Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which comes down to conflating idiosyncrasy with inability. I've argued both sides of this before, so what you're saying is nothing new.If this fight were taking place in an actual novel, then I'm sure it would consist of characteristic Star Wars tropes like Power Seepage and Near-Villain Victories before Bane insulted Luke's mother, prompting him to make with teh smackdown.
But we're talking about what Luke is capable of and what he's capable of is reducing Bane to tears.
Again you miss my point. I did not say that he was necessarily unable, only that he has not, therefore we cannot say that he is able. Bane has plenty of feats of pwning someone with the Force. Luke, not so much. Other than an unknown like Welk I suppose. And his feats aside from that not enough to say that he could pimpslap a foe like Bane around.
No. he isn't.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really. Luke has dismantled castles without benefit of a Force nexus, overpowered Force titans imbued with the energy of countless drones, and routinely embarrasses the galaxy's foremost Eldritch Abomination. Darth Bane is a chump in comparison, brah.
As I recall, Luke overpowered neither Unuthul or Abeloth with the Force. Unuthul has little in the way of impressive showings beyond 'empowered by billions!' which as Vitiate absorbing 8,000 Sith Lords showed does not necessarily mean that their power is literally multiplied. And Abeloth he had help in all? of their fights?
Also can I get some info on Luke dismantling Vader's castle? IIRC he did it brick by brick, which while impressive is more a feat of stamina that actual power.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Please do. But the moment we start introducing G-canon clashes, I'mma dismember Bane, Nihilus, and Vitiate with impunity just to illustrate how very lost your cause is. excellent
Do it. I ****ing double dare you bro. It'll be a laugh to see how you can possibly twist something to do with them into a G-canon clash.
Well, welcome to a lot of the SW EU. Shitty writers mixed with good ones (Zahn)
Hell, next thing they will do is have that bi*** who wrote Twilight write a book for it to make moar moneys.
Besides, their, "Actual Threats" are things like Abeloth. Who is so ridiculously ridiculous that it breaks the Suspension of Disbelief.
Or Nihilus. Again, stupid. Vitiate, stupid. See a pattern here?
I've lost count of how many times Dooku has owned Kenobi-- whereas Kenobi owned Krayt(then A'Sharad) in front of his own people.So if we are using Kenobi as our gauge, then Dooku>>>Krayt.
Except all of those were pre-Mustafar Kenobi, often well before, and we've seen how good late-CW Kenobi was getting against the Maul brothers and such. Kenobi's biggest probably against Dooku wasn't pure sabers but more his lack of force defense. A'Sharad did well against post-RotS Kenobi, while he was still in top condition, and while he was protecting baby Luke.
And Krayt is significantly more powerful than A'Sharad was. We know growing stronger in the force aids saber combat.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Krayt and Wyyrlok are both probably greater scholars of the dark side than is the Count, but as a swordsman and general duelist, he comes off looking better.
Even though he, by all appearances, is better than the Kenobi who beat Anakin in lightsabers?
Here's a chain for you: Krayt was easily overpowering Cade Skywalker in Claws of the Dragon without trying hard, shortly after he beat Darth Talon and Darth Nihl.
Talon on her own was about equal to Imperial Knight Draco.
Draco was part of Princess Fel's rescue force. During which the four of them faced about 8 Sith, and beat them outnumberd 2:1. Ok, so Draco took down two sith, not that impressive yet, right? Then there were a half-dozen more Sith who were coming so Draco decided to hold them off on his own, and killed all six solo.
People like Draco and Ganner Krieg and Shado Vao and Darth Talon and Nihl find no problem taking down a half-dozen full Sith or Jedi (as the case may be, depending on side) on their own, yet that level, or even Cade's level which was higher, clearly isn't enough to even provide Krayt with a challenge.
Nor for that matter was Celeste Morne, a century-old KotoR era Master who was drawing upon the power of the Muur talisman for additional strength, and who could only keep up a degrading defensive position.
Heck, the only one to give Krayt an even matchup in sabers in the entire series, was Wyyrlock.
