Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Perhaps, but defeating Darth Sidious before you even hit your prime comes to mind in terms of his feats. Also in terms of force feats he has
Absorbed turbolaser blasts from AT-ATs, and knocked them over.Destroying the Fortress of Darth Vader
Manipulation of a micro black hole.
Twenty Lightsabers at once feat as of NJO. (Still not peak of his power)
Electric Judgement.
Stated that when hunkered down not even the black hole at the center of the galaxy could move him (possibly hyperbole but still).
Beating Sidious has always been ambiguous due to Leia possibly helping him. The idea that he legitimately beat Sidious has always been unbelievable.
And the twenty lightsabers happened during Battle Meld.
As for everything else, what exactly there makes you think he can pwn either Bane or Krayt? Or would? As I said, Luke pretty much never offensively uses the Force. He's Yoda's disciple after all and Yoda flat-out told him that a Jedi shouldn't use the Force for attack. And when he has, he does not 'pwn' his opponents. He certainly won't pwn opponents of this calibur.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I'm not relying solely on quotes. Luke has significant feats to back up his claim. To rank him with ROTS Zoneakin in sabers really doesn't seem far-fetched to me, especially considering Zoneakin isn't even Anakin with maxxed potential.
Zonakin is extremely iffy. It only happens once and we could easily call that occurrence akin to the massive boost that Luke got from embracing his rage. It's a one-time thing. Anakin doesn't ever show that level of ease with anyone after that and Dooku was likely tired as **** by that point. Yes the text says he rejuvenated himself but we don't know to what degree. The idea that he went from nearly spent to 100% inside of a few seconds is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Galan007
Based on what is Krayt superior to Dooku?
Well, let's see. A young Krayt was at least on par with post-RotS Obi-Wan in sabers, losing only because Obi-Wan was better in the force. A young-ish Krayt was able to solo a ship of Vong.
And then he became so strong in the force he could raise himself from the dead, use shatterpoints (including using a variation of the healing power to kill someone he laid hands on), and had powerful force illusions. Even his second-in-command Wyyrlock was able to kill Darth Andeddu, the strongest Sith of *his* time and someone Dooku considered a great and powerful sith of old, at Andeddu's own speciality of sith sorcery, and Krayt could overcome Wyyrlock's sith sorcery illusions where the master of sorcery failed, and deflect force lightning with his bare hand. He also killed Emperor Fel's personal bodyguard of Imperial Knights in about two seconds while surrounded.
Krayt was also effective in the him-and-Luke vs Abeloth fight.
Between illusions and shatterpoints/dark transfer, I'd say he's better than Dooku in the force, and he's a very good saber master too- even if we assume he didn't improve in sabers at all from his Obi-wan fight, he got much stronger in the force and gained shatterpoints which'd increase his threat in melee alone.
Krayt is quite similar in level to Bane IMO, while Wyyrlock is a better comparison for Dooku.
Team 2 wins, but more because Luke's a very strong link rather than Team 1 having any weak links.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Beating Sidious has always been ambiguous due to Leia possibly helping him. The idea that he legitimately beat Sidious has always been unbelievable.
It wasn't legit, but at the same time, still impressive for a not prime Luke.
And the twenty lightsabers happened during Battle Meld.
Again, still not Prime Luke.
As for everything else, what exactly there makes you think he can pwn either Bane or Krayt? Or would? As I said, Luke pretty much never offensively uses the Force. He's Yoda's disciple after all and Yoda flat-out told him that a Jedi shouldn't use the Force for attack. And when he has, he does not 'pwn' his opponents. He certainly won't pwn opponents of this calibur.
The same Yoda who said 'Destroy the Sith we must'....
Zonakin is extremely iffy. It only happens once and we could easily call that occurrence akin to the massive boost that Luke got from embracing his rage. It's a one-time thing. Anakin doesn't ever show that level of ease with anyone after that and Dooku was likely tired as **** by that point. Yes the text says he rejuvenated himself but we don't know to what degree. The idea that he went from nearly spent to 100% inside of a few seconds is ridiculous.
Prove Dooku was tired as hell. Seriously, it's stated he was rejuvenated it's up to you to prove that he wasn't.
