Originally posted by Nephthys
It disappoints me to see that The Coward (thats my new nickname for Tempest) has decided to flee from my challenge rather than actually attempt to spin some bullshit to save face. I could have done with a laugh.
I see that mocking Bane has, predictably, driven you to rage. What challenge?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Again you miss my point. I did not say that he was necessarily unable, only that he has not, therefore we cannot say that he is able.
We can reasonably infer that he is able to do so: he's immobilized the likes of Caedus and UnuThul via the Force when sufficiently motivated.
Your theory relies entirely on unreasonable and dangerous leaps in logic, that Luke is somehow impaired in Force use or that his subscribed morality imposes insurmountable limitations on his abilities. Neither of which is actually the case.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane has plenty of feats of pwning someone with the Force.
Other than an unknown like WelkQordis?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke, not so much. Other than an unknown like Welk I suppose. And his feats aside from that not enough to say that he could pimpslap a foe like Bane around.
The problem is that bereft of orbalisks or Force nexuses, Bane is really nothing special in the Force.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No. he isn't.
I'm sure you'll come to terms with Bane's impotence eventually.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As I recall, Luke overpowered neither Unuthul or Abeloth with the Force. Unuthul has little in the way of impressive showings beyond 'empowered by billions!' which as Vitiate absorbing 8,000 Sith Lords showed does not necessarily mean that their power is literally multiplied.
Raynar's eyes grew very dark around the edges, and suddenly Luke could see nothing else. The murky presence began to reach into his mind, trying to push its way inside his thoughts to read his intentions. Luke was astonished by its power and had to reach deeply into the Force to bolster his own strength. Though the probe was hardly subtle or refined, it felt as though it were being driven by a thousand Raynars, and he feared for a moment that in his surprise he would be overwhelmed by its sheer might.
Then he felt Mara pouring her own strength into him, and Saba and even Leia. Together they pushed the dusky hand back. Luke found himself looking once again into the blue, lidless eyes of their host, and he finally began to comprehend just how difficult it was going to be to reach Raynar Thul.
"Possibly," Mara allowed. Luke felt her alarm growing as clearly as his own; it was growing all too obvious that Unu - Raynar's nest-was the source of what the Chiss were calling the Will. "But this central Will would have to be magnitudes stronger than the wills of the individual nests."
"And it could be," Luke said, recalling how powerful Raynar had grown in the Force. "A gifted Joiner might be able to draw on the Force potential of his entire nest."
"I thought you said that the Killiks aren't Force-sensitive," Formbi said.
"He did," Mara answered. "Force-sensitive means you have the ability to tap into the Force.
Raynar can draw upon the Force potential of the entire colony and Luke's [likely?] hyperbolic thoughts attribute UnuThul with the power of a thousand Raynars.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And Abeloth he had help in all? of their fights?
He was also impeded in at least two via the Sith and still emerged triumphant.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also can I get some info on Luke dismantling Vader's castle? IIRC he did it brick by brick, which while impressive is more a feat of stamina that actual power.
He sat down on the sand, cross-legged and straight-backed, and brought his hands together in his lap, fingertip to fingertip. Concentrating on a picture in his mind, Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him. With eyes that looked inward, he found what he was seeking, like flaws in a near-perfect crystal. He extended his will.
The sand around him stirred. The rocks shuddered, shifted, then began to rise from the sea and the sand as though sifted from them by an invisible screen.
Swirling through the air as they sought their place, the stones took shape as broken wall and shattered foundation, as arch and gate and dome-the ruins of Darth Vader's fortress retreat. It hung in the air around and above Luke as it had once stood atop the cliff, a dark-faced and forbidding edifice.
There was no record in Imperial City's files to say whether his father had ever occupied the fortress, though it had clearly been built for him in accord with his instructions. It had been empty when it was destroyed by a B-wing's blasters, in the days after the New Republic reclaimed Coruscant.
Was this where Vader plotted his conquests in the Emperor's service?
