yet.. this same General couldn't be bested by Mace in sabers and was taken out by the force. The same mace with a hit strike greater than Dooku.. Odd..
I have read the novel my friend.. and in the movie and in the Novel.. Yoda came across as his superior. Even in the nexus Yoda came across as superior. Each time Dooku fled, not the other way around. Dooku is very good in sabers.. but so is Kenobi
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
yet.. this same General couldn't be bested by Mace in sabers and was taken out by the force.
Just because he didn't get around to Saber besting him in that instance doesn't mean he couldn't. You know how many times in the CW Kenobi has resorted to using the Force to best Grievous?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and was taken out by the force. The same mace with a hit strike greater than Dooku.. Odd..
I assume you have a source for this and your not just making it up simply because Mace has a couple of speed narrations whilst Dooku doesn't. As far as I'm aware Yoda doesn't have such speed narrations either.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I have read the novel my friend.. and in the movie and in the Novel.. Yoda came across as his superior. Even in the nexus Yoda came across as superior. Each time Dooku fled, not the other way around. Dooku is very good in sabers.. but so is Kenobi
The movie was the final and canon version of the fight which is very different to the Novel version. Yoda doesn't stand in one place deflecting all Dooku's best Saber attacks and he doesn't have Dooku skipping back desperately.
They seemed to have fought on even terms with Yoda having the edge at most.
But if you want to go by the novel it does state Yoda was exhausted after their fight. Which actually isn't rendered non-canon by the movie.
Also the fight in DR was much more even then people make out. And if you want to use that source then it's best not to ignore or put aside the narration that Dooku and Mace are equals, as that quote was given during that same fight.
Yeah in the novel Yoda comes across as even more superior than the movie.. which only helps my point not hurt it. Didn't they meet another time in a DS nexus?
Further, so you DO have a strike count for Dooku? Then please post the narration. If not, then let's not assume he's on par with Windu, who as far as i know, has the highest count ever stated.
Anyway as for this thread, in pure Sabers Obi-Wan will prove a difficult challenge to any of the top-tiers. I do believe now being The Master of Soresu isn't just a nice quote but actually means something.
Neither Maul or Opress could land even one hit on Kenobi whilst he was landing mutiple hits on them. Sith Anakin also couldn't defeat him.
So I can't say for sure that Dooku will. If he does it will be difficult.
On the other hand if he doesn't I doubt Kenobi's going to defeat him either.
And I agree with MY that Fisto will get taken out at some point. Dooku showed the ability to defend himself against Anakin and Obi-Wan. So he will have a much easier time defending against Fisto and Obi-Wan. But at some point Fisto's defenses will fail.
This is what it comes down to.. All dooku has is comparing him with Mace and Yoda is narration about sparring. NOTHING MORE. Sparring is well, just sparring. It isn't a life or death situation and not even close to the same. Is dooku one of the top duelist in the mythos.. sure.. he's upper tier.. but he has nothing putting him on Mace or Yoda's level. They have BATTLE feats putting them there.. Yoda coming across as superior both times they met in battle... Yoda coming across as superior to Sids.. We have Mace beating Sids... All these BATTLE feats carry much more weight than... SPARRING SESSIONS. The whole point is.. Kenobi can outduel dooku in a sabers only fight.. he outdueled somebody who became stronger in sabers turning to the DS.. yet beat Dooku when he was still a level 9. Kenobi beat him.. yet I'm suppose to believe he has no chance to beat dooku? Nah.. not buying it. Kenobi is in his prime.. Dooku isn't. That makes a big difference. I believe Kenobi can outlast dooku in a sabers only battle.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway as for this thread, in pure Sabers Obi-Wan will prove a difficult challenge to any of the top-tiers. I do believe now being The Master of Soresu isn't just a nice quote but actually means something.Neither Maul or Opress could land even one hit on Kenobi whilst he was landing mutiple hits on them. Sith Anakin also couldn't defeat him.
So I can't say for sure that Dooku will. If he does it will be difficult.
On the other hand if he doesn't I doubt Kenobi's going to defeat him either.
And I agree with MY that Fisto will get taken out at some point. Dooku showed the ability to defend himself against Anakin and Obi-Wan. So he will have a much easier time defending against Fisto and Obi-Wan. But at some point Fisto's defenses will fail.
We are in agreement then.. I pretty much feel the exact same way DP.. Finally we agree lol 🙂 😛 💃
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yeah in the novel Yoda comes across as even more superior than the movie.. which only helps my point not hurt it.
It's too different to be considered canon. And it left Yoda exhausted anyway.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Further, so you DO have a strike count for Dooku? Then please post the narration. If not, then let's not assume he's on par with Windu, who as far as i know, has the highest count ever stated.
So shall I assume Windu is faster than Yoda as well since Yoda doesn't have a strike count either?
Windu and Dooku are confirmed to be pretty equal in Sabers by DR. So there's no reason for you to assume Windu is substantially superior.
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaKenobi's defenses could barely keep up with Grievous, the same Grievous. Dooku embarrases whenever they train.
You need to watch RotS again. Kenobi was beating Grievous handily. Chopping of two of his arms in about a minute does not indicate he could barely keep up with him. Quite the opposite, actually.
Kenobi is one of the few Jedi who Dooku warns Grievous not to seek out in the battlefield.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That is your evidence man... REALLY? So tell me then.. WHEN were these battles and why were Dooku, Mace and Yoda all fighting TO THE DEATH or BATTLING as you call it. Please cite these fights and where they occured. Some random HYPERBOLIC statement WITH NO DETAILS isn't evidence. That would be circumstancial evidence at best in a court of law. So, please enlighten me on when these BATTLES took place.
