Depa Billaba vs. Darth Maul

Originally posted by Excalibur2776
No, I mean when Luke is attacking Vader, as you said before, you don't need the will to harm somebody, to defend adequately against their attacks ... and that's what I said in the ROTJ Luke Gauntlet thread and you were against that idea ... but I guess its a double standard now.

Vader was arguably more conflicted about killing Luke, than Mace was about simply engaging Depa.

Vader's goal was ultimately to help bring Luke over the the Dark side - or destroy him if need be.

Vader had already previously experienced the overwhelming epiphany of the fact that he really loved his son - enough so that the Emperor took notice of this before Luke's strike-team landed on Endor's forest moon.

Even though Vader loved Luke, he was supposed to kill him - and this, coupled with the fact that he was already haunted by making a similar costly mistake before, crippled him mentally - thus his watered-down attacks, and inability to defend intelligently.

- With Mace, on Haruun Kal, he faced a weakened-Depa and unlike Vader, was not forced with the psychological-protocol of having to kill her - he could just simply knock her out if needed.

And he tried - and failed, because she had grown too strong, even for that:

He brought his blade back up from the pit and turn
ed his wrist on the
forehand so that his recovery stroke took her in the temple with his
lightsaber's butt. Her fingers slipped off the blade's activation plate
and it shrank back down through his body. She howled and punched his
eyesocket with her free ha
nd, but Mace got his foot wedged between them
and he shoved her away with a powerful thrust.
At the same instant both of them backflipped into the air, landing on
their feet poised in perfect mirror images, their blades whipping in
identically curving s
lashes almost too fast to see.

Having the hilt of a lightsaber slammed into her temple should have knocked her out - and it was with this method Mace could have simply and very well ended it.

But she was too strong for that.

He could have tried for another strike to her temple - but she was getting faster and stronger - and soon, even after tapping into Vapaad - Mace could not keep up with her speed and power.

So if he were quicker than her, after tapping into Vapaad, he could have knocked her out like he would have preferred - but not only was she too fast for him to lay a blow on her - she was too fast for him, period.

She had stabbed him, and cut him up badly, and he couldn't block all her attacks, try as he might.

Originally posted by Galan007
😂 Now you're purposefully posting out of context statements. Here is the very next sentence after the clipped excerpt you posted:
"He felt it: he had reached his own shatterpoint. And he was breaking."
Why was Mace "breaking"? Because he knew that to win meant immersing himself in Vaapad and potentially killing his old Padawan-- something he never intended to do from the start:
"I don't want to fight you. Depa, please."
"Still he did not strike back. "I will not kill you," he said. "Death is not the answer to your pain.""
And once more: immediately after that scene, Mace knew that he could easily channel his darkness and immerse himself in Vaapad-- but he CHOSE NOT TO:
"His fighting spirit wasn't destroyed. It wasn't even far away. He could feel where it had gone. He could reach out and touch it. It was waiting for him in the dark. [b]He took one last look at the darkness that called to him-Darkness within mirroring darkness without-And turned away. He let his blade vanish. His arms dropped to his sides."
Mace never used Vaapad. He thought about it, but never did. It's right there in black and white.
Damn, the trolls in this forum are true idiots. [/B]

You ended up only insulting yourself, and displaying the conveyance than you're in denial.

Mace was tapping into Vapaad:

And with each stroke of her blade,
he could feel himself slipping into
the shadows. He had to. She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The
only way he could survive was to give [COLOR=yellow]more of himself to Vaapad. To give
all of himself.[/COLOR]

More.

So he had tapped into Vapaad - the only question was, would he give all of himself?

So are you trolling me then; and are you the idiot, after all?

You would do well not to accidentally insult yourself.

- Now aside from that, the point I was making is that even after tapping into Vapaad - Depa was too fast and too powerful >She was too strong, too fast, too everything.< for him to even block all her attacks.

She was too fast for him to defend all her strikes; too strong to prevent him from breaking through his powerful guard, and he couldn't knock her out by violently slamming a steel rod into her temple which would result in a lot of blood and a bad hemorrhage.

He was not physically or through the Force, capable of any of that - she was too powerful for him, even when he was tapping into Vapaad.

