Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiEither post the exact quotes OR provide me with the source in which said quotes can be found. Unless they are of an equal canonicity to GL's own words, then I simply will not regard them with any sort of esteem next to the evidence I posted.
and you're ignoring the CANON narration stating he became more powerful.. faulty faulty faulty. That narration isn't my opinion.
Originally posted by Galan007
Either post the exact quotes OR provide me with the source in which said quotes can be found. Unless they are of an equal canonicity to GL's own words, then I simply will not regard them with any sort of esteem next to the evidence I posted.
They are from the Offical Star Wars site... and I'm looking for the references in the novel..
Again though, NOBODY is arguing he felt guilt or remorse.. That isn't the argument. So giving credence to your quotes isn't the question or argument buddy. The argument is you're saying it greatly hindered him in his fight with Kenobi.. I'm staying it didn't effect him to any noticeable degree. THAT is the argument. You haven't posted ANY narration even hinting at him doing poorly or holdging back against Kenobi in the least. Nothing. There IS narration stating that Kenobi was conflicted about killing Anakin.. Anakin never stated such a confliction. So if anything, the narration points to Kenobi having doubt and holding back.. not anakin. If you have any narration stating it negatively effected him or caused him to fight badly against Kenobi.. I'm all ears.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiYou're horrendously dodging/ignoring the point... And you still failed to provide the actual quote/statement I asked you for.
They are from the Offical Star Wars site... and I'm looking for the references in the novel..Again though, NOBODY is arguing he felt guilt or remorse.. That isn't the argument. So giving credence to your quotes isn't the question or argument buddy. The argument is you're saying it greatly hindered him in his fight with Kenobi.. I'm staying it didn't effect him to any noticeable degree. THAT is the argument. You haven't posted ANY narration even hinting at him doing poorly or holdging back against Kenobi in the least. Nothing. There IS narration stating that Kenobi was conflicted about killing Anakin.. Anakin never stated such a confliction. So if anything, the narration points to Kenobi having doubt and holding back.. not anakin. If you have any narration stating it negatively effected him or caused him to fight badly against Kenobi.. I'm all ears.
Again:
Anakin felt conflicted. He felt remorseful. He felt guilty. Don't be obtuse and act like those emotions made him more powerful-- they obviously would have hindered him more than anything. He didn't even want to be a Sith for crying out loud. If you feel guilty about what you're doing, for example, you're going to be more prone to making mistakes. If you feel remorseful about what you're doing, for example, then you might subconsciously hold back a bit. Etc.(these are basic psychological concepts, btw.)
Once more: per Lucas Anakin was a mindphucked mess who was ashamed of the choices he'd made. A sound and confident mind(when he fought Dooku)>>a conflicted, guilty and remorseful mind(when he fought Kenobi). Simple.
Errr I feel like you're doing the exact same thing.. I'm asking for REFERENCES or NARRATION stating it hindered him IN ANYWAY.. You have provided none. So then, you'll agree that the only proof you have is your own opinion on how it MIGHT HAVE effected him correct? Further, as I stated.. there are LEVELS of feeling guilty or remorseful true or no? So, how do you know Anakin felt AS gulity as you claim him to be and thus hindering his ability with NO narration supporting such a view. Why is it so hard to post any evidence supporting it hurting him? If they felt it did.. they would've made some narration talking about how he wasn't fighting at 100% instead they made NO narration. NONE. In fact, we know per count Dooku that the angrier he gets the more powerful he becomes.. he was pretty angry against Kenobi.. I saw NO indication of gulity or remorese when he was attacking and driving back kenobi.. do you? If so please point out where? If not, then concede the point that this is only your opinion that it did, not a fact. It would only be a fact, if there was some proof or mention that it did.. there is none.
Feeling a little guility or remorseful.. doesn't mean it will effect you in a fight. For example, you could feel pretty guilty when you're sitting there watching TV thinking about the money you stole from your friend. Yet, if you try and get your money stolen and you have to fight.. I don't think those thoughts would hinder you one bit. Anakin was pissed in a rage... he wasn't thinking about being guilty.. he was trying to kill kenobi.. tnohing more.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiIt's called *simple* logic.
Errr I feel like you're doing the exact same thing.. I'm asking for REFERENCES or NARRATION stating it hindered him IN ANYWAY.