Was this where he had come to rejuvenate after a battle? Had there been celebrations here, self-indulgent pleasures or cruelties? Luke listened for the echoes of the old evils, and could not be certain.
But that did not matter to his plans. As he had redeemed and reclaimed his father, he would redeem and reclaim his father's house.
Now the stones swirled again in the air, joined by others plucked from the sea and stripped from the face of the cliff. Now broken edge fused against broken edge, and the dark faces of the rock lightened as their mineral structure was reshuffled. Now heavy rock walls and floors thinned to an airy elegance as if they were clay in a potter's press.
Now a tower stretched skyward until it rose above the edge of the cliff.
He had taken the broken pieces of his father's fortress retreat and tried to remake them into something that could redeem them from their history. But he saw now that all he had managed to build was a prison, and that he had been fortunate to escape it.
Extending his hands and his will, Luke found the points of greatest stress within the structure and pressed upon them, found the points of greatest fragility and sundered them. With a roar that momentarily rivaled the wind, the hermitage collapsed in on itself, crushing the fighter still sealed within it.
But that was not enough to satisfy Luke, not enough to forever erase the temptation. One after another, he raised the pieces of the ruined hermitage, the broken ship, up out of the sand and into the air, crumbling them with the force of his thoughts, until it was a dense, swirling cloud of pebble-sized fragments and metal bits.
Then, with a final, explosive effort of will, he hurled the cloud of debris far out beyond the breakers, where it rained down on the churning water and vanished from sight.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Do it. I ****ing double dare you bro. It'll be a laugh to see how you can possibly twist something to do with them into a G-canon clash.
We know from the ROTS script that only Jedi can attain life after death, so Nihilus doesn't exist. The same script says that the ability to cheat death is a power only attained by Plagueis, meaning Vitiate is out. And, as the final nail in the coffin, Palpatine declares that the Republic has stood for only a thousand years (and Ki-Adi-Mundi claims the Sith have been extinct in that time). The events of KotOR, KotOR II, and TOR simply could not have occurred.
Likewise, the feats of all these Sith contradict the films and, per The Essential Reader's Companion pg 75, "As always, a story line direct from George Lucas trumps publishing continuity."
😬
Originally posted by The_Tempest
We can reasonably infer that he is able to do so: he's immobilized the likes of Caedus and UnuThul via the Force when sufficiently motivated.Your theory relies entirely on unreasonable and dangerous leaps in logic, that Luke is somehow impaired in Force use or that his subscribed morality imposes insurmountable limitations on his abilities. Neither of which is actually the case.
Caedus was taken by surprise. In their actual duel Luke amazingly enough did not pin him to the floor and rest his balls on his face like you think he could have. Plus Bane is superior to Caedus. And Luke didn't overpower Unuthul.
If it is not then kindly direct me to evidence that Luke can offensively manhandle Bane. Otherwise shut ya mouth.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Other than an unknown likeWelkQordis?
Given that Qordis was the headmaster of the academy where only the strongest Sith were trained its pretty freaking obvious that he was legitimately powerful. And yes, Bane overpowered Raskta and Farfalla as well.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is that bereft of orbalisks or Force nexuses, Bane is really nothing special in the Force.
Also this is peak Bane. Meaning he either has the orbalisks or is advanced enough that he doesn't need them.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Raynar's eyes grew very dark around the edges, and suddenly Luke could see nothing else. The murky presence began to reach into his mind, trying to push its way inside his thoughts to read his intentions. Luke was astonished by its power and had to reach deeply into the Force to bolster his own strength. Though the probe was hardly subtle or refined, it felt as though it were being driven by a thousand Raynars, and he feared for a moment that in his surprise he would be overwhelmed by its sheer might.
