Originally posted by CountDooku22Mace made a few comments pertaining to Depa's swordsmanship-- I even referenced one of those statements earlier. However, what I'm saying is that her battle with Mace certainly doesn't equate to her having uber saber feats, because Mace purposefully held back. He did not want to fight her. He did not want to harm her. He definitely did not want to kill her. Heck, he even restrained himself from fully tapping into Vaapad. The following excerpts were all taken from Shatterpoint:
Hardly.I believe Mace implied that healthy or no, she had grown as deadly as him with Vapaad, and try as he might to at least defend - she was still able to stab him.
She screamed as she triggered her blade. And kept screaming as its green fire chewed a tunnel through Mace's guts and speared out his back. His hand seized hers instinctively, locking her blade against his body so that she could not kill him by slashing it free. His own blade ignited-But he could not strike her. Even now. Not here, so close he could kiss her instead; not while her scream spiraled up into a shriek; not while he had to look into her wide staring eyes and see no hate or rage but only stark agony.
---
The slashes never stopped. They would never stop. They flowed one into the next with liquid precision. This constant near-invisible weave of lethal energy is the ready-stance of Vaapad. "Depa," Mace said desperately. "I don't want to fight you. Depa, please."
---
Mace backpedaled, parrying frantically, absorbing the shock of her attacks with bent arms and a two-handed grip. He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child. Green flame struck through his guard, and only a frantic jerk of his head turned what would have been a brain-burning thrust into a line of char along his cheekbone. Still he did not strike back. "I will not kill you," he said. "Death is not the answer to your pain."
---
Through the trace of Force connection he had with Nick, Mace felt the young Korun collapse. Something broke inside his head, and all his own wounds crashed upon him. Every cut and bruise, every cracked bone and sprained joint, the man-bite on his shoulder and the hole through his guts: all of them blossomed into silent screams. His lightsaber went heavy, and his arms went slow. She burned a stripe across his chest, and he staggered. His fighting spirit wasn't destroyed. It wasn't even far away. He could feel where it had gone. He could reach out and touch it. It was waiting for him in the dark. He took one last look at the darkness that called to him-Darkness within mirroring darkness without-And turned away. He let his blade vanish. His arms dropped to his sides. Depa moved in for the kill. Mace backed away. She leaped for him, slashing, and he slipped aside. She pressed her attack and he retreated, over bodies and through blaster-riddled wreckage of console banks, until he came hard up against a console that still had power: indicator lights flashed like droid eyes in the gloom. The blade of green fire whirled up, poised, and struck. He let himself collapse.
Depa was good, don't get me wrong. She also knew Vaapad very well(per Mace.) But her fight with the aforementioned simply isn't a good way to gauge her saber skills due to Mace's self-imposed power-neutering-- of which was reinforced by the author multiple times.
Originally posted by Galan007
Mace made a few comments pertaining to Depa's swordsmanship-- I even referenced one of those statements above. However, what I'm saying is that her battle with Mace certainly doesn't equate to her having uber saber feats, because Mace purposefully held back. He did not want to fight her. He did not want to harm her. He definitely didn't want to kill her. Heck, he even restrained himself from fully tapping into Vaapad. The following passages were all takes from Shatterpoint:Depa was good, don't get me wrong. She also knew Vaapad very well(per Mace.) But her fight with the aforementioned simply isn't a good way to gauge her saber skills.
Mace backpedaled, parrying frantically, absorbing the shock of her attacks with bent arms and a two-handed grip. He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child.
Her power within Vapaad had climbed enough where she could match Mace's attributes with this power, as Mace had noticed.
It's enough to understand that she would wreck TPM Darth Maul with it, and beat TCW Maul in a very close match.
Originally posted by Galan007
"I don't want to fight you. Depa, please.""Still he did not strike back. "I will not kill you," he said. "Death is not the answer to your pain.""
Ignoring context, ftw!
Just because he doesn't want to fight her or kill her, doesn't mean he can't block and evade all of her Vapaad-fueled attacks, if it were in his ability.
Which it wasn't.
Which is my point.
He couldn't simply defend against her attacks, and Vapaad had given her the power to match his attributes.
Attributes that are considerably higher than TPM Maul's and somewhat higher than TCW Maul's.
Making this fight in Depa's favor.
Originally posted by CountDooku22...Because he wouldn't allow himself to embrace the darkness-- to embrace Vaapad. Essentially, he was defending against her attacks as well as he could without tapping into Vaapad, and without the will to harm her.
Just because he doesn't want to fight her or kill her, doesn't mean he can't block and evade all of her Vapid-fueled attacks, if it were in his ability.Which it wasn't.
"His fighting spirit wasn't destroyed. It wasn't even far away. He could feel where it had gone. He could reach out and touch it. It was waiting for him in the dark. He took one last look at the darkness that called to him-Darkness within mirroring darkness without-And turned away. He let his blade vanish. His arms dropped to his sides."
Context is key. Don't ignore it. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007
...Because he wouldn't allow himself to embrace the darkness-- to embrace Vaapad. Essentially, he was defending against her attacks as well as he could without tapping into Vaapad, and without the will to harm her.
You don't need the will to harm somebody, to defend adequately against their attacks.
