Kenobi (ROTS) and Kit Fisto (ROTS) vs. Count Dooku (ROTS)

Originally posted by mnat801
This could go either way tbh.

Dooku's case:

He's beaten AOTC Kenobi in sabers (although Kenobi may have been a bit worn down in the Geonosis arena);

Able to hold his own against tanks like Yoda.

Kenobi's Case:

Defeated Sith Anakin who, most would assume can defeat Dooku;

Experience of fighting in the clone wars, both Anakin and Kenobi greatly improved since AOTC;

In ROTS, Dooku was only able to knock out Kenobi through the force, and this is a saber thread;

He has Kit Fisto with him.

My personal view is that Kenobi and Fisto can win this fight, but Dooku has always done a good job of intimidating Kenobi.

So i'd say team takes this 8/10 times.

No one in there right mind believes that the mindraped Anakin that fought Kenobi on Mustafar could defeat Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No one in there right mind believes that the mindraped Anakin that fought Kenobi on Mustafar could defeat Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No one in there right mind believes that the mindraped Anakin that fought Kenobi on Mustafar could defeat Dooku.

By the time Anakin fought Kenobi on Mustafar, he was merely a burned-out and overtly conflicted shell of the man he was earlier in the film.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Jedi don't battle to the death numb nuts. Generally they fight to disarm.
Example is Agen Kolar vs. Quinlan Vos.
"Yield that would have been your arm"
Same concept in a sparring match. How the hell do you think Jedi Masters get so good?
The concept that 'Oh it wasn't a fight to the death so it doesn't count' is absurd. The only saber duels that are to the death didn't occur until the Clone Wars. And those were the first 'to the death' saber duels in hundreds of years. And yet Yoda and Mace were the greatest blademasters in the order's 20,000+ year history.

Also let's not forget that Vaapad only requires enjoyment in the battle, and no where is it stated that it cannot be applied in a sparring match.

In fact, when Quinlan Vos applies a Vaapad manuver MID-SPAR with Windu, he comments on it. So don't give me that. 'Mace was holding back' 'it was a sparring match' bullshit. It's not gonna fly here.

Give me a quote that says Mace was holding back. You are also ignoring the ****ing narrative that states that they are equal.

No that's wrong. ROTS Anakin, is level 9. This is made clear in TCW where Anakin repeatedly proves he is Dooku's peer with a blade.
[QUTOTE]
Point is, there is NO WAY you can conclude Dooku is a level 9.. without concluding Kenobi is a level 9. There is clear evidence to support Kenobi being such.. not Dooku. A random hyperbolic statement isn't close to the same level of evidence as ACTUALLY WINNING A LIFE AND DEATH BATTLE AGAINST A LEVEL 9 FOE

Yes you can you nitwit. You keep referencing the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight. A fight where.
1. Anakin was fighting his ****ing father figure.
2. Anakin had just choked his wife, and the whole reason he turend the the damned Dark Side in the first place, half to death,
3. He was just crying because of the massacres he had committed.
4. HE WAS CONFLICTED.

Obi-Wan on the other hand was resolved to put down Anakin the moment he saw what a monster he had become. That entire fight was a big low end showing. Every piece of canon made since ROTS has stated and made it blatantly obvious that Anakin is Obi-Wan's superior.
I am tired of people on this board disregarding that.

Just like people disregarding that Dooku has been stated to be Mace's superior in raw swordsmanship, multiple times.

Oh my God. If someone has the speed to parry a strike count of 24 hits per second. Then they are able to replicate speed of that level. Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, are all those people. [/QUOTE]

Okay so you admit you have no fing battle they fought in and you just made that up. Good, then stop going on and on about something that NEVER occurred. They never battled as you put it dumbass.

You do understand that part of Vaapad is attacking in a very aggressive and deadly manner. You get that don't you. So in sparring you NEVER go full force you idiot. So right then and there takes away death strikes that would occur in a real fight and end it. Same with shatterpoint... if you can't find a shatterpoint to end a fight cause it's sparring you are eliminating that possibility. Don't tell me u u are dumb enough to think sparring and life and death situations are the same? Have you ever played a sport in your life? I'm starting not to think so.

