Kenobi (ROTS) and Kit Fisto (ROTS) vs. Count Dooku (ROTS)

Not true... Let's look more careful shall we....

In the clone wars.. Their performance against Dooku has been pretty much the same.. Maybe Anakin doing slightly better overall. However, Anakin has also DONE THE WORST between the two getting his arm cut off the second time he cmae back.. and the first time getting One shot by lighting. Kenobi did much better and that was the worst performance by either.

Further, when Anakin actually did win... It was AFTER he had been fighting BOTH Anakin and Kenobi and it was outright stated they were weakening win.. and he had to use up force reserves. Also, the main reason Anakin does better is because he is better at tanking force attacks than Kenobi. EACH time Dooku has gained the edge on Kenobi it was via the force not out sabering him since becoming a Soresu master. However, when Anakin and Kenobi meet.. their offensive force powers are on par.. thus Anakin doesn't have that same advantage over Kenobi as Dooku does...

It's pointless discussing Anakin vs Kenobi because of the circumstances. This is perhaps the only fight in which Kenobi would do better than Anakin in, except maybe against Grievous. But against any other opponent you'd rather want Anakin than Kenobi on your side.

I totally disagree with that statement. Like pretty much totallly. Kenobi is the better overall fighter. So no, just no.

How is he the better overall fighter when he can't take force attacks at all?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Not true... Let's look more careful shall we....

Uh Oh. When someone's in complete denial of Skywalker's very blatant superior showings over Kenobi's against Dooku then we have to be scared of the grasping that's to come.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In the clone wars.. Their performance against Dooku has been pretty much the same.. Maybe Anakin doing slightly better overall. However, Anakin has also DONE THE WORST between the two getting his arm cut off the second time he cmae back.. and the first time getting One shot by lighting. Kenobi did much better and that was the worst performance by either.

Firstly that was AOTC not Clone Wars.

Lets ignore the fact that the only reason Kenobi didn't get cut to pieces was because Skywalker saved him. Lets also ignore the fact that the novel makes it clear that Skywalker's Saber performance gave Dooku more trouble than Kenobi's.

Aside from those you do realize your now comparing Kenobi to PADAWAN Anakin right? Has your argument had to stoop that low KT? Really?

Bad KT. Very Bad.

Fact is since Skywalker was Knighted Dooku has never been able to convincingly defeat Skywalker. Yet still deals with Jedi MASTER Kenobi as though he were a Padawan. 😛

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Further, when Anakin actually did win... It was AFTER he had been fighting BOTH Anakin and Kenobi and it was outright stated they were weakening win.. and he had to use up force reserves.

And yet Kenobi STILL couldn't stand up to him despite Dooku being tired. Yet Skywalker defeated him. Hence Skywalker's performance was far better.

And that was Kenobi in his Prime. Skywalker has one on one stlemated Dooku consistently. Kenobi can not hope to do that.

Hence Skywalker's performance has always been far better. (Oh apart from when he was a Padawan).😛

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also, the main reason Anakin does better is because he is better at tanking force attacks than Kenobi. EACH time Dooku has gained the edge on Kenobi it was via the force not out sabering him since becoming a Soresu master. However, when Anakin and Kenobi meet.. their offensive force powers are on par.. thus Anakin doesn't have that same advantage over Kenobi as Dooku does...

Firstly I'm not convinced their offensive TK powers are on par just because of that force push contest that sent them both back.

Skywalker has the superior TK feats. Just recently he Force Choked Ventress. I've never seen any evidence to suggest Kenobi is Ventress's superior or even equal in Force TK. And like you mentioned Skywalker can tank Force attacks much better. So they're not equals in that regard.

Secondly Kenobi has had his chance to best Dooku in Sabers but has never done so.

Whilst in Skywalker and Dooku's last CW fight in "Crisis on Naboo" it was only Dooku's force powers that made the fight a stalemate. Skywalker was besting him in Sabers. (Not by much, but he did best him).

There's no opponent that I'm aware of who Kenobi can beat but Skywalker can't. Whilst Skywalker can beat Dooku. But Kenobi can't. And his performances against other foes like Ventress and Durge while fighting alongside Kenobi, have always been superior to Kenobi's.

End of.

^Completely agreed.

Btw, would superior tanking of force attacks mean superior force powers? So basically that could be another proof for Anakin>Kenobi in the force.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No no and no Big DP... That is EXACTLY what is very likely to happen. No matter the situation... Kenobi can and would also have the mental edge on Anakin.. Which by the way is no small feat... some might say the mind is the most powerful weapon. He's calmer under fire... not arrogant.. not brash.. and tactically smarter than Anakin. THese are all huge factors in a one v one fight. Kenobi would also be able to take advantage of Anakin mentally no matter where they fought.