Originally posted by Galan007
"His fighting spirit wasn't destroyed. It wasn't even far away. He could feel where it had gone. He could reach out and touch it. It was waiting for him in the dark. [b]He took one last look at the darkness that called to him-Darkness within mirroring darkness without-And turned away. He let his blade vanish. His arms dropped to his sides."Context is key. Don't ignore it. 🙂 [/B]
And that might mean something if Maul had Vapaad; does he?
Mace without Vapaad could take both variations of Maul - albeit with much more difficulty.
And still, Mace's powerful attributes and expert skill couldn't stop her from impaling him and scarring him up.
Again, she takes both versions of Maul with lesser and greater difficulty, but she takes them.
Originally posted by CountDooku22You DO need the will to fight, though, and Mace clearly didn't have that-- hence why he sheathed his saber during the battle.
You don't need the will to harm somebody, to defend adequately against their attacks.
Originally posted by CountDooku22If Mace went into a battle against Maul without wanting to fight, without wanting to harm, without wanting to kill, and without using Vaapad, he'd be killed in an instant(hell, Depa nearly killed him with these stips.) It is a very simple concept to grasp.
And that might mean something if Maul had Vapaad; does he?Mace without Vapaad could take both variations of Maul - albeit with much more difficulty.
And still, Mace's powerful attributes and expert skill couldn't stop her from impaling him and scarring him up.
Again, she takes both versions of Maul with lesser and greater difficulty, but she takes them.
But yeah, go ahead and ignore the blatant context of the battle. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
You DO need the will to fight, though, and Mace clearly didn't have that-- hence why he sheathed his saber during the battle.
He didn't lack the will to actively keep her from trying to kill him; and his lightsaber was activated.
His blade whirred through the air. Hers whirred faster. She advanced. And with each stroke of her blade, he could feel himself slipping into the shadows. He had to.
She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give all of himself.
Oh hey, he's using Vapaad too, what a surprise.
Originally posted by Galan007
If Mace went into a battle against Maul without wanting to fight, without wanting to harm, without wanting to kill, and without using Vaapad, he'd be killed in an instant(hell, Depa nearly killed him with these stips.) It is a very simple concept to grasp.But yeah, go ahead and ignore the blatant context of the battle. 👆
"stips"?
Luckily, in Mace's skirmish with Depa, he still wanted to physically have his blade activated, and wanted to attempt to actively block her attacks, so he wouldn't, you know, die.
And:
His blade whirred through the air. Hers whirred faster. She advanced. And with each stroke of her blade, he could feel himself slipping into the shadows. He had to. She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give all of himself.
Her power within Vapaad was too great for him to keep her from stabbing him; cutting him up.
It negated his powerful attributes and his expert skill with a lightsaber - and even a Vapaadless-Mace can block better than both versions of Maul.
But he can't simply block Depa's attacks - she's too fast and powerful for Mace, there.
Too fast and powerful when he's tapping Vapaad, as well.
And too powerful and fast for Maul, too.
Originally posted by CountDooku22
Yeah but when Vader's own attacks are deliberately watered-down, Luke's defending against them doesn't really mean anything.
Originally posted by CountDooku22😂 Now you're purposefully posting out of context statements. Here is the very next sentence after the clipped excerpt you posted:
He didn't lack the will to actively keep her from trying to kill him; and his lightsaber was activated.His blade whirred through the air. Hers whirred faster. She advanced. And with each stroke of her blade, [b]he could feel himself slipping into the shadows. He had to.
She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give all of himself.Oh hey, he's using Vapaad too, what a surprise. [/B]
Why was Mace "breaking"? Because he knew that to win meant immersing himself in Vaapad and potentially killing his old Padawan-- something he never intended to do from the start:
"I don't want to fight you. Depa, please."
"Still he did not strike back. "I will not kill you," he said. "Death is not the answer to your pain.""
And once more: immediately after that scene, Mace knew that he could easily channel his darkness and immerse himself in Vaapad-- but he CHOSE NOT TO:
"His fighting spirit wasn't destroyed. It wasn't even far away. He could feel where it had gone. He could reach out and touch it. It was waiting for him in the dark. He took one last look at the darkness that called to him-Darkness within mirroring darkness without-And turned away. He let his blade vanish. His arms dropped to his sides."
Mace never used Vaapad. He thought about it, but never did. It's right there in black and white.
Damn, the trolls in this forum are true idiots.
Originally posted by Galan007
As far as I know, Depa's best 'feat' occurred when Mace stated that her bladework surpassed his own-- a compliment that was never proven, as Mace held back enormously when they fought in Shatterpoint. I can't even recall any force feats of note from her..?Maul should take this handily.
Does anyone have Shatterpoint handy? I'd like a full quote of the fight as there seem to be discrepancies.
Lol @ Depa>Mace.
Let's see here... Depa was amped by the united fear of an entire city, and was empowered by the Dark Side, and was fully intent on killing Mace.
Mace was unamped, had broken bones, was previously stabbed, bitten, and beaten, and to top it off--He completely had no intention of harming Depa whatsoever.
I'd say Maul could fair just as well against Windu in such a circumstance... He wins.