Jedi don't battle to the death numb nuts. Generally they fight to disarm.
Example is Agen Kolar vs. Quinlan Vos.
"Yield that would have been your arm"
Same concept in a sparring match. How the hell do you think Jedi Masters get so good?
The concept that 'Oh it wasn't a fight to the death so it doesn't count' is absurd. The only saber duels that are to the death didn't occur until the Clone Wars. And those were the first 'to the death' saber duels in hundreds of years. And yet Yoda and Mace were the greatest blademasters in the order's 20,000+ year history.
Also let's not forget that Vaapad only requires enjoyment in the battle, and no where is it stated that it cannot be applied in a sparring match.
In fact, when Quinlan Vos applies a Vaapad manuver MID-SPAR with Windu, he comments on it. So don't give me that. 'Mace was holding back' 'it was a sparring match' bullshit. It's not gonna fly here.
These battles were obviously referring to sparring sessions were are a common thing. Sparring SESSION AREN'T LIFE AND DEATH SITUATIONS. Plus you forgot to factor in that Dooku was much older than Mace and had more experience as well. You must also remember that Mace couldn't use Vaapad or Shatterpoint to the level and degree he could in a no holds barred fight. Doesn't get more circumstancial than that.
Give me a quote that says Mace was holding back. You are also ignoring the ****ing narrative that states that they are equal.
You also forgot that THE reason Anakin was a level 9 was because HE TURNED to the DS. Without doing so, he was a level 8 like Kenobi. So no, those things you mentioned didn't deter him from being a level 9. As I've stated Kenobi had just as much confliction about killing what he considered his son.. than a angry Anakin had about killing him. In fact, one could argue, Kenobi would be holding back more.
Yes you can you nitwit. You keep referencing the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight. A fight where.
1. Anakin was fighting his ****ing father figure.
2. Anakin had just choked his wife, and the whole reason he turend the the damned Dark Side in the first place, half to death,
3. He was just crying because of the massacres he had committed.
4. HE WAS CONFLICTED.
Obi-Wan on the other hand was resolved to put down Anakin the moment he saw what a monster he had become. That entire fight was a big low end showing. Every piece of canon made since ROTS has stated and made it blatantly obvious that Anakin is Obi-Wan's superior.
I am tired of people on this board disregarding that.
Just like people disregarding that Dooku has been stated to be Mace's superior in raw swordsmanship, multiple times.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yeah in the novel Yoda comes across as even more superior than the movie.. which only helps my point not hurt it. Didn't they meet another time in a DS nexus?Further, so you DO have a strike count for Dooku? Then please post the narration. If not, then let's not assume he's on par with Windu, who as far as i know, has the highest count ever stated.
Oh my God. If someone has the speed to parry a strike count of 24 hits per second. Then they are able to replicate speed of that level. Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, are all those people.
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You need to watch RotS again. Kenobi was beating Grievous handily. Chopping of two of his arms in about a minute does not indicate he could barely keep up with him. Quite the opposite, actually.Kenobi is one of the few Jedi who Dooku warns Grievous not to seek out in the battlefield.
That's not what I'm saying. Obi-Wan begins to win when he goes on the offensive. Before that happens his defenses are being overloaded as per ROTS novelization.
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Ah, as per the the RotS novelization.A question, does the canon from the movie overrule the novelizatons' if they contradict each other?
They don't contradict each other. Until Kenobi sees a whole in the General's offensive and cuts off his arm, he's being pushed back and can't do shit.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku takes this
I don't think Dooku is overwhelming superior to Kenobi in sabers (he has the feats that you could argue he's on a similar level) but Fisto fails in this match up. Not only is Form 1 weak against Form 2, but he has trouble against Ventress, let alone Dooku. If Kenobi had a less sucky partner, I'd be more confident he could take this. Unless of course, you give Fisto two sabers. 😆
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is what it comes down to.. All dooku has is comparing him with Mace and Yoda is narration about sparring. NOTHING MORE. Sparring is well, just sparring. It isn't a life or death situation and not even close to the same. Is dooku one of the top duelist in the mythos.. sure.. he's upper tier.. but he has nothing putting him on Mace or Yoda's level. They have BATTLE feats putting them there.. Yoda coming across as superior both times they met in battle... Yoda coming across as superior to Sids.. We have Mace beating Sids... All these BATTLE feats carry much more weight than... SPARRING SESSIONS.
Windu who was not holding back had an qual fight with Sora Bulq. The same Bulq, with the aid of Tholme, was just destroyed by Count. In terms of sabers, when Dooku throwed out one lightsaber from his hand, and the force.
This could go either way tbh.
Dooku's case:
He's beaten AOTC Kenobi in sabers (although Kenobi may have been a bit worn down in the Geonosis arena);
Able to hold his own against tanks like Yoda.
Kenobi's Case:
Defeated Sith Anakin who, most would assume can defeat Dooku;
Experience of fighting in the clone wars, both Anakin and Kenobi greatly improved since AOTC;
In ROTS, Dooku was only able to knock out Kenobi through the force, and this is a saber thread;
He has Kit Fisto with him.
My personal view is that Kenobi and Fisto can win this fight, but Dooku has always done a good job of intimidating Kenobi.
So i'd say team takes this 8/10 times.