Anakin Skywalker (ROTS) VS. Mace Windu (ROTS)

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
DR made no such reference to Dooku having the edge.

MY has given you the quote. Not to mention Yoda claims it was Dooku who was the Temple's strongest ever student and most learned in the ways of the Force. NOT Mace.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Dooku was also older than Mace and these sparring sessions happened when Dooku had more expereince under his belt.

Mace had enough experience also. They don't just appoint newbys as head of the Jedi Council.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm still waiting on that source somebody claimed existed that stated Mace had fully developed Vaaped and Shatterpoint when these sparring sessions took place.

MY has given it multiple times.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furthermore, it's still SPARRING.

It's one of 3 quotes that puts Dooku =/> Mace. Where are the quotes that puts Mace > Dooku? I've never seen or heard of them.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anyways, Mace wins and wins pretty easily.

As usual you greatly underestimate Skywalker.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Mace's force powers are WELL above Anakin's.. He literally wouldn't need to move out of his chair and throw Anakin around.

Now your just going overboard KT. Mace isn't Sidious.

Skywalker has tanked off all of Dooku's Force TK attacks. And most recently he's force choked Ventress. And put Dark Side Barriss out with a mean Force wave.

The chances of Mace owning(or even defeating) ROTS Skywalker with the Force is substantially decreasing with each season of TCW.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which WINS of Anakin make anybody believe he could beat Mace is beyond me. Against and OLDER Dooku who was clearly pas this prime.. not only past his prime but expended vital energy fighting off TWO people first and not going for the kill? That is why people believe he beats Mace? JESUS :FACEPALM:

I keep hearing this speculation. How was Dooku past his prime? Where's the proof of this? He was one of the most powerful Jedi Knights who had ever lived. And an "Even Greater" Sith Lord.(ROTS Novel) He was only a Sith Lord in his old age.

And if you want to use the excuse that Skywalker only won because Kenobi helped him for a few seconds(unlikely looking at their CW fights). Then fine. What's Mace shown? Defeating Sidious with the aid of 3 Jedi Masters, who also cost Sidious precious seconds in the fight that he could have used to go all out on Sidious.

Sidious may have used precious energy to dispose of those 3 Masters before engaging Mace.

Did you watch the clone wars movie? What Windu did to the droid army is above ANYTHING dooku has EVER done. Further.. at NO point did Yoda try and TK anakin or Kenobi.. so those examples for Dooku doing so are mutually inclusive for Yoda.

Further, when did Dooku try and TK Anakin? Can I see where he tried to do that in the movie or novel. Further, and the more appropriate proof for this fight and in general... Is that Anakin couldn't even overhwelm Kenobi with his TK.. who as we know.. has pretty weak TK resistance shown over and over again. This undisputably means Mace's TK's is well above Anakin's and thus my statement was spot on.

Further about Yoda and Dooku... Funny how Dooku tried to Tk stuff at yoda.. and if his was stronger than yoda.. couldn't overpowered Yoda's TK resistance to said objects... It couldn't and yoda causually threw the stuff away. Force crushing a SMALL part of a pillar DOESN'T equal.. having to lift the ENTIRETY of the pillar. Yoda's is actually more impresisve and I'm not sure how you think othwerise. Further, Yoda TK'd the emperior and the emperor couldn't stop him from doing so. Let's play your game... Dooku's TK isn't on the same level as Sids.. Dooku knew he was no match for Sids.. Yoda did TK Sids... which is MORE impressive than ANYBODY dooku TK. I like this game. Try again?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Further, when did Dooku try and TK Anakin?

He does it all the time in TCW. Why do you always ignore that?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
MY has given you the quote. Not to mention Yoda claims it was Dooku who was the Temple's strongest ever student and most learned in the ways of the Force. NOT Mace.

Mace had enough experience also. They don't just appoint newbys as head of the Jedi Council.

MY has given it multiple times.

It's one of 3 quotes that puts Dooku =/> Mace. Where are the quotes that puts Mace > Dooku? I've never seen or heard of them.

As usual you greatly underestimate Skywalker.

Now your just going overboard KT. Mace isn't Sidious.

Skywalker has tanked off all of Dooku's Force TK attacks. And most recently he's force choked Ventress. And put Dark Side Barriss out with a mean Force wave.

The chances of Mace owning(or even defeating) ROTS Skywalker with the Force is substantially decreasing with each season of TCW.

I keep hearing this speculation. How was Dooku past his prime? Where's the proof of this? He was one of the most powerful Jedi Knights who had ever lived. And an "Even Greater" Sith Lord.(ROTS Novel) He was only a Sith Lord in his old age.

And if you want to use the excuse that Skywalker only won because Kenobi helped him for a few seconds(unlikely looking at their CW fights). Then fine. What's Mace shown? Defeating Sidious with the aid of 3 Jedi Masters, who also cost Sidious precious seconds in the fight that he could have used to go all out on Sidious.

Sidious may have used precious energy to dispose of those 3 Masters before engaging Mace.