Per Lucas, Anakin felt guilty, ashamed, remorseful, doubtful, and conflicted about everything he'd done... Christ, when Anakin was alone on Mustafar, he was literally crying over all the evil things he'd done-- so obviously he felt far more than just "a little" guilty. Those type of negative feelings simply do not strengthen a Jedi or Sith... They ONLY hinder. To assume otherwise is pure idiocy, imo.
Anakin was essentially fighting for a cause he did NOT believe in... A cause he felt horrible supporting-- hence GL's separate comments:
"The tear in this scene[when Anakin is alone on Mustafar after murdering the Federation members] shows that Anakin knows what he's doing is wrong, but he has now committed himself to a path he may not agree with."
"If Anakin had to turn to the dark side all over again, he probably wouldn't have."
...Yet in lieu of such blatant facts, you still feel that Anakin was "more powerful than ever." Sorry, but that literally makes no sense at all.
Originally posted by Galan007
It's called *simple* logic.Per Lucas, Anakin felt guilty, ashamed, remorseful, doubtful, and conflicted about everything he'd done... Christ, when Anakin was alone on Mustafar, he was literally crying over all the evil things he'd done-- so obviously he felt far more than just "a little" guilty. Those type of negative feelings simply do not strengthen a Jedi or Sith... They ONLY hinder. To assume otherwise is pure idiocy, imo.
Anakin was essentially fighting for a cause he did NOT believe in... A cause he felt horrible supporting-- hence GL's separate comments:
"The tear in this scene[when Anakin is alone on Mustafar after murdering the Federation members] shows that Anakin knows what he's doing is wrong, but he has now committed himself to a path he may not agree with."
"If Anakin had to turn to the dark side all over again, he probably wouldn't have."
...Yet in lieu of such blatant facts, you still feel that Anakin was "more powerful than ever." Sorry, but that literally makes no sense at all.
He saw it as a means to an end. He was going to kill the Emperor later and take over the galaxy with Padme at his side. Sure he felt sorry for his actions, but he felt it was worth it for Padme's future happiness. And he ended up in a pool of lava for his trouble.
Originally posted by VensaiGL outright said that Anakin's actions bothered him to such an extent that he literally regretted turning to the dark side-- hence him crying on Mustafar.
He saw it as a means to an end. He was going to kill the Emperor later and take over the galaxy with Padme at his side. Sure he felt sorry for his actions, but he felt it was worth it for Padme's future happiness. And he ended up in a pool of lava for his trouble.
Either way, shame/guilt/remorse/doubt/conflict-- those emotions do not strengthen, they weaken(look at any force-user who has ever taken doubt with them into a saber fight, for example.) That is my only point.
Originally posted by Galan007
GL outright said that Anakin's actions bothered him to such an extent that he literally regretted turning to the dark side-- hence him crying on Mustafar.Either way, shame/guilt/remorse/doubt/conflict-- those emotions do not strengthen, they weaken(look at any force-user who has ever taken doubt with them into a saber fight, for example.) That is my only point.
Canonically Anakin's combat prowess during fight with Kenobi was on parr with Yoda and Windu, despite popular believe that his performance was hampered.
Proof that Anakin is on parr with Sidious, Yoda and Mace in sabers:
"In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine [out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious". - The making of RotS.
Proof that levels are established by Lucas:
"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting." - Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126
Proof that Anakin became level 9 by turning to darkside:
"To design and choreograph the sequence as well as the myriad other action-packed scenes in Revenge of the Sith Gillard says he first discussed with writer-director George Lucas the fighting prowess of each of the characters, which were ranked against other Jedi on a scale of 1 to 10.
Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented but he hasn't learned the mental side of it". - Dueling Jedi article
Originally posted by ArhaelGetting his arms and legs chopped off, before nearly burning to death represents the best performance of Anakin's life, you say? Lol, your definition of "best" must be a LOT different than mine.
What relevance does it have to actual fight with Kenobi? During fight Anakin demonstrated the best performance in his life.
Personally, I think Anakin's rather effortless slaying of Dooku(a guy who was on par with "level-9-Yoda" in sabers) represents a VASTLY better showing... Yet that occurred when Anakin was supposedly a poorer duelist? Lol again!
Originally posted by ArhaelSorry, but given that Kenobi(a "level 8"😉 was STALEMATING Anakin(a "level 9"😉 even though the difference between a level 8 and 9 is supposedly "enormous" is a little hard for me to believe-- in fact, I can't believe it. If Anakin were an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi after turning to the dark side, then Kenobi's Soresu would have been utterly inconsequential-- Anakin would have easily beaten him, not just stalemate him throughout the entire battle. So yeah, you can preach the "levels" stuff to people who overlook those facts. 👆
Canonically Anakin's combat prowess during fight with Kenobi was on parr with Yoda and Windu, despite popular believe that his performance was hampered.
