Kenobi (ROTS) and Kit Fisto (ROTS) vs. Count Dooku (ROTS)

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That isn't the least bit true though.. The burden of proof STILL lies with you my friend.

I'm not just going to assume said emotions left him within a few-hour span of time. Lol? 🙂

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That would be like me saying... Anakin was still feeling guilt over slaying all those people after his mom died..

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anyways, Anakin is not enormously better than kenobi.. that is just silly

Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, but fighting defensively alone is not enough to bridge an "enormous" skill-gap-- hence Kenobi's defense being overwhelmed by Grievous, for example.

But wait! I thought Anakin was "enormously" more skillful? If he were THAT much better than Kenobi, why wasn't he able to capitalize on those advantage(s)? Because they were roughly the same level. That's why.

Thanks for helping prove my point. 👆

I took nothing out of context. The defense offered by Kenobi's Soresu was overwhelmed by Grievous-- the point is that Soresu is NOT invincible, and HAS been overwhelmed. Simple.

All things being equal, a Djem So or Juyo master is going to have the advantage over a Soresu master, because the latter forms are ideal for breaching the defense of Soresu.
This is very simple.

Actually there is an example fight of equals between Juyo and Soresu.
Marek in his Force vision was fighting his lightside counterpart. And he was unable to penetrated defenses of his opponent. On opposite Soresu practitioner penetrated his defenses:
The Jedi blocked it, too; just. Soresu was a defensive fighting style well suited to the close confines of the hut, but it wouldn't last forever against the malignant grace of Juyo.

The Jedi came in hard and fast before the apprentice could idly another attack. He cared little if the Jedi hit him, so long as damage was minimal. Close hits left flesh sizzling and armor smoking. The energy he saved on wild dodges he spent on tearing jagged planks from the walls and throwing them at the Jedi's head.

Originally posted by Galan007
PROVE to me that Anakin was no longer experiencing those overwhelming feelings when Kenobi encountered him.

Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back - What for Kenobi is desperate move, for Anakin it can be countered easily with contempt. That implies high performance.

Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!" Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks. - strength that nearly crushed Kenobi's bones is nothing short of best performance. Imagine how strong his attacks must have been. Such attacks can be countered only by giving ground.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, it does not. I've provided more than enough proof to support each and every claim I've made. Frankly, I no longer need to prove anything. It's your turn. PROVE to me that Anakin was no longer experiencing those overwhelming feelings when Kenobi encountered him.

I'm not just going to assume said emotions left him within a few-hour span of time. Lol? 🙂

It's nothing like that, actually.

Buddy, you said that emtions always effect a sith or jedi and you also mention in a negative way.. I cited two fights where combatants were feeling these SAME emotions you claim were hampering Anakin so much.. and they were shown experienced them EVEN CLOSER TO THE ACTUAL FIGHT and they still WON. Example being Kenobi vs. Maul and Luke vs. Vader... in both cases Luke and Kenobi felt guilt and sadness... Luke also felt confliction along with the above. You claim these emotions really hamper you as a fighter.. Yet, that isn't true is it?

Originally posted by Galan007
No, it does not. I've provided more than enough proof to support each and every claim I've made. Frankly, I no longer need to prove anything. It's your turn. PROVE to me that Anakin was no longer experiencing those overwhelming feelings when Kenobi encountered him.

I'm not just going to assume said emotions left him within a few-hour span of time. Lol? 🙂

It's nothing like that, actually.

I have provided proof... Anakin's actions and words..... Let me see where you're coming from here.. Did Anakin's ACTIONS DURING THE FIGHT.. Indicate ANY inklining of holding back or not trying to kill kenobi with all the vigor he could?