I don't know why you keep saying Anakin was the more powerful duelist.. He wasn't.. got dismembered and left NO lasting scars on Kenobi besides mental ones. He out thought him and baited him into making that dumb move. Kenobi wass shown to be the better duelist... If by more powerful you simply mean Anakin is stronger.. Okay sure... but that is about it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lets ignore the fact that the only reason Kenobi didn't get cut to pieces was because Skywalker saved him. Lets also ignore the fact that the novel makes it clear that Skywalker's Saber performance gave Dooku more trouble than Kenobi's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet Kenobi STILL couldn't stand up to him despite Dooku being tired. Yet Skywalker defeated him. Hence Skywalker's performance was far better.

And that was Kenobi in his Prime. Skywalker has one on one stlemated Dooku consistently. Kenobi can not hope to do that.

Hence Skywalker's performance has always been far better. (Oh apart from when he was a Padawan).😛

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Firstly I'm not convinced their offensive TK powers are on par just because of that force push contest that sent them both back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Skywalker has the superior TK feats. Just recently he Force Choked Ventress. I've never seen any evidence to suggest Kenobi is Ventress's superior or even equal in Force TK. And like you mentioned Skywalker can tank Force attacks much better. So they're not equals in that regard.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Secondly Kenobi has had his chance to best Dooku in Sabers but has never done so.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whilst in Skywalker and Dooku's last CW fight in "Crisis on Naboo" it was only Dooku's force powers that made the fight a stalemate. Skywalker was besting him in Sabers. (Not by much, but he did best him).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There's no opponent that I'm aware of who Kenobi can beat but Skywalker can't. Whilst Skywalker can beat Dooku. But Kenobi can't. And his performances against other foes like Ventress and Durge while fighting alongside Kenobi, have always been superior to Kenobi's.

End of.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
^Completely agreed.

Btw, would superior tanking of force attacks mean superior force powers? So basically that could be another proof for Anakin>Kenobi in the force.

Well if we add that to his superior TK feats, then yes. I think all the evidence suggests Skywalker was more powerful than Kenobi in respect to Force TK.

But clearly not to an extent where it's a guaranteed win like Dooku vs Kenobi. I'd personally put Skywalker's Force TK approximately on par with CW Maul's.

Originally posted by mnat801
Its like when Obi Wan overwhelmed Opress and Maul, and Maul hat to resort to force powers, not to defeat him, but so he could run away.

Lol Even if it's purpose was to run away (probably to save Opress if it was) fact is it left Kenobi knocked senseless.

If it didn't cause an avalanche in between them(which just shows how powerful it was) Kenobi would be finished.

Originally posted by mnat801
Not denying the fact that Anakin is better than Dooku. But Kenobi has never had a chance against him in the Clone Wars, just like Anakin never gets a chance at Grevious.

Oh come on!

He had his chance at the height of his power in ROTS. And he was completely humiliated. Stop trying to pretend Kenobi is in any kind of league to contend with Count Dooku. It's pretty crystal clear that he's not.

It's also pretty crystal clear that Skywalker would destroy Grievous.

Let's be just a little bit Objective here.

Facts are:

1.Skywalker consistently performs better than Kenobi against the same opponents. Skywalker for instance has never lost a fight to Ventress.

2.Skywalker can defeat Count Dooku. Obi-Wan has no chance in hell to do that.

3. There's no one Kenobi can defeat that Skywalker can not.

Ah actually, many boxers became world champions, because they outsmarted there opponents using a defensive style and giving ground. e.g Lennox Lewis vs David Tua.

No, I just think that it totally condradicts what was shown on screen. The claim that there is a great difference between level 8 and 9 is unreliable because its very clear that Kenobi and Skywalker where an even match for each other. Why do you think many people have split opinions on the matter? If Kenobi was owned the way Dooku was owned then its case closed. Hoever the fact that Anakin never injured him, as well as Obi Wan being the last man standing, regardless of Anakin's conflicted emotions, mean that it definitely isn't clear that Anakin is the superior duelist.

I need to point out at a few specifics, when evaluating fight with Dooku.
Dooku's style is mainly offensive, it's designed to swiftly outduel opponent.

But notice that both in CW and RotS Dooku was forced to full defense. That demonstrates his inferiority to Anakin because, if he was more skilled, he would be the one forcing Anakin on the defensive.

Defense is not what Dooku's style is about and that is the reason why he got tired and went down so much faster than Kenobi.