Then he felt Mara pouring her own strength into him, and Saba and even Leia. Together they pushed the dusky hand back. Luke found himself looking once again into the blue, lidless eyes of their host, and he finally began to comprehend just how difficult it was going to be to reach Raynar Thul."Possibly," Mara allowed. Luke felt her alarm growing as clearly as his own; it was growing all too obvious that Unu - Raynar's nest-was the source of what the Chiss were calling the Will. "But this central Will would have to be magnitudes stronger than the wills of the individual nests."
"And it could be," Luke said, recalling how powerful Raynar had grown in the Force. "A gifted Joiner might be able to draw on the Force potential of his entire nest."
"I thought you said that the Killiks aren't Force-sensitive," Formbi said.
"He did," Mara answered. "Force-sensitive means you have the ability to tap into the Force.Raynar can draw upon the Force potential of the entire colony and Luke's [likely?] hyperbolic thoughts attribute UnuThul with the power of a thousand Raynars.
Gee, that quote of Unuthul almost overwhelming Luke and Luke needing 3 other Jedi to help push him back sure does convince me that Luke is vastly superior to him.
And yeah its clearly hyperbolic and what happens at the end of that second quote? Mara acknowledges that Kiliks aren't Force-sensitive. But as I recall theres more too it than that because Unuthul was clearly tapping into something.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He was also impeded in at least two via the Sith and still emerged triumphant.
Then question: Can Luke beat Abeloth in a straight fight?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He sat down on the sand, cross-legged and straight-backed, and brought his hands together in his lap, fingertip to fingertip. Concentrating on a picture in his mind, Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him. With eyes that looked inward, he found what he was seeking, like flaws in a near-perfect crystal. He extended his will.
The sand around him stirred. The rocks shuddered, shifted, then began to rise from the sea and the sand as though sifted from them by an invisible screen.
Swirling through the air as they sought their place, the stones took shape as broken wall and shattered foundation, as arch and gate and dome-the ruins of Darth Vader's fortress retreat. It hung in the air around and above Luke as it had once stood atop the cliff, a dark-faced and forbidding edifice.
There was no record in Imperial City's files to say whether his father had ever occupied the fortress, though it had clearly been built for him in accord with his instructions. It had been empty when it was destroyed by a B-wing's blasters, in the days after the New Republic reclaimed Coruscant.
Was this where Vader plotted his conquests in the Emperor's service?
Was this where he had come to rejuvenate after a battle? Had there been celebrations here, self-indulgent pleasures or cruelties? Luke listened for the echoes of the old evils, and could not be certain.
But that did not matter to his plans. As he had redeemed and reclaimed his father, he would redeem and reclaim his father's house.
Now the stones swirled again in the air, joined by others plucked from the sea and stripped from the face of the cliff. Now broken edge fused against broken edge, and the dark faces of the rock lightened as their mineral structure was reshuffled. Now heavy rock walls and floors thinned to an airy elegance as if they were clay in a potter's press.
Now a tower stretched skyward until it rose above the edge of the cliff.He had taken the broken pieces of his father's fortress retreat and tried to remake them into something that could redeem them from their history. But he saw now that all he had managed to build was a prison, and that he had been fortunate to escape it.
Extending his hands and his will, Luke found the points of greatest stress within the structure and pressed upon them, found the points of greatest fragility and sundered them. With a roar that momentarily rivaled the wind, the hermitage collapsed in on itself, crushing the fighter still sealed within it.
But that was not enough to satisfy Luke, not enough to forever erase the temptation. One after another, he raised the pieces of the ruined hermitage, the broken ship, up out of the sand and into the air, crumbling them with the force of his thoughts, until it was a dense, swirling cloud of pebble-sized fragments and metal bits.
Then, with a final, explosive effort of will, he hurled the cloud of debris far out beyond the breakers, where it rained down on the churning water and vanished from sight.