The throne room fight is something I don't think Dooku has an equal of. Facing the Emperor's Personal Guard of Knights, including their leader, his Cousin. The plan of the Knights was literally to fight off over a dozen sith and all soldiers present, and escape.
And, with Krayt surrounded, the four of them lasted maybe, maybe three seconds. That's some Palpatine-stuff right there.
Originally posted by Q99Dooku owned Kenobi during RotS twice. Whereas, A'Sharad was owned by Kenobi.
Except all of those were pre-Mustafar Kenobi,
Trying to use Kenobi as a gauge really doesn't help your case.
Originally posted by Q99He'd better be, as Dooku was *also* significantly more powerful than A'Sharad-- as evident by the fact that Dooku owned Kenobi, who owned A'Sharad.
And Krayt is significantly more powerful than A'Sharad was. We know growing stronger in the force aids saber combat.
Originally posted by Q99Better than Kenobi in what area, exactly? The force? Absolutely. A better duelist, though? I certainly haven't seen proof of that.
Even though he, by all appearances, is better than the Kenobi who beat Anakin in lightsabers?
...And Kenobi didn't beat Anakin in sabers, btw. Anakin's own arrogance is what beat him. Saber-wise they stalemated, but that's neither here nor there.
Originally posted by Q99The IK's really did nothing of note that I recall, and the best thing Nihl ever did was kill a *featless* descendant of Skywalker. Impressive to be sure, but Dooku has battled Yoda nigh-evenly. Next to that, Talon and Nihl are less than nothing.
Here's a chain for you: Krayt was easily overpowering Cade Skywalker in Claws of the Dragon without trying hard, shortly after he beat Darth Talon and Darth Nihl.Talon on her own was about equal to Imperial Knight Draco.
Draco was part of Princess Fel's rescue force. During which the four of them faced about 8 Sith, and beat them outnumberd 2:1. Ok, so Draco took down two sith, not that impressive yet, right? Then there were a half-dozen more Sith who were coming so Draco decided to hold them off on his own, and killed all six solo.
People like Draco and Ganner Krieg and Shado Vao and Darth Talon and Nihl find no problem taking down a half-dozen full Sith or Jedi (as the case may be, depending on side) on their own, yet that level, or even Cade's level which was higher, clearly isn't enough to even provide Krayt with a challenge.
Originally posted by Q99Lotta words. How do Morne's feats compare to anyone mentioned?
Nor for that matter was Celeste Morne, a century-old KotoR era Master who was drawing upon the power of the Muur talisman for additional strength, and who could only keep up a degrading defensive position.
Originally posted by Q99Great. The only one to give Dooku an even matchup in sabers(aside from Zonakin, obviously) was Yoda-- master of ALL forms of lightsaber combat. none
Heck, the only one to give Krayt an even matchup in sabers in the entire series, was Wyyrlock.
Originally posted by Q99Palpatine-stuff? Now you're going a bit overboard. Afaik, the IK's don't even have feats to put them near Ventress' or Grievous' skill level(both of whom Dooku schooled regularly, btw)-- so I'm not sure how soloing a few of them=Palpatine-stuff..?
The throne room fight is something I don't think Dooku has an equal of. Facing the Emperor's Personal Guard of Knights, including their leader, his Cousin. The plan of the Knights was literally to fight off over a dozen sith and all soldiers present, and escape.And, with Krayt surrounded, the four of them lasted maybe, maybe three seconds. That's some Palpatine-stuff right there.
Let me also point out that Krayt fought with Abeloth between shadows.
One's power between shadows is purely based on force ability, and Krayt was quite strong in that fight.
Krayt learned some amazing force abilities, no doubt about it. However, the only force powers I could see him negatively affecting Dooku with in a battle are Force Drain and Shatterpoint-- but like I said, those abilities are extremely circumstantial, and certainly do not equate to auto-wins.
And, y'know, force illusion, the one where if it works the target stands there helplessly.
With Dark Transfer all he has to do is grab someone and they are dead. It's how he killed Cade, and I wouldn't call that too circumstantial.