Were he capable, he could simply block all her attacks, and knock her out.

But she was too fast for him, and too powerful - too fast for the Master of the Council to simply defend against; too powerful for him to defeat via ramming a steel rod against the vein in her head.

Even when tapping into Vapaad, he could not defend against her - and her Vapaad had indeed given her the power to match Mace's raw speed and surpass his strength.

And it is with these attributes, which were so clearly displayed and outlined, that she would dominate a TPM Maul, and narrowly defeat a TCW Maul.

Anything other than realizing this, is idiocy and denial.

That should clear up any confusion you might have.

Originally posted by CountDooku22

And it is with these attributes, which were so clearly displayed and outlined, that she would dominate a TPM Maul, and narrowly defeat a TCW Maul.

I don't really believe the difference between TPM and CW Maul is that huge tbh.

CW Maul was filled with more rage to feed off, which essentially makes him more powerful in the dark side of the force, but he was also out of action for 10+years.

All his skill, training and mastery was at it's peak at TPM time. His rage and power in the force peaked at CW time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't really believe the difference between TPM and CW Maul is that huge tbh.

CW Maul was filled with more rage to feed off, which essentially makes him more powerful in the dark side of the force, but he was also out of action for 10+years.

All his skill, training and mastery was at it's peak at TPM time. His rage and power in the force peaked at CW time.

👆 Good point.

Maul should offer Depa little challenge before he dies.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Lol @ Depa>Mace.

Don't confuse yourself.

More so Vapaad-Depa = Mace.

But not beyond Mace.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

Let's see here... Depa was amped by the united fear of an entire city, and was empowered by the Dark Side, and was fully intent on killing Mace.

he could feel himself slipping into
the shadows. He had to. She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The
only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give
all of himself.

He brought his blade back up from the pit and turned his wrist on the forehand so that his recovery stroke took her in the temple with his lightsaber's butt.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

Mace, had broken bones, was previously stabbed, bitten, and beaten,

And she was in pain.

She drew the curtain aside.
She sat on the edge of a long, padded chaise. She wore the tatters of
Jedi robes over the rough homespun of a jungle Korun. Her hair was as he
had seen at the outpost: ragged, greasy, hacked short as though she'd
used a knife to trim it without the benefit of a mirror. Her face was
every bit as thin as he had seen it: her cheekbones sharp, and her jaw going prominent. The burn scar was there, from one corner of her hardship-thinned mouth to the point of her jaw- But instead of a blindfold, she wore the strip of dirty rag tied around her forehead, concealing the Greater Mark of Illumination.

The Lesser Mark still glinted gold on the bridge of her nose, and though
her eyes were bloodshot and pain-haunted, her gaze was clear, and level,
and, after all, she was Depa Billaba.

And she was smaller and weaker than him:

He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

Mace was unamped and to top it off--He completely had no intention of harming Depa whatsoever.

Wrong.

Mace was armed - and he had the intention of smashing a steel rod into Depa's skull

He brought his blade back up from the pit and turned his wrist on the forehand so that his recovery stroke took her in the temple with his lightsaber's butt.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

I'd say Maul could fair just as well against Windu in such a circumstance... He wins.

And Maul would get dominated by Depa Billaba.

Maul loses.

Originally posted by CountDooku22
Don't confuse yourself.

More so Vapaad-Depa = Mace.

But not beyond Mace.

Mace and Depa were both tapped into Vapaad - and Mace was fully intent on smashing his lightsaber hilt into Depa's skull.

he could feel himself slipping into
the shadows. He had to. She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The
only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give
all of himself.

He brought his blade back up from the pit and turned his wrist on the forehand so that his recovery stroke took her in the temple with his lightsaber's butt.

- And Depa was emaciated, had lost tons of weight, was weakened and disheveled.

And she was in pain.

She drew the curtain aside.
She sat on the edge of a long, padded chaise. She wore the tatters of
Jedi robes over the rough homespun of a jungle Korun. Her hair was as he
had seen at the outpost: ragged, greasy, hacked short as though she'd
used a knife to trim it without the benefit of a mirror. Her face was
every bit as thin as he had seen it: her cheekbones sharp, and her jaw going prominent. The burn scar was there, from one corner of her hardship-thinned mouth to the point of her jaw- But instead of a blindfold, she wore the strip of dirty rag tied around her forehead, concealing the Greater Mark of Illumination.