Why are you not ALSO addressing the fact that during said sparring sessions... Mace wasn't as old and experienced in the force as dooku. What is so hard to understand about.. Mace GROWING in power from the time of the alleged sparring sessions THAT WE NEVER SAW.. THAT WE ONLY HAVE ONE OFF HYPERBOLIC lines about? You do understand Mace grew in power by then right? There is also no proof mace had mastered Vaapad by that time or shatterpoint when the sparring sessions took place. All those factors and the nature of sparring makes those lines irrelevant.

WHO has Dooku BEATEN BY FEATS that puts him on the level of Mace and Yoda.. Mace and Yoda have the FEATS to warrant such a lofty level. Dooku does not. SO WHICH FEATS OF HIS put him on that level?

You're a complete moron. There are CANON levels for Saber skills. Dooku ISN'T stated to be a level 9.. PERIOD. Doing okay against yoda yet coming across as inferior isn't really THAT good. Sparring sessions aren't that good. So what we have is HIM LOSING to somebody that at that time was a level 9.. yet you wanna make him a level 9. Did you graduate junior high? Even a kid would know that makes zero sense. As I stated KENOBI BEAT somebody that was a level 9... more than we can say about dooku eh?

Anakin was stated to be a 9 once he turned to the DS... so as much as you wanna make excuses and not believe the rating isn't my issue. He was that. Stop going on and on about how uspet he was this and that. He JUST KILLED INNOCENT KIDS... That means he was prepared and willing to let himself go to the DS. Some regret.. sure... but not enough to throw out the fight. Ppint is, if he could do that... then he certainly wouldn't have an issue killing kenobi.. somebody that he thought turned his love against him Nice try though... but once again basic logic alludes you. You're also forgetting that Kenobi was also emotional.. he would be emotional about killing his son.. that is more conflict than what Anakin would be feeling. Period. Anakin had already made his bed... Kenobi had to decide to make his right then and there. Much more recent conflict than Anakin.. who had already done worse things before kenobi showed up

Point is, Kenobi is a level 9 if dooku is.. Kenobi beat somebody that BECAME a level 9.. Dooku lost to somebody not a level 9 yet. Is that basic conclusion to much for you ?

Originally posted by Galan007
This.

By the time Anakin fought Kenobi on Mustafar, he was merely a burned-out and overtly conflicted shell of the man he was earlier in the film.

Untrue as canon sources including the novel have im GAINING in power once he turns to the ds.. he can feel his power grow. That is hardly a shell of his former self. People need to remember that Anakin had already done something far worse by the time Kenobi showed up. He had already made his bed. Killing Kenobi at that point wasn't a big deal to Anakin.. he had already done worse. Kenobi on the other hand.. had to kill his son.. Just as much.. if not more conflict there.. yet he got the job done.

Anakin thought he had just killed his wife and the baby inside her. On top of that, he was fighting his former master and father-figure in a battle to the death. Guilt, remorse, sadness, confliction(of which Anakin blatantly displayed)-- these emotions weaken you, they do not strengthen you. No canon source says otherwise. Simple.

That said, Obi-Wan did not beat a guy who was superior to Dooku-- he beat a burned-out shell of that guy. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anakin thought he had just killed his wife and the baby inside her. On top of that, he was fighting his former master and father-figure in a battle to the death. Guilt, remorse, sadness, confliction(of which Anakin blatantly displayed)-- these emotions weaken you, they do not strengthen you. No canon source says otherwise. Simple.

That said, Obi-Wan did not beat a guy who was superior to Dooku-- he beat a burned-out shell of that guy. Nothing more.

Anakin expressed NO such emotion while fighting kenobi... What are people not getting about.. when you turn to the DS you let go some of your old jedi thoughts of regret.. guilt.. sadness. This isn't Jedi Anakin doing those deeds... it's SITH ANAKIN... It's a faulty comparison trying to state what would upset him as a jedi as to what would as a sith. He had killed INNOCENT kids... yet you think he's going o be upset about killing obi wan? Come on, where is the logic in that. He had accepted his role and what he had become. If anythying.. Kenobi was more conflicted than Anakin... He hadn't turned to the DS.. nor had he already commited terrible acts... Yet he was no faced with killing his son.. Yeah i'd say he had just as much emotion as a already turned Anakin who accepted his new role and relished its new found power.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That isn't true...Anakin SPECIFICALLY says he FEELS his power grow upon turning to the DS. That is exactly what is said in a canon source friend. Filoni also agrees with that as he rated Anakin a 9 BECAUSE he switched to the DS.