As I thought, theres no indication of time and Luke seems to be drawing upon a nexus or something outside of his own power 'Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him.' And it required him to meditate to do it. It's not replicatable in a forum fight. It is impressive, but not enough to say that Luke could pwn Bane.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
We know from the ROTS script that only Jedi can attain life after death, so Nihilus doesn't exist. The same script says that the ability to cheat death is a power only attained by Plagueis, meaning Vitiate is out. And, as the final nail in the coffin, Palpatine declares that the Republic has stood for only a thousand years (and Ki-Adi-Mundi claims the Sith have been extinct in that time). The events of KotOR, KotOR II, and TOR simply could not have occurred.Likewise, the feats of all these Sith contradict the films and, per The Essential Reader's Companion pg 75, "As always, a story line direct from George Lucas trumps publishing continuity."
😬
Ahahahahaha. Oh man, this was definitely worth it. Let us count the ways:
1. No, the script does not say that. If you think it does, point out where it says that. Either way it is completely irrelevent as Nihilus was not dead. He is not a Sith Spirit, he is a consciousness in a suit of armor.
2. LOL. No, Palpatine says that. Palpatine is a ****ing liar for one thing and has good cause to want to make Anakin think that theres only one way to save Padme. For a second thing, Vitiate again never died. And the context is wrong since Palpatine is discussing saving others from death, not achieving immortality or surviving past death, making it again irrelevent. Theres no contradiction considering they are completely different abilities.
3. Again Palpatine is a fallible guy who could have misspoke. In ANH Kenobi says that the Republic is 1000 generations old, which obviously is longer than 1000 years. Palpatine also mentions that 'once more the Sith will rule the galaxy', indicating that TOR, KOTOR etc did happen as examples of Sith Rule over portions of the galaxy.
Lol, their feats contradict nothing. The point on G-canon is correct, its just too bad that Palpatines opinions and words aren't infallible facts though. 😉
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You demanded concession and failure tears. I gave you neither, but a response that relegates two of your favorite characters to nonexistence and reduces the third to a glorified chump.You, madam, are clearly a liar.
You cannot defeat me. excellent
No, you gave me a laugh. Which I suppose it pittance enough. You may live.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I have a hard time believing that Krayt could treat Obi-Wan Kenobi the way Dooku did.
Dooku seems to be Krayt's superior. By how much, probably not much at all. But against people of Mace and Dooku's calibur, stars help him Yoda, he'd go down hard.
Krayt's TK seems to rival Dooku's. Cade, in a state of rage, was able to throw a ship, and Krayt seemed to have more than an edge in TK during their fight, and even shattered stone structures with TK attacks.
Though, IMO, Dooku is the better saber duelist.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Krayt's TK seems to rival Dooku's. Cade, in a state of rage, was able to throw a ship, and Krayt seemed to have the edge in TK during their fight, and even shattered stone structures with TK attacks.Though, IMO, Dooku is the better saber duelist.
Dooku can destroy rock with just his lightning. He has TKed plenty impressive objects like when he brought down a pillar before fighting Windu and Kenobi.
Originally posted by Q99
And he does fight on the same level as the likes of Nihl, Talon, Shado, and such. Past debates have the consensus put Talon above TPM Maul, let alone Ventress.
Talon is above Maul and Ventress, based on what? Lightning? Ventress has better TK feats than Talon, as far as I know.
Originally posted by Q99
Dooku and Kenobi weren't that far apart in sabers.
Yes, they are far apart in sabers. Ventress has shown to be Kenobi's equal in saber combat. She has either stalemated him, owned him, or has been barely bested by him. However, her and two other nightsisters were unable to beat a blind Dooku.
Originally posted by Q99Based on what? The only 'one-up' Talon had on Maul was FL-- so what? Maul tanked a Nightsister's force lightning without skipping a beat.
Past debates have the consensus put Talon above TPM Maul, let alone Ventress.
Additionally, I'm talking about saber feats that put her or Nihl or the IK's on par with Ventress or Grievous. She/they has/have none.
Originally posted by Q99Again, I'm looking for FEATS. I could care less about title and/or lineage and/or unsubstantiated speechification.