And shatterpoint, shatterpoint lets a user see weaknesses in combat in general, the point where you strike to break someone's guard, the wound you make to cause your opponent to lose footing, etc.. Give a saber user shatterpoint and their win percentage purely with sabers, no force abilities, will go up.
The IK's really did nothing of note that I recall, and the best thing Nihl ever did was kill a *featless* descendant of Skywalker. Impressive to be sure, but Dooku has battled Yoda nigh-evenly. Next to that, Talon and Nihl are less than nothing.
Oh sure, and taking on large numbers of Sith or Jedi at once count for nothing, huh?
Don't forget Nihl also took Wolf Sazen's arm, and Wolf Sazen is *far* from featless.
We've seen unnamed Sith kill Jedi masters and then attack Sazen with numerical advantage and be quickly killed, the same Sazen who's weaker than Nihl.
There's been something like a dozen battles with the main Imperial Knights/Krayt's Hands/Shado and Sazen, either with each other, which established them as close, or against groups of jedi, masters, sith, and so on.
I mean, there's only so much you can see someone be attacked by multiple force users in groups- force users who themselves have often been seen killing other force users- and solidly defeat them while outnumbered, sometimes drastically outnumbered, before you have to admit, yea, they're strong.
Lotta words. How do Morne's feats compare to anyone mentioned?
She put up a better fight against Vader- before she learned to tap into the talisman- than a good number of Clone Wars masters ever did.
Palpatine-stuff? Now you're going a bit overboard.
I cannot think of any fight aside from Palpatine where masters fall so fast, and he was in a disadvantaged position.
Afaik, the IK's don't even have feats to put them near Ventress' or Grievous' skill level(both of whom Dooku has schooled regularly, btw) let alone Palpatine's level...
Personally I rate that as anti-Legacy bias.
I just mentioned a time when an Imperial Knight killed 6 Sith at once- not sequentially, being attacked as a group- after previously having killed some other Sith. Ventress has never done the like, and Grievous only did that sort of thing in the original cartoon (and even then, by splitting up the targets and facing them individual).
If you don't know anything to put them above Ventress, it is purely because you haven't been paying attention.
I mean, here we have Krayt, who walks over pretty much all opposition, and we have about a half-dozen people who find taking down a half-dozen Jedi or Sith to be a good warmup, who are way below him, and even below Cade who is clearly below him.
He's got much better force powers than Dooku and nothing about his saber record indicates he is anything but top tier.
Originally posted by Q99Tbh, this is a LOT of overhype. I read the Legacy comics. ALL of them. In fact, I just skimmed through many of the pertinent issues just to verify that I am correct. No single IK has feats which suggest they could defeat the likes of Ventress/Grievous(of whom were VASTLY inferior to Dooku) for a majority-- arguing otherwise demonstrates nothing but sheer bias on your end... And as if that's not enough, you then equate Krayt slaying a few IK's to "Palpatine-stuff"? Doubleyou.Oh.Doubleyou=WOW.
Let me also point out that Krayt fought with Abeloth between shadows.One's power between shadows is purely based on force ability, and Krayt was quite strong in that fight.
And, y'know, force illusion, the one where if it works the target stands there helplessly.
With Dark Transfer all he has to do is grab someone and they are dead. It's how he killed Cade, and I wouldn't call that too circumstantial.
And shatterpoint, shatterpoint lets a user see weaknesses in combat in general, the point where you strike to break someone's guard, the wound you make to cause your opponent to lose footing, etc.. Give a saber user shatterpoint and their win percentage purely with sabers, no force abilities, will go up.
Oh sure, and taking on large numbers of Sith or Jedi at once count for nothing, huh?
Don't forget Nihl also took Wolf Sazen's arm, and Wolf Sazen is *far* from featless.
We've seen unnamed Sith kill Jedi masters and then attack Sazen with numerical advantage and be quickly killed, the same Sazen who's weaker than Nihl.
There's been something like a dozen battles with the main Imperial Knights/Krayt's Hands/Shado and Sazen, either with each other, which established them as close, or against groups of jedi, masters, sith, and so on.
I mean, there's only so much you can see someone be attacked by multiple force users in groups- force users who themselves have often been seen killing other force users- and solidly defeat them while outnumbered, sometimes drastically outnumbered, before you have to admit, yea, they're strong.