The Lesser Mark still glinted gold on the bridge of her nose, and though
her eyes were bloodshot and pain-haunted, her gaze was clear, and level,
and, after all, she was Depa Billaba.

And she was smaller and weaker than him:

He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child.

Wrong.

Mace was armed - and he had the intention of smashing a steel rod into Depa's skull

He brought his blade back up from the pit and turned his wrist on the forehand so that his recovery stroke took her in the temple with his lightsaber's butt.

😆
Maul would get raped by Windu in that circumstance.

And Maul would get dominated by Depa Billaba.

Maul loses.

👆

you did homework i see.

Originally posted by Cobalt237
👆

you did homework i see.

I love Shatterpoint.

I own two copies of the book (one original print with gold-foil font).

I probably read it recreationally the most out of all my books.

If George Lucas were smart, he'd turn it into a feature film.

But that's probably expecting too much.

So how does Depa fair against other greats like Sidious, Yoda, and Dooku? I mean obviously she goes down, but how long does she last?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So how does Depa fair against other greats like Sidious, Yoda, and Dooku? I mean obviously she goes down, but how long does she last?

Not very well.

In Shatterpoint, Depa Billaba in her Vapaad-state was close to being on par with AotC Mace, as Mace knew he would have to give in to Vapaad as she did, in order to survive her in a straight-confrontation.

ROTS Dooku would probably get killed by her (perhaps), but she would be crushed by Sidious and Yoda after a moderately difficult duel.

She's AotC Mace-level - just barely.

And that's not enough to handle the likes of Yoda or Sidious.

I'd give her perhaps close to a minute against Sidious - thirty seconds against Yoda.

Depending on the terrain.

Originally posted by CountDooku22

ROTS Dooku would probably get killed by her (perhaps), but she would be crushed by Sidious and Yoda after a moderately difficult duel.

Wut? Dooku is beyond AOTC Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wut? Dooku is beyond AOTC Mace Windu.

Her Vapaad-advantage would mean she could utilize her own darkness as a weapon/fuel, and also siphon the bleed-off from Dooku's Force aura to power her attacks and stamina.

If Dooku is beyond AotC Mace, it's probably not by leaps and bounds.

I think Dooku might kill her in a straight duel - but then again, perhaps her Vapaad would give her the edge to pull through, ala Mace-Sidious.

But that's up to anyone's speculation.

Does she even have any force feats?

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Does she even have any force feats?

Mace had enough command of the Force to incapacitate the Lor Pelek Kar Vastor.

And during his fight with Depa, he didn't want to kill her - but he did want to incapacitate her if possible, as evidenced by his attempting to bash her skull with his lightsaber.

If the powerful Jedi Master had had the ability to halt Depa with the Force, he would have done so gladly.

But he knew he couldn't, which speaks to Depa probably having formidable Force attributes, along with her command of Vapaad, of course.

Originally posted by CountDooku22
Her Vapaad-advantage would mean she could utilize her own darkness as a weapon/fuel, and also siphon the bleed-off from Dooku's Force aura to power her attacks and stamina.

If Dooku is beyond AotC Mace, it's probably not by leaps and bounds.

I think Dooku might kill her in a straight duel - but then again, perhaps her Vapaad would give her the edge to pull through, ala Mace-Sidious.

But that's up to anyone's speculation.

Mace got a powerboost during Shatterpoint, and yet in Dark Rendezvous it's stated that even then Mace would barely be his equal.

Depa may be formidable, but is she really that much more powerful than Sora Bulq? And we've seen how Bulq's Vaapad lasted against Dooku's considerable force powers, and that's with Master Tholme backing him up.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Mace got a powerboost during Shatterpoint, and yet in Dark Rendezvous it's stated that even then Mace would barely be his equal.

Hmm.

I don't believe Mace got a power boost in Shatterpoint, but if you know where this occurred, please point it out to me.

True that in Dark Rendezvous they were stated to be perhaps equals - and later in the comics Mace and Dooku also tangled at one point - ending in a stalemate.