Again, Zoneakin isn't even top Anakin. You're gonna have a hard time convincing me and the rest of the board that Luke isn't ROTS Zoneakin level. Not NJO Luke, not DE Luke, but Prime Luke should be Prime Anakin level...I'd argue he's a bit below because of the blood being diluted, but I'd see him as being approximately ROTS Zoneakin level.
Originally posted by Vensai
No necessarily. Still Luke and Yoda win this as each are better than either of the Sith.
Anakin did some force pushing and such, but he didn't really get into much force offense until he got his armor. I've seen Luke do a good deal more.
And yea. Yoda vs either individually is a hard fight that I'd give to Yoda, and Luke even more-so.
Nephthys
As I said, Luke pretty much never offensively uses the Force.
Has it become custom to hinge the outcome of battles on character idiosyncrasies? You're all but scripting the fight on Luke's strained morality to leverage a more favorable outcome for Bane.
The bottom line is that we have seen plenty of instances of what Luke is capable of when the circumstances demand it and he's simply above and beyond Bane by a considerable margin. He's just better.
Nephthys
The idea that he went from nearly spent to 100% inside of a few seconds is ridiculous.
That is very clearly what the text indicates and your threshold for what does and what does not constitute ridiculous continues to astound.
In a mythology where [your favorite] characters cause planet-wide catastrophe with mere utterances, snap their fingers and mind-rape "the galaxy's strongest Jedi!!1!" and keep torrential downpours at bay with a meter long stick, how on earth is rapid rejuvenation "ridiculous"?
Try replacing "Dooku" with "Bane" and I think it will endear the passage to you. 313
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It wasn't legit, but at the same time, still impressive for a not prime Luke.Again, still not Prime Luke.
Okay, but not enough to say he could pwn Bane or Krayt.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The same Yoda who said 'Destroy the Sith we must'....
And then did nothing more than push Sidious across a desk. Where was his carrier-ship class TK in that battle exactly? Either way, perhaps Yoda changed his philosophy after that, it doesn't come in to how he taught Luke. You can't argue with a direct freaking quote.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove Dooku was tired as hell. Seriously, it's stated he was rejuvenated it's up to you to prove that he wasn't.
No, it says that power flowed into him and that afterwards the weight of his years fell away, so he recovered enough to support himself with the Force. However it does not say that he was completely recovered, or that he wasn't tired. He could easily have recovered just enough to support himself. Anakin meanwhile was described as constantly getting stronger throughout the fight and he did fight Dooku in that state for a time which could have tired Dooku out again.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Again, Zoneakin isn't even top Anakin. You're gonna have a hard time convincing me and the rest of the board that Luke isn't ROTS Zoneakin level. Not NJO Luke, not DE Luke, but Prime Luke should be Prime Anakin level...I'd argue he's a bit below because of the blood being diluted, but I'd see him as being approximately ROTS Zoneakin level.
The idea that Luke would be able to beat Dooku simply by deciding to like Anakin did is blatantly silly. He has fought less powerful opponents and not beaten them with that level of ease.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Has it become custom to hinge the outcome of battles on character idiosyncrasies? You're all but scripting the fight on Luke's strained morality to leverage a more favorable outcome for Bane.
No, just pointing out that Luke hasn't ever pwned someone with the Force in an actual fight before, therefore he lacks those feats. And it's not as if Luke is an unknown quantity, he's the most exposed character in Star Wars after all.
Is it so hard to believe that Luke simply isn't that versed in offensive Force-use considering he is a Jedi, his track-record of relying on his lightsaber in duels and that he was taught not to attack with the Force? Not to mention that epiphany he had with Mara Jade about not doing big flashy uses of the Force.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The bottom line is that we have seen plenty of instances of what Luke is capable of when the circumstances demand it and he's simply above and beyond Bane by a considerable margin. He's just better.