She put up a better fight against Vader- before she learned to tap into the talisman- than a good number of Clone Wars masters ever did.
I cannot think of any fight aside from Palpatine where masters fall so fast, and he was in a disadvantaged position.
Personally I rate that as anti-Legacy bias.
I just mentioned a time when an Imperial Knight killed 6 Sith at once- not sequentially, being attacked as a group- after previously having killed some other Sith. Ventress has never done the like, and Grievous only did that sort of thing in the original cartoon (and even then, by splitting up the targets and facing them individual).
If you don't know anything to put them above Ventress, it is purely because you haven't been paying attention.
I mean, here we have Krayt, who walks over pretty much all opposition, and we have about a half-dozen people who find taking down a half-dozen Jedi or Sith to be a good warmup, who are way below him, and even below Cade who is clearly below him.
He's got much better force powers than Dooku and nothing about his saber record indicates he is anything but top tier.
Again: It takes a Yoda-level duelist to compete with Dooku. Hell, even a BLINDED Dooku can tool Asajj+2 Nightsisters simultaneously. If I wanted to get silly, I could call that "Palpatine-stuff" as well, but I'm not quite as bold. Point: Krayt has done absolutely NOTHING indicative of being able to defeat Dooku in a duel. Contend? Sure. Beat? No. When he can match a Yoda-level sabermaster, let me know. 🙂
Originally posted by Vensai
I recall Krayt was Luke's backup during the fight. And Luke had already taken on Abeloth alone.
Or Luke could be considered Krayt's backup. They both did vital stuff.
Krayt did the force drain and shoved his hand into her chest. Luke held her for Krayt to do damage to.
Luke was the debuffer while Krayt was the DPS.
Originally posted by Galan007
Tbh, this is a LOT of overhype. I read the Legacy comics. ALL of them. In fact, I just skimmed through many of the pertinent issues just to verify that I am correct. No single IK has feats which suggest they could defeat the likes of Ventress/Grievous(of whom were VASTLY inferior to Dooku) for a majority-- arguing otherwise demonstrates nothing but sheer bias on your end...
Oh please. Draco has more kills and force user fights than Ventress, and tell me if Ventress ever takes on a half-dozen Jedi at once.
Treis Sinde has better force powers while we're at it.
You read the Legacy comic, but I think you kinda glossed over things because they aren't time-consuming duels like in the shows. There were a lot of fights where Draco and Ganner, or Sazen and Shado, or Cade, got significant numbers of kills.
It's easy to forget because many of the fights were inconclusive ones between each other and the two Hands, but every time they weren't fighting one of the main characters, they left trails of defeated foes.
Remember, unlike the Clone Wars cartoon, the majority of opponents they fought were Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights, not droids and clones. Killing 6 Sith on your own is impressive.
And as if that's not enough, you then equate Krayt slaying a few IK's to "Palpatine-stuff"?
Personal bodyguard including at least one master, group expected to fight a dozen sith and have a good chance to escape, surrounded, 3-seconds...
The impressive part was not simply the defeating them, but the speed with which it was done which is highly unusual and really not seen often at all against foes of that level.
Again: It takes a Yoda-level duelist to compete with Dooku.
Anakin could manage, and even A'Sharad was, bare minimum, close to that level.
Hell, even a BLINDED Dooku can tool Asajj+2 Nightsisters simultaneously. If I wanted to get silly, I could call that "Palpatine-stuff" as well, but I'm not quite as bold.
Yea, that was a fight that took minutes, while if you had tossed a can in the air at the start of the Throne Room fight it'd be over before the can landed.
Point: Krayt has done absolutely NOTHING indicative of being able to defeat Dooku in a duel. Contend? Sure. Beat? No. When he can match a Yoda-level sabermaster, let me know.
He's certainly shown nothing that indicates he's any weaker in sabers, and he's shown a lot more in the force.
In his era he is literally undefeated in sabers and only one person was able to fight on an even level, and the major badasses of the era were overwhelmed by him. You seem to be assuming he's weaker based on, well, nothing.