Next, we see Kenobi have doubt.. have confliction.. guilt.. in his convo with Yoda.. he doesn't want to go kill him.. That is confirmed confliction about killing Anakin. We see no such confliction with Anakin. Then.. when they meet.. we see again Kenobi expressing confliciton about killing Anakin.. whiile Anakin expresses no such conflction.. guilt.. remorse when talking to Kenobi. If he was as guility as you claim.. why was there no mention of it then? Then during the fight we see again... Kenobi's guilty sadness confliciton via canon narration HOLDING HIM BACK.. Yet there is NO MENTION NOT ONE LINE stating Anakin is having any doubts.. any remorse.. any conflction.. NOTHING. DOesn't get more clear than that. They went out of their way to show Kenobi had doubt about killing Anakin and even had him holding back at first... yet there isn't ONE MENTION of Anakin having his feelings effect his fighting. NOT ONE. Pretty open and shut case to me. if you have any proof it was effecting him.. now is the time big buddy.. If not, then these emotions weren't effecting him.

First off, Kenobi stopped holding back fairly early in their battle, as I proved.

Secondly, I've posted multiple statements made by Lucas himself in which he outright says that Anakin was experiencing remorse/guilt/confliction/doubt/etc. about the choices he'd made after turning to the dark side. I then solidified Lucas' statements by posting the scene in which Anakin was literally crying over the choices he'd made.... Yet you're still trying to say that such overwhelming emotions just.... Disappeared when Kenobi arrived? Okay, then PROVE IT. I have provided more than enough proof that Anakin was a mindphucked/emotional mess just prior to battling Kenobi-- thus the burden of proof falls solely on YOU to prove that he was no longer experiencing those feelings vs. Kenobi.

If you dodge my question again, then I will take it as your concession that you cannot provide such proof, and are arguing a moot point for no real reason.

Originally posted by Arhael
Because Kenobi was constantly giving ground. Also, don't twist what's in the text. It say difference is enormous. Skill wise, they were both equal, both masters. The enormous difference is about capabilities.

It was clear as day to everyone(except you) that Anakin was not an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi. Glad you changed your tune.

Originally posted by Galan007
First off, Kenobi stopped holding back fairly early in their battle, as I proved.

Secondly, I've posted multiple statements made by Lucas himself in which he outright says that Anakin was experiencing remorse/guilt/confliction/doubt/etc. about the choices he'd made after turning to the dark side. I then solidified Lucas' statements by posting the scene in which Anakin was literally crying over the choices he'd made.... Yet you're still trying to say that such overwhelming emotions just.... Disappeared when Kenobi arrived? Okay, then PROVE IT. I have provided more than enough proof that Anakin was a mindphucked/emotional mess just prior to battling Kenobi-- thus the burden of proof falls solely on YOU to prove that he was no longer experiencing those feelings vs. Kenobi.

If you dodge my question again, then I will take it as your concession that you cannot provide such proof, and are arguing a moot point for no real reason.

I did PROVIDE proof... but just so we're clear.. this is your position...

You have no proof that Anakin was negatively effected by his emotions during his battle with kenobi.. Yet, believe he still was because he was crying in one zero several hours before facing kenobi? Just so we're clear.. THAT is your position. You have admitted you have zero proof or narration stating he was effected IN ANYWAY during the battle.

Okay now.. let's try this again...

Nobody is questioning that Anakin at a point in time was feeling sadness... regret... guilt.. WHERE was this point being argued my friend? You keep going on and on about how you provided proof he was feeling this emtions at a point in time. However, nobody is disagreeing with that.. so why keep repeating it? The disagreement lies in him being effected by these at a later time during his battle with kenobi.. for THAT part you have provided ZERO proof.

Let's look at it this way.. you're saying... Common sense tell me that if Anakin was feeling this way at one point.. then these emtions can have a negative effect on somebody and cause them to not fight ot the best of their abilities..Fair? But you also admit you have no proof for that.. just using what could be the case and what could be logical in some cases.. Now...

I"M DOING THE SAME THING HERE.. Using Common sense and logic... THIS IS THE PROOF... and please try and address these points as possible.. plausible or not at all plausible

1. Anakin in talking to kenobi showed NO signs of guilt.. remorse... or anything other than Anger and Arrogance.. True no no? Couldn't it be logical to assume if he was overwhelmed by these emotions like you claim.. they would've come out in talking to Kenobi? Yet they never did.. FIRST COMMON SENSE PROOF.. which my friend is ALL you have as well.. so it needs to be treated with such weight as you're treating your opinion right?

