzed Windu. But the 3 Jedi were a factor that changed how the fight began so shouldn't be ignored.
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Is it stated by an actual source that Windu is Dooku's equal?
Actually every source on the matter has Dooku =/> Windu.
Whilst I'm not aware of any source that states Windu > Dooku.
Hmm, why is that? I was under the impression that Vaapad drew on the Dark Side of the opposing side and powered the Jedi wielding it.I dunno if Anakin wins...I am not entirely convinced, especially because when it comes to force Windu is likely his better.
As for Anakin, his lightside performance is generally not as good, when he controlls his emotions. He wasn't as big problem for Dooku or Ventress. Windu most likely would actually outskill or Force handle such Anakin. But, if Anakin is really angry, he becomes unstoppable as he showed against Dooku in CW and Kenobi in RotS.
Originally posted by Arhael
Vaapad is a combat style and state of mind, not a Force power. I see it as Windu feeding on emotions of opponent, not his Force energy. So Windu gets empowered
by opponent as much as his inner potential allows. Windu was still less powerful than Sidious.
👆
This is how I'm interpreting it as well.
Sidious's Rage and Power aided Mace to fight at his own full potential. But he never actually equaled Sidious in force power.
And I've yet to see a source that claims Mace literally siphons the force power from a dark side opponent.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He wouldn't have blitzed Windu. But the 3 Jedi were a factor that changed how the fight began so shouldn't be ignored.Actually every source on the matter has Dooku =/> Windu.
Whilst I'm not aware of any source that states Windu > Dooku.
👆
Every source book says Dooku defeated Windu in sparring. And even Dark Rendezvous suggests that if anyone has the edge it's the good Count.
DR made no such reference to Dooku having the edge. Dooku was also older than Mace and these sparring sessions happened when Dooku had more expereince under his belt. I'm still waiting on that source somebody claimed existed that stated Mace had fully developed Vaaped and Shatterpoint when these sparring sessions took place. Furthermore, it's still SPARRING.
Anyways, Mace wins and wins pretty easily. Mace's force powers are WELL above Anakin's.. He literally wouldn't need to move out of his chair and throw Anakin around. Which WINS of Anakin make anybody believe he could beat Mace is beyond me. Against and OLDER Dooku who was clearly pas this prime.. not only past his prime but expended vital energy fighting off TWO people first and not going for the kill? That is why people believe he beats Mace? JESUS :FACEPALM:
Windu would draw up on Anakin's rage/dark energies and send it right back into his face.
I don't doubt that Anakin gets blitzed here, especially because he described Windu's single blade seeming to be 100. And the fact that Windu while in his "Vaapad Trance" was faster than Sidious, who in turn, Anakin couldn't even keep up with with his eyes.
Anakin stands NO chance whatsoever here.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
DR made no such reference to Dooku having the edge. Dooku was also older than Mace and these sparring sessions happened when Dooku had more expereince under his belt. I'm still waiting on that source somebody claimed existed that stated Mace had fully developed Vaaped and Shatterpoint when these sparring sessions took place. Furthermore, it's still SPARRING.
"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground."
Seems pretty clear who would have the edge.
There is no canon source that states Dooku got weaker since he left the Order. Evidence seems to lean towards the opposite.
Anakin and Dooku are different cases. Dooku didn't draw from rage and try to crush his enemies. He was calm, and refined in his battles, making Vaapad's ability to redirect such rather useless.
Anakin, on the other hand, draws from an incredible amount of rage and is an extremely offensive fighter. Mace would tap into that power and open himself up to the Dark Side, basically giving him unthinkable strength and speed, thus allowing him to blitz the Skywalker.
Anyone who can match the Emperor is more than a match for Skywalker.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anyways, Mace wins and wins pretty easily. Mace's force powers are WELL above Anakin's.. He literally wouldn't need to move out of his chair and throw Anakin around. Which WINS of Anakin make anybody believe he could beat Mace is beyond me. Against and OLDER Dooku who was clearly pas this prime.. not only past his prime but expended vital energy fighting off TWO people first and not going for the kill? That is why people believe he beats Mace? JESUS :FACEPALM:
Dooku's TK is above even Yoda and yet Anakin resisted.
Yes, yes, not even Yoda's TK compares to Dooku's and there is plenty of evidence for that.
Yoda showed his TK prowess against Ventress, he pulled lightsabers out of her hands. Dooku did the same to more powerful Ventress. Apart from that Dooku Force handled Kenobi, while fending off Anakin, which is far more impressive than Force handling Ventress in 1 on 1 fight without distraction from another combatant.
Yoda's best feats are lifting huge metal pillar and a starfighter, which he did through heavy concentration. Dooku Force crushed that pillar without heavy concentration, while in saber lock with Yoda. Imho that's far more impressive. Apart from that Dooku broke metal platform after Force handling Kenobi. In CW Dooku, also, broke metal structure in one of the episodes.
Finally, in Jedi vs Sith guide to the Force Yoda stated that he can lift only 5 training rocks. Dooku, when training Opress, demonstrated lifting much more rocks than that.
Considering all of the above it makes sense why Yoda didn't try to Force handle Dooku like Ventress and was on the defensive instead.
Try to prove that Windu's TK is at least on parr with Yoda before comparing him to Dooku.