Luke has beaten the Emperor even when he wasn't at his peak (he had Leia's help, but Palpatine was stronger than in ROTS). He's the strongest one here. Palpatine was the strongest of a lineage of sith lords starting with Bane. Since Yoda stalemated Sidious, the grand master ought to be able to deal with Darth Bane. Team 1 is just outclassed. Darth Krayt is powerful but he is facing two of the strongest jedi in history.
Originally posted by Vensai
Luke has beaten the Emperor even when he wasn't at his peak (he had Leia's help, but Palpatine was stronger than in ROTS). He's the strongest one here. Palpatine was the strongest of a lineage of sith lords starting with Bane. Since Yoda stalemated Sidious, the grand master ought to be able to deal with Darth Bane. Team 1 is just outclassed. Darth Krayt is powerful but he is facing two of the strongest jedi in history.
Yep. It's like,
"Haha, we may hate each other's Sith organizations, but we're still two of the most powerful sith around! What Jedi think they can challenge us?"
Door opens, Luke and Yoda step out.
Krayt: "Crap."
Bane: "What? I don't know these punks, I'm from the past. Should I be worried?"
*Sith Gank'ed*
Originally posted by Q99Who did Draco beat that was on par with Ventress or Grievous in sabers? Serious question, as I may have missed something.
Oh please. Draco has more kills and force user fights than Ventress, and tell me if Ventress ever takes on a half-dozen Jedi at once.
Originally posted by Q99Kills against people of consequence are what matters. Killing a bunch of featless wonders who were dubbed Sith is, imo, meaningless as it pertains to Dooku-- a guy who has matched Yoda on a few occasions, has been stated as one of 2 duelists capable of out-sparring Mace, has beaten Kenobi multiple times, regularly trains with/owns Grievous, has beaten Asajj and co. while blind, etc. etc.)
You read the Legacy comic, but I think you kinda glossed over things because they aren't time-consuming duels like in the shows. There were a lot of fights where Draco and Ganner, or Sazen and Shado, or Cade, got significant numbers of kills.It's easy to forget because many of the fights were inconclusive ones between each other and the two Hands, but every time they weren't fighting one of the main characters, they left trails of defeated foes.
Remember, unlike the Clone Wars cartoon, the majority of opponents they fought were Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights, not droids and clones. Killing 6 Sith on your own is impressive.
And I'm not saying the feat isn't impressive, I just don't think it is impressive enough to put someone on the level you're claiming.
Originally posted by Q99You seem to be under the impression that title equates to power..? Personally, I could care less about titles like "master"-- I want to know what these characters have done to warrant some of your hyped claims..?
Personal bodyguard including at least one master, group expected to fight a dozen sith and have a good chance to escape, surrounded, 3-seconds...The impressive part was not simply the defeating them, but the speed with which it was done which is highly unusual and really not seen often at all against foes of that level.
Originally posted by Q99Zonakin managed to kill Dooku. Mustafar Anakin/Vader was nearly killed by Kenobi. Unless you believe the latter 'incarnation' of Anakin was still Yoda-level, then he certainly wouldn't have been able to defeat Dooku. Either way, we know what level of power/swordsmanship is required to match and defeat Dooku-- and that is Yoda-level+. Krayt=/=Yoda.
Anakin could manage, and even A'Sharad was, bare minimum, close to that level.
A'Sharad did well against Kenobi, but was ultimately owned-- something Kenobi never came close to doing to Dooku. Like I said: using Kenobi as a gauge isn't helping your case.
Originally posted by Q99Yea, Dooku was BLIND at the time-- that's the impressive part.
Yea, that was a fight that took minutes, while if you had tossed a can in the air at the start of the Throne Room fight it'd be over before the can landed.
Originally posted by Q99He's got feats to place him above Dooku in the force, but certainly not enough to put him on par with Dooku in sabers. Again: Krayt=/=Yoda.
He's certainly shown nothing that indicates he's any weaker in sabers, and he's shown a lot more in the force.