None of the Imperial Knights we've seen were weak, and titles may not be impressive, but family names and the opinions of others can still say something about strength- he was a Fel, i.e. a descendant of Jaina solo. His cousin Roan Fel was quite strong, and Roan felt Mohrgan + 3 Knights had a chance fighting their way out against a significantly greater number of Sith. Wrongly, but Roan is not the type who'd mistake weaklings without skill for otherwise.
Originally posted by Q99They were worlds apart in sabers. Every single time they battled, Dooku tooled Kenobi without breaking a sweat-- whereas A'Sharad got his ass handed to him by Kenobi.
Dooku and Kenobi weren't that far apart in sabers.
Originally posted by Q99You want me to post the plethora of quotes pertaining to Dooku's ability to massively amp his stats with the force?
If A'Sharad was Kenobi level in sabers alone, then it is an incredibly small leap to put Krayt at at least Dooku level, what with him learning sith techniques on top of his old Jedi ones, learning shatterpoints, and simply becoming stronger in the force which, as we know, affects one's speed and physical power.
Additionally, you're acting like the ability to sense shatterpoints equates to an auto-win. It doesn't. Shatterpoints are extremely circumstantial and pop up on a case-by-case basis. Who's to say that Dooku would even have a shatterpoint to exploit? C'mon, the overhype of Krayt here is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Q99You do have to make assumptions, though... And [unsubstantiated] assumptions are entirely what your stance hinges on.
If A'Sharad simply had decades of training and experience, getting to Dooku's saber level would not be even slightly surprising. Decades of training and experience and a massive power-up including multiple abilities that directly help saber fighting...? You don't even have to make high-end assumptions.
Once more: show me PROOF that Krayt can hang with a confirmed Yoda-level swordsman in a duel, like Dooku has done, and I'll admit he is at least on par with Dooku. I'm waiting.
Originally posted by Q99Wait, what? Aside from your personal assumptions, there is nothing which indicates that Krayt is on par with--much less greater than--Dooku as a swordsman. Nothing.
There's precisely zero to indicate that Legacy lags behind other eras, and plenty to indicate they are quite capable of holding their own. They're only a few generations removed from several of the greatest Jedi ever, after all.
Nephthys
Caedus was taken by surprise.
And if it were a knockout move, that might matter. Instead, Caedus was still conscious and in command of all his powers... and couldn't overcome Luke's effortless hold.
Nephthys
In their actual duel Luke amazingly enough did not pin him to the floor and rest his balls on his face like you think he could have.
Kinky. But Luke muses that his brawl with Caedus "was supposed to hurt," it clearly wasn't meant to be a quick, painless affair.
Nephthys
Plus Bane is superior to Caedus.
You're welcome to prove it, but you'll fail miserably, my son. Caedus doesn't need orbalisks or dark side nexuses to do cool shit, he's a real man.
Nephthys
And Luke didn't overpower Unuthul.
He sure did, right after resisting UnuThul's best attempt to ragdoll him, he amputated Raynar's arm and pinned him to a wall with the Force. Consult the source material, my son.
Nephthys
If it is not then kindly direct me to evidence that Luke can offensively manhandle Bane. Otherwise shut ya mouth.
I already presented you with evidence, my son. It's not my fault that your toothpick of a penis is engorged at the mention of Bane's name, robbing you of the blood supply needed to process my irrefutable argument.
Nephthys
Also this is peak Bane. Meaning he either has the orbalisks or is advanced enough that he doesn't need them.
Orbalisks weren't specified and peak!Bane is woefully ill-equipped to take on Luke. 😬
Nephthys
Gee, that quote of Unuthul almost overwhelming Luke and Luke needing 3 other Jedi to help push him back sure does convince me that Luke is vastly superior to him.
The text notes that Luke was taken by surprise, but I am not surprised that you only make note of such things when it favors Bane.
Nephthys
And yeah its clearly hyperbolic and what happens at the end of that second quote? Mara acknowledges that Kiliks aren't Force-sensitive. But as I recall theres more too it than that because Unuthul was clearly tapping into something.