Anakin expressed NO such emotion while fighting kenobi... What are people not getting about.. when you turn to the DS you let go some of your old jedi thoughts of regret.. guilt.. sadness. This isn't Jedi Anakin doing those deeds... it's SITH ANAKIN... It's a faulty comparison trying to state what would upset him as a jedi as to what would as a sith. He had killed INNOCENT kids... yet you think he's going o be upset about killing obi wan? Come on, where is the logic in that. He had accepted his role and what he had become. If anythying.. Kenobi was more conflicted than Anakin... He hadn't turned to the DS.. nor had he already commited terrible acts... Yet he was no faced with killing his son.. Yeah i'd say he had just as much emotion as a already turned Anakin who accepted his new role and relished its new found power.

Filoni ranked Anakin? When? Does the saber rankings even count as canon?

Anyway, I suppose that there is an argument to be made that Anakin was focused and bloodlusted on killing Kenobi. Kenobi would also be hindered by his initial unwillingness to kill Anakin, based on the novelization. I wouldn't say Anakin was hindered in the duel since he was continuously pushing Kenobi back. However, hubris led to his downfall when he jumped. He could have won had he not made such a tactically ridiculous move.

Oh this is a sabers-only thread? Team 1 may take it then.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anakin thought he had just killed his wife and the baby inside her.

Originally posted by mnat801
No he only found out when Sidious told him. Before that he thought she was alive.

Yeah, Anakin turned to the dark side because he felt it would give him power to save her. At that point, he was, per novelisation, caring only about himself.

Originally posted by Vensai
Filoni ranked Anakin? When? Does the saber rankings even count as canon?

Nick Glillard rated them. Not Dave Filoni. He gave them ratings when choreographing the ROTS duels based on how they would compare to each other on neutral ground. He states the rating originally came from Lucas which would make them canon.

Even if they didn't originate from Lucas I'd say the words of the stunt coordinator who choreographed the fights should be taken as seriously as we take Dave Filoni's words when discussing the events of TCW series.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That isn't true...Anakin SPECIFICALLY says he FEELS his power grow upon turning to the DS. That is exactly what is said in a canon source friend. Filoni also agrees with that as he rated Anakin a 9 BECAUSE he switched to the DS.

Anakin expressed NO such emotion while fighting kenobi... What are people not getting about.. when you turn to the DS you let go some of your old jedi thoughts of regret.. guilt.. sadness. This isn't Jedi Anakin doing those deeds... it's SITH ANAKIN... It's a faulty comparison trying to state what would upset him as a jedi as to what would as a sith. He had killed INNOCENT kids... yet you think he's going o be upset about killing obi wan? Come on, where is the logic in that. He had accepted his role and what he had become. If anythying.. Kenobi was more conflicted than Anakin... He hadn't turned to the DS.. nor had he already commited terrible acts... Yet he was no faced with killing his son.. Yeah i'd say he had just as much emotion as a already turned Anakin who accepted his new role and relished its new found power.

*"Anakin knows murdering a bunch of [Younglings] was wrong, but he won't admit it to Padme. He tries rationalizing his decisions in spite of knowing they are wrong."

*"The tear in this scene[when Anakin is alone on Mustafar after murdering the Federation members] shows that Anakin knows what he's doing is wrong, but he has now committed himself to a path he may not agree with."

*"If Anakin had to turn to the dark side all over again, he probably wouldn't have."

*"There is still good in him."

Anakin was never 100% committed to the dark side; he was always conflicted about his decisions-- heck, Lucas outright stated that if Anakin were given the option again, he wouldn't turn to the dark side. So again: feelings like confliction, remorse, and guilt(of which GL himself stated Anakin was experiencing) do not strengthen you. They weaken you. Simple.

Not .. NOT ONE of those things you posted had ANYTHING to do with how he fought against Kenobi.. NONE of Lucas' commentary nor ANY narration in the novel imply or even hint at him holding back or not fighting to the best of his ability because of some guilt. There is NO narration that supports such a stance. Knowing something is wrong... having some doubts about your decision /= holding back or not giving is all to kill kenobi. Nor does feeling guilty effect his fighting ability. So no, the narration doesn't support your stance that it affected him in his fight. If you're arguing that he had some guilt or some doubt after turning.. nobody is arguing said point. However, that wasn't your point, and your point was that it held him back or he didn't fight properly against Kenobi... and there is ZERO evidence to support such a stance.