2. If Anakin was so overwhelmed by guilt and remorse... logically one wouldn't think you would then do another terrible act and choke and innocent person you loved and turned to the DS to save.. How do that make logical sense to feelling guility? It doesn't correct? That is actually a sign of him feeling NO GUILT AT THAT TIME. Is this plausible?

3. kenobi expressed doubt.. confliction.. guilt prior to meeting Anakin... expressed it when talking to Anakin.. during his fight was holding back.. he SHOWED AND EXPRESSED SIGNS OF IT EFFECTING HIM right? Yet, if it was so overwhelming like you claim for Anakin.. why was there NO sign of it during his words or shown by him holding back Kenobi? That mekes again ZERO logical sense and points to there being no guilt.

4. I listed two fights in which people were feeling guility.. remorseful.. conflicted... even CLOSER TO WINNING A FIGHT than Anakin showed.. Did Kenobi against maul and Luke against Vader.. show signs of emotions? Did they still not win even though they felt these emotions you claim to be so hampering? More logical proof that not only can these emotions be overcome... but they have been overcome.. and overcome by people ACTUALLY SHOWING THEM RIGHT BEFORE THE FIGHT.. Anakin did so hours and hours before the fight. Is this not true?

That is the logical proof.. so please go through each and tlel me if that can't be logical correct and a sign he wasn't feeling guilty... now then.. YOU PROVIDE EVIDENCE AS I HAVE right beore the fight.. and during the fight that showed that Anakin was still effected by emotions and fighitng sub par becomes of them.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, you have completely shifted your stance now. You must've finally realized how ridiculous your previous stance was. 👆

It was clear as day to everyone(except you) that Anakin was not an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi. Glad you changed your tune.

Originally posted by Galan007
Thanks for helping prove my point. 👆

It's a habit of his.

Originally posted by Arhael
The difference was enormous because Kenobi was constantly giving ground. If Kenobi tried to fight offensively, he would die withing seconds.
It's like facing a professional boxer. If you are stupid enough to attack him, he will KO you no sweat. But if you constantly move away from him, he will have much harder time to reach you and deal his most devastating attacks. Defensive fighting is what helps to survive those, who are far better than you, that's a fact.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Gillard is 100% sure that it came from Lucas.

And you don't honestly think he would just make up the characters combat prowess himself without discussing it with Lucas first do you?

Or that Lucas would let him choreograph the fights without giving him an idea of their combat prowess?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
9>8. So that's that. Skywalker was the Stronger swordsman on even ground.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Doesn't mean Kenobi's Soresu mastery can't hold him off for a while and maybe defeat him in another way: By say using the terrain to his advantage and tactically outsmarting him.

''Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.''

Originally posted by mnat801
No, I just think that it totally condradicts what was shown on screen. The claim that there is a great difference between level 8 and 9 is unreliable because its very clear that Kenobi and Skywalker where an even match for each other. Why do you think many people have split opinions on the matter? If Kenobi was owned the way Dooku was owned then its case closed. Hoever the fact that Anakin never injured him, as well as Obi Wan being the last man standing, regardless of Anakin's conflicted emotions, mean that it definitely isn't clear that Anakin is the superior duelist.

What's obvious is down to interpretation really. It's not obvious to everyone that they were equal. Not at all. The majority look at that fight and see Skywalker as the more powerful combatant.

And that's exactly how it was choreographed to look as confirmed by the stunt coordinator.

Kenobi was equally "skilled", lasted a long time and tactically outsmarted him. That doesn't make him as powerful a swordsman.

Originally posted by mnat801

If Obi Wan can outsmart him on Mustafar, I don't see a reason for him not to outsmart him anywhere else.

Pretty unlikely. It took him a long time to take advantage of an environment that's all over the place so filled with opportunites.

There's nothing anywhere to suggest that Kenobi can simply outsmart Skywalker in any given environment before Skywalker breaches his defenses.

On a Tatooine dessert (for instance) it would only be a matter of time before Skywalker breaches Kenobi's defenses.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
''Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.''