Originally posted by Q99'In his era' are the key words here. Again, I'm not saying that Krayt can't put up a fight. He definitely can. I've just yet to see anything that makes me think he can beat Dooku in a duel. Tbh, I'm not even convinced that Krayt can beat Dooku in an all-out scenario. /shrug
In his era he is literally undefeated in sabers and only one person was able to fight on an even level, and the major badasses of the era were overwhelmed by him. You seem to be assuming he's weaker based on, well, nothing.
Originally posted by Q99
Yep. It's like,
"Haha, we may hate each other's Sith organizations, but we're still two of the most powerful sith around! What Jedi think they can challenge us?"Door opens, Luke and Yoda step out.
Krayt: "Crap."
Bane: "What? I don't know these punks, I'm from the past. Should I be worried?"
*Sith Gank'ed*
Pretty much how this would go down. 😆
Who did Draco beat that was on par with Ventress or Grievous in sabers? Serious question, as I may have missed something.
It's more, "Oh, Ventress is very proud of her 11 Jedi kills? Draco killed 9 Sith in one day, the last six of which were without anyone watching his back."
Ventresses' wins are almost entirely against generic Jedi, and Draco does way better in that area, taking on groups and all that.
And he does fight on the same level as the likes of Nihl, Talon, Shado, and such. Past debates have the consensus put Talon above TPM Maul, let alone Ventress.
You seem to be under the impression that title equates to power..? Personally, I could care less about titles like "master"-- I want to know what these characters have done to warrant some of your hyped claims..?
None of the Imperial Knights we've seen were weak, and titles may not be impressive, but family names and the opinions of others can still say something about strength- he was a Fel, i.e. a descendant of Jaina solo. His cousin Roan Fel was quite strong, and Roan felt Mohrgan + 3 Knights had a chance fighting their way out against a significantly greater number of Sith. Wrongly, but Roan is not the type who'd mistake weaklings without skill for otherwise.
A'Sharad did well against Kenobi, but was ultimately owned-- something Kenobi never came close to doing to Dooku. Like I said: using Kenobi as a gauge isn't helping your case.
Purely talking the sabers end here. A'Sharad was weak in force defense but, if anything, had the edge in sabers.
Krayt is, like, a dozen times stronger in the force than A'Sharad, and more experienced to a great degree.
Dooku and Kenobi weren't that far apart in sabers. If A'Sharad was Kenobi level in sabers alone, then it is an incredibly small leap to put Krayt at at least Dooku level, what with him learning sith techniques on top of his old Jedi ones, learning shatterpoints, and simply becoming stronger in the force which, as we know, affects one's speed and physical power.
If A'Sharad simply had decades of training and experience, getting to Dooku's saber level would not be even slightly surprising. Decades of training and experience and a massive power-up including multiple abilities that directly help saber fighting...? You don't even have to make high-end assumptions.
'In his era' are the key words here.
Indeed; I don't think there's anything that indicates the Legacy era is weaker than other eras, and the characters we've seen have had a lot of reason to get very good in sabers, facing lots of foes, and in the few era-crossovers we've seen (Andeddu, Morne, Abeloth) Legacy stacks up just fine.
There's precisely zero to indicate that Legacy lags behind other eras, and plenty to indicate they are quite capable of holding their own. They're only a few generations removed from several of the greatest Jedi ever, after all.
Originally posted by Q99
Past debates have the consensus put Talon above TPM Maul, let alone Ventress.
So? Past debates have the consensus that Ragnos could destroy Sidious in a duel it doesn't make it true.
Originally posted by Q99
Purely talking the sabers end here. A'Sharad was weak in force defense but, if anything, had the edge in sabers.
Which is why Obi-Wan cut off his arm right?
And, as I've posted several times before, the artist confirmed that Obi-Wan cut the arm off.
http://www.comicscommunity.com/boards/janduursema/?read=9783&expand=0
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku>Krayt (Sabers)
Krayt>Dooku (Force)
I have a hard time believing that Krayt could treat Obi-Wan Kenobi the way Dooku did.
Dooku seems to be Krayt's superior. By how much, probably not much at all. But against people of Mace and Dooku's calibur, stars help him Yoda, he'd go down hard.