Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The main point to take away from all of this is that Kenobi is the overall superior fighter to Anakin... Simple, yet true.
Obviously. That's why Kenobi consistently stalemates a powerhouse like Count Dooku during the Clone Wars and even defeated him by ROTS.
No Wait...
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
DP Buddy.. Wouldn't you say Kenobi has looked superior actually Ventress compared to Anakin? Actually besting her and easier?
Hardly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7JsP3tn9s0
Obi-Wan got floored knocked senseless at 0:43 whilst Skywalker held his own against an especially enraged Ventress.
Just anther example of Skywalker performing better than Kenobi against the exact same opponent at the exact same time.
And Dooku's the better test of whose in the big leagues seen as the powerhouse that he is. Ventress is small fry in comparison.
Originally posted by Galan007
You did switch your stance. It's laughably obvious.Now you're trying to act like Anakin was a "level 9" when he battled Dooku, despite the quotes you posted saying that he only became a "level 9" after turning to the dark side:
So per your quotes, Anakin was a "level 8" when he fought Dooku, just like Kenobi--- yet Kenobi was tooled by Dooku, while Anakin slew him with ease. Fast-forward to their duel on Mustafar, and Kenobi/Anakin stalemated the entire time(be them in close-quarters or open-quarters)... Yet by this point Anakin had supposedly become a "level 9", making him an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi? Yeah, it's an absolutely ridiculous claim--- one that no one is buying.
All you really seem to be doing is making stuff up, because you know your original 'logic' has failed you. Miserably. Bottom line: pick a stance and stick with it-- don't change your tune multiple times throughout a thread, and act like the new stance you shifted to is what you've been saying the entire time. It's ridiculous and overtly childish. You are/were wrong. I know it, you know it. Simple. 🙂
No, I didn't change my stance. My stance was that Anakin had much higher prowess. All the rant followed simply because for you word "enormous" means that one stomps another, when for me it doesn't as I don't apply "Karpyshyn logic".
As for fight with Dooku, levels are not specified for that fight. All we know is that Anakin wasn't that good until he embraced rage. Perhaps it made him level 9, perhaps not, we don't know.
Originally posted by ArhaelPer the article you posted, Anakin was not intended to be a "level 9" until he turned to the dark side-- as the entire article centers around his and Kenobi's final battle on Mustafar.
As for fight with Dooku, levels are not specified for that fight. All we know is that Anakin wasn't that good until he embraced rage. Perhaps it made him level 9, perhaps not, we don't know.
Everyone(else) can see that an enormous skill-gap was not present between them(neither the film or the novel depict such), which subsequently renders Gillard's "levels" comments all but invalid. That's my only point endastory. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
Per the article you posted, Anakin was not intended to be a "level 9" until he turned to the dark side-- as the entire article centers around his and Kenobi's final battle on Mustafar.Everyone(else) can see that an enormous skill-gap was not present between them, which subsequently renders Gillard's "levels" comments all but invalid. That's my only point endastory. 👆
Another source just states Anakin as level nine along with Yoda and Windu without any specifics.
In any case I was talking about style differences, when you got involved. I was unconcerned, if there was any difference in Anakin's prowess against Dooku and Kenobi.
So in confines of styles do you agree that fighter that is used to fight defensively will fair better than offensive fighter that was forced on the defensive?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Did that more powerful ventress have a saber and anakin did not.. and yet Anakin still won? If not, it' snot as impressive.
You know your not making sense right now. She was more powerful when she knocked Kenobi down but Anakin held his own.
That's actually the second time he's been defeated by Ventress (or close to defeated). Skywalker's never been defeated by her.
Not to mention the only reason Kenobi was dodging her without his Saber in TCW movie in the first place was because she disarmed him.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So not as good then? Okay I got it buddy. Kenobi has defeated Ven in a more dominating fashion than Anakin has...
Actually now that I think about it he Skywalker defeated her without a Lightsaber in the CW Mini.
And he totally battered her after that in a rage.
Skywalker has never lost to Ventress and has battered her more than once.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
U do realize in the clip you showed.. Kenobi lands a kick on ventress that Anakin was never able to land and Kenobi was the one who disarms her.. This was suppose to be impressive for Anakin?
Yeah he only survived long enough to do that because Skywalker was there to save him (As Usual).
He got flat out floored by her in the first few seconds. Skywalker's never done so badly against her in Saber combat. Has always at least held his own and has never lost to her.
And he's battered her at least twice. Once in a Clone Wars comic book and once in the Clone Wars mini.
Are you serious?
''Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.
In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.
Exchanges flashed. Leaps were sideslipped or met with flying kicks; ankle sweeps skipped over and punches parried. The door of the control center fell in pieces, and then they were inside among the bodies. Consoles exploded in fountains of white-hot sparks as they ripped free of their moorings and hurtled through the air. Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet.
Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.
"Don't make me destroy you, Obi-Wan." Anakin's voice had gone deeper than a well and bleak as the obsidian cliffs. "You're no match for the power of the dark side."
"I've heard that before," Obi-Wan said through his teeth, parrying madly, "but I never thought I'd hear it from vow."
A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill.
Obi-Wan had only one trick left, one that wouldn't work twice-But it was a very good trick.
It had, after all, worked rather splendidly on Grievous . . .
He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.
Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free.
Obi-Wan reached. Anakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. "The flaw of power is arrogance."
"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion-"
"It's not compassion," Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."
He sighed. "It's regret for the man you should have been."
Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"
Dark power bore down with his grip.
Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.
Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad.
With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.
His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.
Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders.
Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the black-sand shoreline of a lake of fire.
Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.
It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.
Fire rained around them.
Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop.
Anakin came on.
Out on the tightrope of power conduit, their blades blurred even faster than before. They chopped and slashed and parried and blocked. Lava bombs thundered to the ground below, shedding drops of burning stone that scorched their robes. Smoke shrouded the planet's star, and now the only light came from the hell-glow of the lava below them and from their blades themselves. Flares of energy crackled and spat.
This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.
It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.
Personally.
Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.
Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.
The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ...
Obi-Wan still loved him.
Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.
Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...
He let it go.
The lake of fire, no longer held back by the ray shield, chewed away the shore on which the plant stood, and the whole massive structure broke loose, sending both warriors skidding, scrabbling desperately for handholds down tilting durasteel slopes that were rapidly becoming cliffs; they hung from scraps of cable as the plant's superstructure floated out into the lava, sinking slowly as its lower levels melted and burned away.
Anakin kicked off from the toppling superstructure, swinging through a wide arc over the lava's boil. Obi-Wan shoved out and met him there, holding the cable with one hand and the Force, angling his blade high. Anakin flicked a Shien whipcrack at his knees. Obi-Wan yanked his legs high and slashed through the cable above Anakin's hand, and Anakin fell.
Pockets of gas boiled to the surface of the lava, gouting flame like arms reaching to gather him in.
But Anakin's momentum had already swung back toward the dissolving wreck of the collection plant, and the Force carried him within reach of another cable. Obi-Wan whipped his legs around his cable, altering its arc to bring him within reach of the one from which Anakin now dangled, but Anakin was on to this game now, and he swung cable-to-cable ahead of Obi-Wan's advance, using the Force to carry himself higher and higher, forcing Obi-Wan to counter by doing the same; on this terrain, altitude was everything.
Simultaneous surges of the Force carried them both spinning up off the cables to the slant of the toppling superstructure's crane deck. Obi-Wan barely got his feet on the metal before Anakin pounced on him and they stood almost toe-to-toe, blades whirling and crashing on all sides, while around them the collection plant's maintenance droids still tinkered mindlessly away at the doomed machinery, as they would continue to do until lava closed over them and they melted to their constituent molecules and dissolved into the flow.
A roar louder even than the volcano's eruption came from the river ahead; metal began to shriek and stretch. The river dropped away in a vertical sheet of fire that vanished into boiling clouds of smoke and gases.
The whole collection plant was being carried, inexorably, out over a vast lava-fall.
Obi-Wan decided he didn't really want to see what was at the bottom.
He turned Anakin's blade aside with a two-handed block and landed a solid kick that knocked the two apart. Before Anakin could recover his balance, Obi-Wan took a running leap that became a graceful dive headlong off the crane deck. He hurtled down past level after level, and only a few tens of meters above the lava itself the Force called a dangling cable to his hand, turning his dive into a swing that carried him high and far, to the very limit of the cable.
And he let it go.
As though jumping from a swing in the Temple playrooms, his velocity sent him flying up and out over a catenary arc that shot him toward the river's shore. Toward. Not quite to.
-RotS Novelization
...
''ANAKIN forces OBI-WAN back into the Conference Room where the quarters are much closer.''
''ANAKIN forces OBI-WAN down a narrow balcony outside the Control Room. He rips objects off the wall and throws them at OBI-WAN as he pushes him further and further along the walkway.
The balcony ends, and OBI-WAN is trapped. He looks over the balcony and into a river of lava. ''
-RotS Script
Both the Novel and Script has Anakin dominating...
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No, what it shows beyond a shadow of doubt is that Kenobi was holding back all the way till they were fighting on the lava river... That is to say.. he was holding bakc for most of the fight... That makes kenobi's performance even better.. not worse.
Based on the novel, it does suggest Kenobi was hesitant to kill Anakin until he let go during some part of the fight. Not to mention I'd we use the novel to fill in gaps when they fought, Kenobi had Vader without sabers, but mercy held his hand.