I've never disagreed that Luke is Bane's superior, however you are seriously overblowing the degree. Luke does not have the lightsaber or Force feats to support a stomp of Bane.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That is very clearly what the text indicates and your threshold for what does and what does not constitute ridiculous continues to astound.In a mythology where [your favorite] characters cause planet-wide catastrophe with mere utterances, snap their fingers and mind-rape "the galaxy's strongest Jedi!!1!" and keep torrential downpours at bay with a meter long stick, how on earth is rapid rejuvenation "ridiculous"?
Try replacing "Dooku" with "Bane" and I think it will endear the passage to you. 313
Internal consistency and suspension of disbelief are different. If all it takes is a second to recover completely then Jedi would have virtually limitless stamina and would never get tired, despite the countless examples of Jedi being in a similar situation to Dooku and not recovering that fast. If Qui-Gon could have instantly recovered completely then why does he collapse on the floor panting after his first fight with Maul? That's a G-canon example clashing with your interpretation right there. And didn't it take Luke like half a day to recover from an ordeal in Apocolypse? And several minutes from using illusions in Swarm War? Bane was ****ing wiped after he fought that room of technobeasts. I can keep going with this.
Nephthys
No, just pointing out that Luke hasn't ever pwned someone with the Force in an actual fight before, therefore he lacks those feats. And it's not as if Luke is an unknown quantity, he's the most exposed character in Star Wars after all.Is it so hard to believe that Luke simply isn't that versed in offensive Force-use considering he is a Jedi, his track-record of relying on his lightsaber in duels and that he was taught not to attack with the Force? Not to mention that epiphany he had with Mara Jade about not doing big flashy uses of the Force.
Which comes down to conflating idiosyncrasy with inability. I've argued both sides of this before, so what you're saying is nothing new.
If this fight were taking place in an actual novel, then I'm sure it would consist of characteristic Star Wars tropes like Power Seepage and Near-Villain Victories before Bane insulted Luke's mother, prompting him to make with teh smackdown.
But we're talking about what Luke is capable of and what he's capable of is reducing Bane to tears.
Nephthys
I've never disagreed that Luke is Bane's superior, however you are seriously overblowing the degree. Luke does not have the lightsaber or Force feats to support a stomp of Bane.
Not really. Luke has dismantled castles without benefit of a Force nexus, overpowered Force titans imbued with the energy of countless drones, and routinely embarrasses the galaxy's foremost Eldritch Abomination. Darth Bane is a chump in comparison, brah.
Nephthys
Internal consistency and suspension of disbelief are different. If all it takes is a second to recover completely then Jedi would have virtually limitless stamina and would never get tired, despite the countless examples of Jedi being in a similar situation to Dooku and not recovering that fast. If Qui-Gon could have instantly recovered completely then why does he collapse on the floor panting after his first fight with Maul? That's a G-canon example clashing with your interpretation right there. And didn't it take Luke like half a day to recover from an ordeal in Apocolypse? And several minutes from using illusions in Swarm War? Bane was ****ing wiped after he fought that room of technobeasts. I can keep going with this.
Please do. But the moment we start introducing G-canon clashes, I'mma dismember Bane, Nihilus, and Vitiate with impunity just to illustrate how very lost your cause is. excellent
Sorry in advance for the mega-post. I usually hate typing this much. 🙁
Originally posted by Q99I've lost count of how many times Dooku has owned Kenobi-- whereas Kenobi owned Krayt(then A'Sharad) in front of his own people.
Well, let's see. A young Krayt was at least on par with post-RotS Obi-Wan in sabers, losing only because Obi-Wan was better in the force.
So if we are using Kenobi as our gauge, then Dooku>>>Krayt.
Originally posted by Q99He utilized force lightning to kill them, iirc. Definitely not above Dooku's ability.
A young-ish Krayt was able to solo a ship of Vong.
Originally posted by Q99As awesome as it was, Krayt raising himself from the dead took a great deal of time. Therefore, it is an inconsequential ability in a versus battle.
And then he became so strong in the force he could raise himself from the dead, use shatterpoints (including using a variation of the healing power to kill someone he laid hands on), and had powerful force illusions.
Forgot he gained the ability to see Shatterpoints. However, that still isn't a sure-fire path to victory, unless there happens to be a specific Shatterpoint that can affect the outcome of the battle/person-- and Shatterpoints are always changing, and never constant.