Common sense... Dooku was close to the same age as Kenobi in ANH.. and Kenobi CLEARLY PAST HIS PRIME. Are you claiming Dooku WAS in his Prime? Or are you merely stating that Dooku was close enough to his prime?

Further, you do agree dooku is OLDER and MORE EXPERIENCED than Mace right? This you agree, but go, Mace had enough experience? Huh? Even a year or two experience more can make ALL the difference in the world. We see this over and over again in the mythos. True or not? Dooku had years on Mace...

Further WHERE IS THE QUOTE stating Mace had FULLY MASTERED Vaapad and S.P. where sparring Dooku.. He has NEVER provided such quotes.. I've asked for them and still haven't seen them. ALso, where is it stated Mace was on the head of the council during said sparring session. THere are A LOT of quotes to get here guys...

You could try and use that analogy but it fails miserably.. and I mean miserably... Dooku was stated in canon narration to have expended energies fighting them off.. Sids has ZERO ZILTCH NADA narration stating he expended any energy disposing of the jedi masters. Which of course is consistent with what we see.. Dooku fighting Kenobi and Anakin much much longer than Sids "foght" the masters.

I don't underestimate Anakin like you think.. I just know he has zero chance to beat Mace. WHO and I SAY THIS AGAIN WHO WHO WHO has Anakin beaten that is on the level of Sids?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He does it all the time in TCW. Why do you always ignore that?

You mean the times when it ACTUALLY WORKED but doesn't end the fight? I'm referring to the time Anakin actually won.. when did Dooku TRY and TK him then? maybe a reason why Aankin won eh? hmmmmmmm you're digging yourself a hole big buddy..

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean the times when it ACTUALLY WORKED but doesn't end the fight? I'm referring to the time Anakin actually won.. when did Dooku TRY and TK him then? maybe a reason why Aankin won eh? hmmmmmmm you're digging yourself a hole big buddy..

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Anakin and Dooku are different cases. Dooku didn't draw from rage and try to crush his enemies. He was calm, and refined in his battles, making Vaapad's ability to redirect such rather useless.

Anakin, on the other hand, draws from an incredible amount of rage and is an extremely offensive fighter. Mace would tap into that power and open himself up to the Dark Side, basically giving him unthinkable strength and speed, thus allowing him to blitz the Skywalker.

Anyone who can match the Emperor is more than a match for Skywalker.

Blitz Skywalker by tapping into his rage??? :/

I've already said that Vaapad is state of mind. Power is emotions and I can back it up by multiple evidence.

Darth Bane:
"Bane, drawing strength from the horror of their deaths, rose to his feet, coming into view like an apparition disgorged from the bowels of the planet.

"Nooo!" the father howled, desperately clutching his youngest son to his chest. "Spare this one, my lord!" he begged, tears streaming down his face. "He's the youngest. The last one I have."

Those weak enough to beg for mercy do not deserve it.

Still too weak to even raise his arms Bane reached out once more with the Force, bringing the lightsaber up to hover over his helpless victims. He waited, letting their horror mount, then plunged the burning blade into the young boy's heart.

The father clutched the corpse to his breast, his tortured laments echoing across the empty battlefield. "Why? Why did you have to kill them? Bane feasted on his anguish, gorging himself, feeling the dark side growing stronger in him. The symptoms of the poison receded enough so that he could raise his arm without the muscles trembling. The lightsaber sprang to his hand".

New Rebelion:
"Then Kueller laughed, a gurgling, familiar laugh. The Emperor's laugh, the unamused choking of a slave to the dark side.

Fueled by hatred, anger, and fear.

Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger. Kueller slammed his blade against Luke's, and the sparks lit the area all around them. Luke parried. Parried again. And again. He was trapped in a cycle of hatred and anger. If he fought, Kueller got stronger, and if he attacked, Kueller got stronger still".

Emotions is what gives power but by what margin it empowers depends on potential.

You are right, Windu would tap into Anakin's rage but it would never make him equally powerful. Anakin's potential is much higher, so by default he will benefit from rage more than Windu.

The above made NO sense... no sense at all.. So vaaped helped beat soembody above Anakin at that point in time.. WELL above Anakin I might add. It doesn't matter what Anakin could've been, that is speculation and not applicable. What we DO know is that Sids was FAR above Anakin across the board... So Vaapad could help Mace match Sids but couldn't do the same to Anakin because his potential is higher.. a big WTF are you talking about here is in order

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The above made NO sense... no sense at all.. So vaaped helped beat soembody above Anakin at that point in time.. WELL above Anakin I might add. It doesn't matter what Anakin could've been, that is speculation and not applicable. What we DO know is that Sids was FAR above Anakin across the board... So Vaapad could help Mace match Sids but couldn't do the same to Anakin because his potential is higher.. a big WTF are you talking about here is in order

Dooku was 90 in ROTS and Kenobi was i believe 57 in ANH

Originally posted by Acasha
Dooku was 90 in ROTS and Kenobi was i believe 57 in ANH

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove Mace Windu got stronger since Dark Rendezvous

Read the RotS novel and make note of where it refers to Mace being a far more effective warrior AFTER Shatterpoint.