Anyway, Lucas himself stated that when he was on Mustafar, Anakin was a mindphucked train-wreck who was full of guilt, remorse and conflict. Never, in the history of SW, have those emotions ever helped a Jedi or Sith in battle. Never. Once. Why on earth you guys think Anakin wasn't being hindered by those emotions, when any other force-user who has experienced those emotions has been hindered/weakened by them, is truly baffling to me. Personally, I think you guys are arguing just to argue. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007Personally, I think Anakin's rather effortless slaying of Dooku
Who said it was effortless? It was after Dooku had actually almost defeated Skywalker.
Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, but given that Kenobi(a "level 8"😉 was STALEMATING Anakin(a "level 9"😉
I'd say he was "Surviving" not "Stalemating." It's Obi-Wan's mastery of a defensive style which prolonged the fight.
And the levels refer to the differences in combat prowess on a level terrain.
Originally posted by Galan007👆
Getting his arms and legs chopped off, before nearly burning to death represents the best performance of Anakin's life, you say? Lol, your definition of "best" must be a LOT different than mine.Personally, I think Anakin's rather effortless slaying of Dooku(a guy who was on par with "level-9-Yoda" in sabers) represents a VASTLY better showing... Yet that occurred when Anakin was supposedly a poorer duelist? Lol again!
Sorry, but given that Kenobi(a "level 8"😉 was STALEMATING Anakin(a "level 9"😉 even though the difference between a level 8 and 9 is supposedly "enormous" is a little hard for me to believe-- in fact, I can't believe it. If Anakin were an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi after turning to the dark side, then Kenobi's Soresu would have been utterly inconsequential-- Anakin would have easily beaten him, not just stalemate him throughout the entire battle. So yeah, you can preach the "levels" stuff to people who overlook those facts. 👆
Anyway, Lucas himself stated that when he was on Mustafar, Anakin was a mindphucked train-wreck who was full of guilt, remorse and conflict. Never, in the history of SW, have those emotions ever helped a Jedi or Sith in battle. Never. Once. Why on earth you guys think Anakin wasn't being hindered by those emotions, when any other force-user who has experienced those emotions has been hindered/weakened by them, is truly baffling to me. Personally, I think you guys are arguing just to argue. /shrug
Originally posted by DARTH POWER...And then Anakin came back and wtfpwned Dooku in an effortless fashion... A FAR better feat than stalemating Kenobi for several minutes before being chopped up and nearly burned to death. 🙂
Who said it was effortless? It was after Dooku had actually almost defeated Skywalker.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERHe was surviving BY stalemating. Heck, at one point(when they were battling in the control room) level-8-Kenobi actually managed to disarm level-9-Anakin and take his saber... Even though the difference between their saber-skills was allegedly "enormous." Lol, has anyone else ever thought about some of the stuff I've mentioned pertaining to the "levels" nonsense, or did you guys just buy off on it without thinking twice?
I'd say he was "Surviving" not "Stalemating." It's Obi-Wan's mastery of a defensive style which prolonged the fight.
---
More on point:
Anyway, Lucas himself stated that when he was on Mustafar, Anakin was a mindphucked train-wreck who was full of guilt, remorse and conflict. Never, in the history of SW, have those emotions ever helped a Jedi or Sith in battle. Never. Once. Why on earth you guys think Anakin wasn't being hindered by those emotions, when any other force-user who has experienced those emotions has been hindered/weakened by them, is truly baffling to me. Personally, I think you guys are arguing just to argue. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
...And then Anakin came back and wtfpwned Dooku in an effortless fashion...
I tend to look at the whole fight. I'm not just going to ignore the fact that Dooku had Skywalker lying completely helpless on the floor for like 10 seconds, while he was simultaneously disposing of Obi-Wan.
I also don't think we should judge fights by how long they last. A defensive fighter will hold off his opponent for a longer period.
But interestingly enough Makashi has been shown to be a good defensive form too when used in that way. Refer to Dooku fending off Anakin's power blows in "Crisis on Naboo."