They were equally skilled. But Skywalker was simply more powerful.

Yes, I'm pointing it out because it's a big factor that they know each other so well, so of course the weaker combatant would stand a good chance, especially Kenobi as his defense is so good.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What's obvious is down to interpretation really. It's not obvious to everyone that they were equal. Not at all. The majority look at that fight and see Skywalker as the more powerful combatant.

And that's exactly how it was choreographed to look as confirmed by the stunt coordinator.

Kenobi was equally "skilled", lasted a long time and tactically outsmarted him. That doesn't make him as powerful a swordsman.

Pretty unlikely. It took him a long time to take advantage of an environment that's all over the place so filled with opportunites.

There's nothing anywhere to suggest that Kenobi can simply outsmart Skywalker in any given environment before Skywalker breaches his defenses.

On a Tatooine dessert (for instance) it would only be a matter of time before Skywalker breaches Kenobi's defenses.

They were equally skilled. But Skywalker was simply more powerful.

No no and no Big DP... That is EXACTLY what is very likely to happen. No matter the situation... Kenobi can and would also have the mental edge on Anakin.. Which by the way is no small feat... some might say the mind is the most powerful weapon. He's calmer under fire... not arrogant.. not brash.. and tactically smarter than Anakin. THese are all huge factors in a one v one fight. Kenobi would also be able to take advantage of Anakin mentally no matter where they fought.

I don't know why you keep saying Anakin was the more powerful duelist.. He wasn't.. got dismembered and left NO lasting scars on Kenobi besides mental ones. He out thought him and baited him into making that dumb move. Kenobi wass shown to be the better duelist... If by more powerful you simply mean Anakin is stronger.. Okay sure... but that is about it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No no and no Big DP... That is EXACTLY what is very likely to happen. No matter the situation... Kenobi can and would also have the mental edge on Anakin.. Which by the way is no small feat... some might say the mind is the most powerful weapon. He's calmer under fire... not arrogant.. not brash.. and tactically smarter than Anakin. THese are all huge factors in a one v one fight. Kenobi would also be able to take advantage of Anakin mentally no matter where they fought.

If that was true he would have defeated him much earlier.

Since he was only able to take advantage of his f***ed up mentality after such a long sword fight was coming to an end and even that required taking advantage of a frigging Lava Pool, I'd say for Kenobi to outsmart Sith Anakin in a re-match is hardly as likely as you make out.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I don't know why you keep saying Anakin was the more powerful duelist.. He wasn't.. got dismembered and left NO lasting scars on Kenobi besides mental ones. He out thought him and baited him into making that dumb move. Kenobi wass shown to be the better duelist... If by more powerful you simply mean Anakin is stronger.. Okay sure... but that is about it.

The stunt coordinator makes it clear that Skywalker was the more powerful duelist.

Even if you think Kenobi is always likely to outsmart Sith Anakin into defeat (unlikely Imho) then that may make Kenobi the superior overall combatant when faced against Skywalker. But it doesn't make him the superior Swordsman or Force User.

They were equally skilled but Skywalker was much stronger and he can tank force attacks much better.

Those superior attributes are why he can consistently stalemate a power house like Count Dooku when Kenobi has no chance in hell against the awesomeness of the Count.

It's also why he consistently performs better against Ventress. In fact I can't think of an opponent whom Kenobi can beat but Skywalker can't. It just doesn't happen.

Not true...

First, he was holding back at the start.. so that exludes part of the fight. Second, the constant change in levels and terrain also makes it difficult for Kenobi.. He's also having to constantly adjust levels and as well as balance while being attacked. That makes it harder to look for an opening and exploit it. Plus, that is just how Soresu fights anyways... So when you look at the totality of the fight... one could argue it might have happened earlier had in been on neutral ground.

Yes Kenobi is the superior overall combatant and that has been my point the whole time. If you want to have Anakin be more powerful (however you define said word) okay, but kneobi is superior overall and that has always been my point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi Yes Kenobi is the superior overall combatant and that has been my point the whole time. If you want to have Anakin be more powerful (however you define said word) okay, but kneobi is superior overall and that has always been my point.