The evidence is actually the opposite... He had NEVER felt such power before once he embraced the DS... he felt it sweeling in him. It also mentions how powerful he was getting when he let his anger take over (fight with kenobi). All these things point to him being MORE powerful than before not weaker. As i stated.. he had already accepted what he had done and knew there was no going back.. He had already killed younglings... There was no going back and he knew that.

Anakin was already conflicted when he fought Kenobi. He was conflicted as a Sith in general. He was also guilty and remorseful about the decisions he'd made-- to the point that he wished he weren't a Sith at all. Comments from Lucas>>your opinion.

Those type of feelings weaken; they do not strengthen. Argue it all you want, but it's really clear as day.

Lucas opinion is also greater than your friend. Can you show me ANY narration supporting it hinder him in his fight with kenobi? can you show any narration or commentary that he held back in his figth with kenobi? If not, then it's a non point. Again you keep arguing that he had some guilt.. some remore.. Okay... but where is it shown that is HINDERED HIM IN BATTLE WITH KENOBI.. That is what YOU have to prove and there IS NO PROOF to support such a stance.

In fact, Lucas himself as you say.. made it clear ANAKIN NEVER FELT STRONGER once he turned to the DS. He felt strength like he never had before. His anger in his figth with kenobi made him EVEN STRONGER. All this narration points to him being more powerful not weaker. I will await the narration that it hindered him or made him weaker.. if not, it's an open and shut case.

Lol, what kind of logic is that? Again:

Originally posted by Galan007
*"Anakin knows murdering a bunch of [Younglings] was wrong, but he won't admit it to Padme. He tries rationalizing his decisions in spite of knowing they are wrong."

*"The tear in this scene[when Anakin is alone on Mustafar after murdering the Federation members] shows that Anakin knows what he's doing is wrong, but he has now committed himself to a path he may not agree with."

*"If Anakin had to turn to the dark side all over again, he probably wouldn't have."

*"There is still good in him."

Anakin felt conflicted. He felt remorseful. He felt guilty. Don't be obtuse and act like those emotions made him more powerful-- they obviously would have hindered him more than anything. He didn't even want to be a Sith for crying out loud. If you feel guilty about what you're doing, for example, you're going to be more prone to making mistakes. If you feel remorseful about what you're doing, for example, then you might subconsciously hold back a bit. Etc.(these are basic psychological concepts, btw.)

Once more: per Lucas Anakin was a mindphucked mess who was ashamed of the choices he'd made. A sound and confident mind(when he fought Dooku)>>a conflicted, guilty and remorseful mind(when he fought Kenobi). Simple.

So you're saying the narration that has Anakin saying he's NEVER felt more powerful ever.. the narration stating that he felt himself grow in power once he turned.. the narration that said his anger (fighting kenobi) made him stronger.. so you're claiming those are non canon? Cause if not, those are in direct conflict with what you're saying.. Directly.

You're making the mistake of trying to equate somebody feeling 75% guilty or remorseful to feeling 10% of those things.. You will not have the same reaction or state of mind with either of those percentages correct? So then, please tell me where Anakin fit into that. Cause in order for your view to be plausible.. he'd have to be like 75% or higher than way. Feeling a little bit of this or that isn't going to effect him.

Further, even if you believe he is VERY guilty and remorseful.. you still need to show it effecting him in battle. There is ZERO narration.. and I litteally mean this ZERO narration that supports him being gulity and remorseful and hindering him in a fight. So where is that narration ?

You're ignoring logical facts in favor of your own opinion. Faulty, faulty.

Anyway, I've posted more than enough evidence to support my stance. You've posted none. We'll leave it at that.

and you're ignoring the CANON narration stating he became more powerful.. faulty faulty faulty. That narration isn't my opinion.

Posting narration needs to PROVE what you're arguing for. You're arguing that said narration of him being remorseful or guility effected his performance.. Yet you have SHOWN NO narration even HINTING at that, let alone stating that. That is what you need to post. Nobody is arguing anakin felt some guilt or might have been remorseful. That ISN'T the argument. The argument is.. HOW much did that effect him during his fight... I say very little if any.. you say A LOT. Where is your proof???