I used to consider Kenobi to be more skilled than Dooku, now I am no longer sure of that, although I still consider him much more versatile fighter, which gives him an edge. But main thing is that Kenobi's style advantage allowed him to survive much longer than Dooku and use that time to get higher ground.

Anakin's combat prowess for final fight is evaluated as 9, while Kenobi - 8. And that's why it was Kenobi trying to survive whole fight.

Originally posted by Arhael
I changed nothing. Level 8 and 9 difference is enormous. It's canon, you can't dismiss it no matter what. Angry Anakin can make short work out of likes of Dooku, something even Yoda can't.. Dooku like Kenobi was forced to passively defend and try to survive. Kenobi could survive for much longer because his style is centered on defense. If one of the characters can't do anythig but survive, it means that he is at significant disadvantage.

Now you're trying to act like Anakin was a "level 9" when he battled Dooku, despite the quotes you posted saying that he only became a "level 9" after turning to the dark side:

Originally posted by Arhael
Proof that Anakin became level 9 by turning to darkside:
"To design and choreograph the sequence as well as the myriad other action-packed scenes in Revenge of the Sith Gillard says he first discussed with writer-director George Lucas the fighting prowess of each of the characters, which were ranked against other Jedi on a scale of 1 to 10.

Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented but he hasn't learned the mental side of it". - Dueling Jedi article

So per your quotes, Anakin was a "level 8" when he fought Dooku, just like Kenobi--- yet Kenobi was tooled by Dooku, while Anakin slew him with ease. Fast-forward to their duel on Mustafar, and Kenobi/Anakin stalemated the entire time(be them in close-quarters or open-quarters)... Yet by this point Anakin had supposedly become a "level 9", making him an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi? Yeah, it's an absolutely ridiculous claim--- one that no one is buying.

All you really seem to be doing is making stuff up, because you know your original 'logic' has failed you. Miserably. Bottom line: pick a stance and stick with it-- don't change your tune multiple times throughout a thread, and act like the new stance you shifted to is what you've been saying the entire time. It's ridiculous and overtly childish. You are/were wrong. I know it, you know it. Simple. 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
You did switch your stance. It's laughably obvious.

Now you're trying to act like Anakin was a "level 9" when he battled Dooku, despite the quotes you posted saying that he only became a "level 9" after turning to the dark side:

So per your quotes, Anakin was a "level 8" when he fought Dooku, just like Kenobi--- yet Kenobi was tooled by Dooku, while Anakin slew him with ease.

According to the script Anakin got stronger through that fight as he got madder.

When he defeats Dooku he's said to fight with "a new ferocity."

So he defeated Dooku by embracing his rage. The only difference with Sith Anakin is he's embraced his rage from the beginning of the fight.

Originally posted by Galan007
So per your quotes, Anakin was a "level 8" when he fought Dooku, just like Kenobi--- yet Kenobi was tooled by Dooku, while Anakin slew him with ease.

Let's not forget that he almost tooled Skywalker at the same time he tooled Kenobi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
According to the script Anakin got stronger through that fight as he got madder.

When he defeats Dooku he's said to fight with "a new ferocity."

So he defeated Dooku by embracing his rage. The only difference with Sith Anakin is he's embraced his rage from the beginning of the fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Let's not forget that he almost tooled Skywalker at the same time he tooled Kenobi.

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing. You've already admitted that the difference between Kenobi and Anakin was clearly NOT "enormous" as the quotes state, so leave it at that.

Originally posted by Galan007
The quotes Arhael has based his argument on, outright state that Anakin started out as a "level 8", and did not become a "level 9" until he turned to the dark side. Anakin momentarily embracing anger in his battle with Dooku=/=turning to the dark side--- heck, Mace embraces his rage/anger in battle all the time.

Semantics. The point is Anakin's a lot stronger when he uses his full rage. Isn't that what he realized in his pristine clarity. That "Oh this is how I can use my rage." And wasn't that the point of the fight for the Sith to get Skywalker to use the Dark Side?

Edit- And I think the exact quote was "that's the difference between light and dark."

Originally posted by Galan007
What "almost" happened is entirely inconsequential..

Well no it's not. Skywalker was on the floor completely helpless just watching Kenobi get defeated over a 10 second period.

How can that be inconsequential?

Originally posted by Galan007
Stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

I'm not. I'm just pointing out what's confirmed in the script and the novel which is that Skywalker got more powerful as that fight went on. Whilst Dooku got weaker.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Semantics. The point is Anakin's a lot stronger when he uses his full rage. Isn't that what he realized in his pristine clarity. That "Oh this is how I can use my rage." And wasn't that the point of the fight for the Sith to get Skywalker to use the Dark Side?