There you shall find your answer.

Originally posted by Arhael
But, if Anakin is really angry, he becomes unstoppable as he showed against Dooku in CW and Kenobi in RotS.

Uhm... Kenobi stopped him. 😉

Originally posted by Arhael
Blitz Skywalker by tapping into his rage??? :/

I've already said that Vaapad is state of mind. Power is emotions and I can back it up by multiple evidence.

Darth Bane:
"Bane, drawing strength from the horror of their deaths, rose to his feet, coming into view like an apparition disgorged from the bowels of the planet.

"Nooo!" the father howled, desperately clutching his youngest son to his chest. "Spare this one, my lord!" he begged, tears streaming down his face. "He's the youngest. The last one I have."

Those weak enough to beg for mercy do not deserve it.

Still too weak to even raise his arms Bane reached out once more with the Force, bringing the lightsaber up to hover over his helpless victims. He waited, letting their horror mount, then plunged the burning blade into the young boy's heart.

The father clutched the corpse to his breast, his tortured laments echoing across the empty battlefield. "Why? Why did you have to kill them? Bane feasted on his anguish, gorging himself, feeling the dark side growing stronger in him. The symptoms of the poison receded enough so that he could raise his arm without the muscles trembling. The lightsaber sprang to his hand".

New Rebelion:
"Then Kueller laughed, a gurgling, familiar laugh. The Emperor's laugh, the unamused choking of a slave to the dark side.

Fueled by hatred, anger, and fear.

Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger. Kueller slammed his blade against Luke's, and the sparks lit the area all around them. Luke parried. Parried again. And again. He was trapped in a cycle of hatred and anger. If he fought, Kueller got stronger, and if he attacked, Kueller got stronger still".

Emotions is what gives power but by what margin it empowers depends on potential.

You are right, Windu would tap into Anakin's rage but it would never make him equally powerful. Anakin's potential is much higher, so by default he will benefit from rage more than Windu.

That doesn't prove anything regarding Vaapad. It is stated that it is both a state of mind and a fighting style, not just a state of mind. It says so in the RotS novelization during Windu's fight against Sidious. Like it or not, Vaapad is more effective against the dark side. That's just how it works. It utilizes the power of darkness within the opponent and turns it against him/her. If the opponent is a light sider, such as Yoda, it's only logical to deduce it won't work to its full potential because Yoda's darkness is practically nonexistent.

And you just made that up that BS about the potential being a factor.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
WHO and I SAY THIS AGAIN WHO WHO WHO has Anakin beaten that is on the level of Sids?

The Son and The Daughter.

Beat that.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Read the RotS novel and make note of where it refers to Mace being a far more effective warrior AFTER Shatterpoint.

There you shall find your answer.

DR takes place after Shatterpoint.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Uhm... Kenobi stopped him. 😉

Being a Dumbass made him stoppable.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sidious was above Anakin in terms of Force mastery, not power.
Windu matched Sidious in saber skill, not power. His power inferiority still remained as evidenced from how he nearly got overpowered by lightning despite the fact that blocking with lightsaber is much easier technique than doing it with bare hands like Yoda.

That's is not applicable so who cares about that point. Nobody is arguing they become an exact clone of the person they are matching... The only relevant point is that it increases their battle formidability up and allow them to match or exceed what they might normally be able to. That is the only relevant part.

As somebody affirmed what I said... Dooku was 83 by the time of ROTS... Kenobi was in his 50 something... Kenobi was considered past his prime... AS was Dooku when Anakin beat him. IN fact, narration suggests that before turning to the DS... Dooku had contemplated retirement from active duty.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Like it or not, Vaapad is more effective against the dark side. That's just how it works. It utilizes the power of darkness within the opponent and turns it against him/her.

It gives Mace a Boost as he draws in his opponent's rage. And utilizes the power of that rage for himself. But what Arhael is saying is that he utilizes that through his own force potential. As in Mace fights at his own peak level when his opponent has massive amounts of rage.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As somebody affirmed what I said... Dooku was 83 by the time of ROTS... Kenobi was in his 50 something... Kenobi was considered past his prime... AS was Dooku when Anakin beat him. IN fact, narration suggests that before turning to the DS... Dooku had contemplated retirement from active duty.

Yeah except he was more powerful as a Sith than he ever was as a Jedi.

And who says Kenobi was past his prime due to age? Is Darth Vader your source?

You mean besides him clearly LOOKING older...you mean besides Vadar sensing his powers were weaker. Yeah I'll take the obvious perception of Kenobi aging and Vaders word over.... somebody not involved in the making of the movie going 😛utting his hands over his ears and going no I don't believe it:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It gives Mace a Boost as he draws in his opponent's rage. And utilizes the power of that rage for himself. But what Arhael is saying is that he utilizes that through his own force potential. As in Mace fights at his own peak level when his opponent has massive amounts of rage

Drawing from the opponent's rage is only part of what Vaapad does. Apart from de drawing from that rage Vaapad allows the user to use the darkness of the opponent against him/herself. It's both things.