Evidently, after that Dooku didn't grow much in dueling ability, but as we all know, Mace of course, did.

So yeah, ROTS Dooku likely wouldn't be that much better in dueling than AotC Mace - probably somewhat more skilled.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Depa may be formidable, but is she really that much more powerful than Sora Bulq? And we've seen how Bulq's Vaapad lasted against Dooku's considerable force powers, and that's with Master Tholme backing him up.

I love those comics, been years since I read 'em, though.

I remember Quinlan Vos killing Bulq.

Yeah, it could probably go either way between a Vapaad-tapped Depa and Dooku.

But if Dooku used his powers, I'm sure he would overpower and destroy her.

Originally posted by CountDooku22
[B]Hmm.

I don't believe Mace got a power boost in Shatterpoint, but if you know where this occurred, please point it out to me.

True that in Dark Rendezvous they were stated to be perhaps equals - and later in the comics Mace and Dooku also tangled at one point - ending in a stalemate.

I am pretty sure it states that the events of Shatterpoint made Mace more powerful for his duel with Sidious in ROTS.

Evidently, after that Dooku didn't grow much in dueling ability, but as we all know, Mace of course, did.

So yeah, ROTS Dooku likely wouldn't be that much better in dueling than AotC Mace - probably somewhat more skilled.

I love those comics, been years since I read 'em, though.

I remember Quinlan Vos killing Bulq.

Yeah, it could probably go either way between a Vapaad-tapped Depa and Dooku.

But if Dooku used his powers, I'm sure he would overpower and destroy her.

Bulq lost due to overconfidence imo. I don't think it could go either way. I am positive Dooku would down Depa in raw sabers and in the force. Unlike Mace, Dooku will be going for the kill.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am pretty sure it states that the events of Shatterpoint made Mace more powerful for his duel with Sidious in ROTS.

Oh, of course.

I thought you were implying something else. 😛

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

He became a more powerful Sith Lord.
ROTS Dooku~ROTS Windu>AOTC Windu>Depa

I'm thinking not so much, since a saber monkey like Anakin took him out.

ROTS Dooku definitely isn't on par with ROTS Mace, in most respects, at least where his Vapaad and Shatterpoint are concerned.

And while Depa is barely on par with AotC Mace, Vapaad might give her an edge against a duel with Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

More skilled yes.

Surely somewhat more skilled. Even though later Anakin dropped him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Bulq lost due to overconfidence imo. I don't think it could go either way. I am positive Dooku would down Depa in raw sabers and in the force. Unlike Mace, Dooku will be going for the kill.

Vapaad-tapped Mace wasn't able to actively block all of her attacks, and he was legitimately trying to block them - so I would wonder if Dooku could, or if in her Vapaad-enhanced rage, she would cut him down.

But I agree in raw Force attacks Dooku could take her down.

Dooku IS on par with RotS Mace.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Dooku IS on par with RotS Mace.

If you can prove that Anakin could beat Mace -

And that Dooku could beat Sidious..

Then I would agree with you.

Originally posted by CountDooku22

I'm thinking not so much, since a saber monkey like Anakin took him out.

Saber monkey? Really?

Originally posted by CountDooku22
If you can prove that Anakin could beat Mace -

Why should he prove that when there's no proof Mace could beat Skywalker?

We have 2 comparisons of them. One by the stunt co-ordinator of ROTS who says they are in the same league. And second the alternate ending of the ROTS video game which has Skywalker beating Mace.

I'm not saying either proves Skywalker to be better, but it certainly seems like they are on a similar level.

Anyway you seem to be ignoring that Dooku was already tiring from fighting 2 combatants when Skywalker beat him.

You think Mace could take Skywalker and Kenobi together?

Originally posted by CountDooku22
And that Dooku could beat Sidious..

Well he led his own against Yoda.

But yeah he'd obviously lose a majority to Sidious otherwise he wouldn't be the apprentice. But that doesn't mean he's not even capable of beating him in a fencing match.

And A>B>C doesn't always work. Certainly didn't in ROTS.

Originally posted by CountDooku22
Then I would agree with you.

For a guy who calls himself CountDooku22, you don't seem to hold him in high regard.