Once more: Anakin momentarily utilizing anger vs. Dooku=/=turning to the dark side. Case in point: during AotC, Anakin murdered an entire camp-full of Sand People, and was likely experiencing MUCH more anger/hate/rage than he felt against Dooku--- yet he still didn't turn to the dark side. Do you understand what I mean?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Edit- And I think the exact quote was "that's the difference between light and dark."

It is solely in reference to Anakin and Kenobi's final battle on Mustafar. Heck, here's the opening dialogue:
"In 100 years of cinematic history, there have been countless epic battles between heroes and villains. But none has been as hotly anticipated or will be as closely dissected by moviegoers as the final showdown between Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi that forms the climax of Star Wars: Episode III Revenge of the Sith."

So yeah, THAT'S when Anakin was supposedly a "level 9". It certainly doesn't state he became a level 9 vs. Dooku. To the contrary, it states that Anakin started at a level 8--- and his battle with Dooku did, in fact, occur at the start of the film.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well no it's not. Skywalker was on the floor completely helpless just watching Kenobi get defeated over a 10 second period.

How can that be inconsequential?

And the point, once again, is that per the article, Anakin and Kenobi were both level 8 duelists at the beginning of the film, and Anakin allegedly became a level 9 after turning to the dark side. Clearly that is false, and the "levels" statements are a load of BS, because the difference between a level 8 and 9 is "enormous", and clearly an "enormous" skill-gap did not exist between them. Simple.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not..

Originally posted by Galan007

Yes you are. That's all I really see you do, in fact.

Whatever dude. Your the one trying to make a big distinction in power output between Dark Side Anakin and Enraged Jedi Anakin.

That's not a distinction Nick Gillard made who said "that's the difference between Light and Dark" or Arhael has made to my understanding. Everyone knows that Enraged Anakin is zapping off power from the dark side of the force.

I was just pointing out how both the ROTS script and the ROTS novel clearly state the fact that Skywalker got stronger as he used more of his anger and as the fight progressed against Dooku.

That was in response to your "Well Anakin as a level 8 stomped Dooku."

It seems to me your the one arguing for the sake of it.

Originally posted by Galan007
"Semantics" Lol? Clearly you need to learn the definition of that word before trying to use it in a sentence.

Once more: Anakin momentarily utilizing anger vs. Dooku=/=turning to the dark side. Case in point: during AotC, Anakin murdered an entire camp-full of Sand People, and was likely experiencing MUCH more anger/hate/rage than he felt against Dooku--- yet he still didn't turn to the dark side. Do you understand what I mean?

"To be the victim of Anakin Skywalker's first cold-blooded murder.
First but not, he knows, the last.
Then the blades crossed at his throat uncross like scissors. Snip.
And all of him becomes nothing at all.
Murderer and murdered each stared blindly.
But only the murderer blinked.
I did that.
"I shouldn't have done that," he said, and now his voice came out solid, and simple, and final. Now he could look down at the corpse at his feet. He could look at the severed head.
He could see them for what they were.
A crime.
He'd become a war criminal.
In the Tusken camp he had lost his mind; he had become a force of nature, indiscriminate, killing with no more thought or intention than a sand gale. The Tuskens had been killed, slaugh- tered, massacred—but that had been beyond his control, and now it seemed to him as if it had been done by someone else: like a story he had heard that had little to do with him at all. But Dooku—

The main point to take away from all of this is that Kenobi is the overall superior fighter to Anakin... Simple, yet true.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The main point to take away from all of this is that Kenobi is the overall superior fighter to Anakin... Simple, yet true.

😆 😆

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"To be the victim of Anakin Skywalker's first cold-blooded murder.
First but not, he knows, the last.
Then the blades crossed at his throat uncross like scissors. Snip.
And all of him becomes nothing at all.
Murderer and murdered each stared blindly.
But only the murderer blinked.
I did that.
"I shouldn't have done that," he said, and now his voice came out solid, and simple, and final. Now he could look down at the corpse at his feet. He could look at the severed head.
He could see them for what they were.
A crime.
He'd become a war criminal.
[B]In the Tusken camp he had lost his mind; he had become a force of nature, indiscriminate, killing with no more thought or intention than a sand gale. The Tuskens had been killed, slaugh- tered, massacred—but that had been beyond his control, and now it seemed to him as if it had been done by someone else: like a story he had heard that had little to do with him at all. But Dooku— [/B]