Originally posted by Galan007
He was surviving BY stalemating. Heck, at one point(when they were battling in the control room) level-8-Kenobi actually disarmed level-9-Anakin... Even though the difference between their saber-skills was allegedly "enormous."Lol, has anyone else ever thought about some of the stuff I've mentioned pertaining to the "levels" nonsense, or did you guys just buy off on it without thinking twice?
Well the levels "nonsense" does seem to have originated from Lucas.
And we didn't see Kenobi disarm Skywalker. We just see Skywalker choking Kenobi with one hand and Kenobi's sword arm with his other hand. It's possible he let go of his Saber because he saw the opportunity to gain that advantage.
It was actually Anakin who disarmed Kenobi after that.
Btw I'm not closed to the idea that his performance was hindered against Obi-Wan. I'm just pointing a few things out.
The Official Site does claim he felt his powers grow when he turned to the Dark Side. And then from the ROTS novel there's Dooku dread at what would happen to him if Skywalker embraced his whole rage.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERCool, then look at the whole fight with Kenobi. They stalemated. The entire time. 🙂
I tend to look at the whole fight.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERIn the director's commentary portion of the RotS DVD, Lucas says that Kenobi disarmed Anakin-- that's how he ended up with his saber.
And we didn't see Kenobi disarm Skywalker. We just see Skywalker choking Kenobi with one hand and Kenobi's sword arm with his other hand. It's possible he let go of his Saber because he saw the opportunity to gain that advantage.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER👆
Btw I'm not closed to the idea that his performance was hindered against Obi-Wan. I'm just pointing a few things out.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERI could see him thinking his powers grew initially... But by the time he was crying on Mustafar, Anakin was an emotional mess. The emotions he was experiencing(guilt, conflict, remorse, etc.) DO NOT, and NEVER HAVE strengthened a force-user-- they have ONLY weakened them.
The Official Site does claim he felt his powers grow when he turned to the Dark Side.
Originally posted by Galan007In the director's commentary portion of the RotS DVD, Lucas says that Kenobi disarmed Anakin-- that's how he ended up with his saber.
Oh ok. I didn't know that.
Anyway Gillard who told us about the levels said he called Skywalker vs Kenobi "toe to toe". Because they couldn't get past each other's defenses as they knew each others moves inside out (I know makes perfect sense) in the Making of ROTS.
So that's his explanation anyway.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERThat's the thing, though. Violent forms, like Anakin's Djem So, are ideal for breaching the defenses of Soresu: "The emphasis on Djem So remains strength, with violent blows that can penetrate any defense." - A Manual for Students of the Force
Oh ok. I didn't know that.Anyway Gillard who told us about the levels said he called Skywalker vs Kenobi "toe to toe". Because they couldn't get past each other's defenses as they knew each others moves inside out (I know makes perfect sense) in the Making of ROTS.
So that's his explanation anyway.
So like I mentioned before: if Anakin's saber-skills truly were "enormously" better than Kenobi's on Mustafar, then Soresu would have been inconsequential-- Anakin would have destroyed him, not just stalemate him for the entire battle. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
That's the thing, though. Violent forms, like Anakin's Djem So, are ideal for breaching the defenses of Soresu: "The emphasis on Djem So remains strength, with violent blows that can penetrate any defense." - A Manual for Students of the ForceSo like I mentioned before: if Anakin's saber-skills truly were "enormously" better than Kenobi's on Mustafar, then Soresu would have been inconsequential-- Anakin would have destroyed him, not just stalemate him for the entire battle. /shrug
Well according to the ROTS script Skywalker was forcing Kenobi backwards. He wasn't giving ground voluntarily. So Skywalker was the more powerful duelist.
I can't imagine Kenobi doing as well if they fought in tighter environments, like on Dooku's ship, or Palpatine's office.
But yes the difference clearly wasn't "Enormous."
Originally posted by DARTH POWERBefore or after Kenobi finally decided that he had to stop holding back and take Anakin out?
Well according to the ROTS script Skywalker was forcing Kenobi backwards. He wasn't giving ground voluntarily. So Skywalker was the more powerful duelist.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERExactly.
But yes the difference clearly wasn't "Enormous."
Yet if those statements/quotes are to be believed, then Anakin supposedly was an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi-- but like you mentioned/agreed with: he obviously was not, as they stalemated throughout the entire battle. Heck, even their force-powers(force-pushes) were equal.
Thus an "enormous" difference(or any notable difference, for that matter) clearly did not exist between them on Mustafar.