Force Drain is likely the best option Krayt has over Dooku. However, it's possible that Dooku might be able to negate most of the negative affects of Force Drain by utilizing the living force to heal himself. Additionally, Force Drain seemed to require: a.) Krayt to physically touch the thing he wanted to drain-- he may not ever get that close to Dooku, and b.) a good deal of time to complete-- something Dooku would not give him.
Dunno how much of a factor force illusions would play(if any)..? He used the ability a few times, but meh...
Originally posted by Q99I was never overly impressed by the IK's, tbh. Dooku would obliterate them.
He also killed Emperor Fel's personal bodyguard of Imperial Knights in about two seconds while surrounded.
Originally posted by Q99Yeah, he Drained the shit out of Abeloth. He couldn't have done it w/o Luke pinning it down, though(and vice versa.) T'was a great feat nonetheless... Although the Drain still required Krayt to physically touch Abeloth, iirc.
Krayt was also effective in the him-and-Luke vs Abeloth fight.
Either way, given some of Dooku's uber feats(fighting Yoda nigh-evenly on a few occasions, being stated as one of two Jedi capable of out-sparring Mace, tooling multiple Nightsisters+Asajj while blinded, etc.) I don't believe the Abeloth instance is enough to put Krayt above Dooku.
Originally posted by Q99Krayt learned some amazing force abilities, no doubt about it. However, the only force powers I could see him negatively affecting Dooku with in a battle are Force Drain and Shatterpoint-- but like I said, those abilities are extremely circumstantial, and certainly do not equate to auto-wins.
Between illusions and shatterpoints/dark transfer, I'd say he's better than Dooku in the force, and he's a very good saber master too- even if we assume he didn't improve in sabers at all from his Obi-wan fight, he got much stronger in the force and gained shatterpoints which'd increase his threat in melee alone.
Also remember that Dooku was no putz with the force either:
"[Dooku] called upon the Force, gathering it to himself and wrapping himself within it. He breathed it in and held it whirling inside his heart, clenching down upon it until he could feel the spin of the galaxy around him. Until he became the axis of the Universe. This was the real power of the dark side, the power he had suspected even as a boy, had sought through his long life until Darth Sidious had shown him that it had been his all along. The dark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. It made him the center. He drew power into his innermost being until the Force itself existed only to serve his will." - RotS
---
At any rate, I could buy-off on the notion that Krayt is more skilled than Dooku with the force alone. However, in a 'sabers only' and/or 'all-out' scenario, I don't think Krayt's done nearly enough to put him over Dooku. He could likely give Dooku a very good fight, but he's not winning imo.
"No, just pointing out that Luke hasn't ever pwned someone with the Force in an actual fight before, therefore he lacks those feats.. And it's not as if Luke is an unknown quantity, he's the most exposed character in Star Wars after all.
Is it so hard to believe that Luke simply isn't that versed in offensive Force-use considering he is a Jedi, his track-record of relying on his lightsaber in duels and that he was taught not to attack with the Force? Not to mention that epiphany he had with Mara Jade about not doing big flashy uses of the Force.
"Nephthys
r u saying luke cant pwn ppl with the force, or that he chooses not to. i feel that hes proven he can, he just doesnt due to self imposed limitations. 1 of my favorite examples is from dark nest 1 when he fights welk.
"luke righted himself but he was still moving in slow motion, and welk was already coming again. Luke reached out in the force, bringing his thumb and forefinger togeather."
"Welks lipless mouth fell open. Dire gurgling sounds began to rise from his throat-and then luke remembered alemas sacrifice of the membrosia giver. had he grown that casual about killing? so accustomed to the power he wielded that he would use it to kill when he had other means to defend himself?"
"Luke opened his fingers and released Welk."
Originally posted by The_TempestYeah, and in the comic series Republic, Dooku acquired Darth Andeddu's holocron-- so he at least *seemed* interested in learning about some of the more arcane Sith teachings.
Well, it is strongly implied via Dark Rendezvous that Dooku was educated in esoteric Sith powers... but the movies insist that Force lightning is about the darkest you get lol.
To bad that side of Dooku was never extrapolated on. :/