No one claimed that they were Force-sensitive. Force potential, as the passage later notes, is another term for life energy. It provides a tremendous boost, as noted by Jacen and Mara at various points.
Nephthys
Then question: Can Luke beat Abeloth in a straight fight?
He shouldn't, no. But then Vol, who "had much the power of Skywalker" pretty much did.
Nephthys
As I thought, theres no indication of time and Luke seems to be drawing upon a nexus or something outside of his own power 'Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him.'
I produce a quote that says a world bristles with [dark side] energy and it's not a nexus, but Luke draws on the Force beneath him and it's magically a nexus.
Oh you.
Anyway, you should probably take a gander at a little film called The Empire Strikes Back where this green guy called Yoda mentions how the Force is present in the environment.
Nephthys
And it required him to meditate to do it. It's not replicatable in a forum fight. It is impressive, but not enough to say that Luke could pwn Bane.
I never said it could be replicated in the heat of combat. But Bane is, on his best day, a mediocre warrior. Luke should have no problem batting him around if he dismantled a castle.
Nephthys
Ahahahahaha. Oh man, this was definitely worth it. Let us count the ways:1. No, the script does not say that. If you think it does, point out where it says that. Either way it is completely irrelevent as Nihilus was not dead. He is not a Sith Spirit, he is a consciousness in a suit of armor.
ROTS script
QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.YODA: Eternal consciousness.
QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.
ROTS scriot
YODA: (continuing) Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you.OBI-WAN: Training??
YODA: An old friend has learned the path to immortality.
OBI-WAN: Who?
YODA: One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force to train me . . . your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.
OBI-WAN: Qui-Gon? But, how could he accomplish this?
YODA: The secret of the Ancient Order of the Whills, he studied. How to commune with him. I will teach you.
ROTS novel
"Infinite knowledge..." Yoda shook his head. "Infinite time,
does that require."
With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain
consciousness. You can join your light to it forever. Perhaps, in time,
even your physical self.
Yoda did not move. "Eternal life..."
The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it
comes only by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes
through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness.
Nephthys
2. LOL. No, Palpatine says that. Palpatine is a ****ing liar for one thing and has good cause to want to make Anakin think that theres only one way to save Padme. For a second thing, Vitiate again never died. And the context is wrong since Palpatine is discussing saving others from death, not achieving immortality or surviving past death, making it again irrelevent. Theres no contradiction considering they are completely different abilities.
Palpatine specifically says "the ability to cheat death." Vitiate, too, was alleged to have possessed that power by his ability to make others immortal. This is a express and explicit violation of the films. It cannot stand. 😬
Nephthys
3. Again Palpatine is a fallible guy who could have misspoke. In ANH Kenobi says that the Republic is 1000 generations old, which obviously is longer than 1000 years.
So newer sources retcon older ones when it suits your argument, but not when it doesn't?
Nephthys
Palpatine also mentions that 'once more the Sith will rule the galaxy', indicating that TOR, KOTOR etc did happen as examples of Sith Rule over portions of the galaxy.
Because ruling a fraction of the galaxy means one ruled the galaxy itself. 👆
Nephthys
Lol, their feats contradict nothing. The point on G-canon is correct, its just too bad that Palpatines opinions and words aren't infallible facts though
Sorry, bro. George's vision is G-canon. Unless George specifically denotes where such feats are commensurate with his vision, they are a clear contradiction. 😬
Nephthys
No, you gave me a laugh. Which I suppose it pittance enough. You may live.
Your thrice lies shan't avail you. I accept your concession.
Originally posted by Galan007
Wait, what? Aside from your personal assumptions, there is nothing which indicates that Krayt is on par with--much less greater than--Dooku as a swordsman. Nothing.
My personal assumptions and his own track record and his numerous powerups... Kenobi was at most one tier down from Dooku, and A'Sharad was on that level.
Aside from your personal assumptions, there is nothing which indicates that Krayt isn't on par with--much less weaker than--Dooku as a swordsman. Nothing.