Originally posted by CountDooku22
AotC Mace.Not ROTS Mace. That's the thing.
Actually CW Mace. And I don't see the difference between Mid-Late CW Mace and ROTS Mace.
Originally posted by CountDooku22
That's why Anakin can't defeat Mace,
Who says Anakin can't beat Mace?
You keep saying that like it's happened or something.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually CW Mace. And I don't see the difference between Mid-Late CW Mace and ROTS Mace.
They key to understanding the crucial element here, is understanding that Dooku couldn't defeat Sidious and Mace could.
An aspect that was painfully learned slowly over a number of years, for all star wars fans to come to terms with.
It's not a complicated concept: Mace beat Sidious; Dooku couldn't.
Dooku and Windu were on par during the war - and then at some point, Mace surpassed him, as Revenge of the Sith clearly proves, when Anakin, who is not a peer to Sidious, slayed Dooku.
And Mace, succeeded in defeating Anakin's superior.
Mathimatics/logic.
^
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Who says Anakin can't beat Mace?You keep saying that like it's happened or something.
Originally posted by CountDooku22
They key to understanding the crucial element here, is understanding that Dooku couldn't defeat Sidious and Mace could.
Originally posted by CountDooku22
Dooku and Windu were on par during the war - and then at some point, Mace surpassed him, as Revenge of the Sith clearly proves, when Anakin, who is not a peer to Sidious, slayed Dooku.
Originally posted by CountDooku22
AotC Mace.Not ROTS Mace. That's the thing.
That's why Anakin can't defeat Mace, and Dooku can't defeat Sidious.
Wrong. Dark Rendezvous takes place some six months before ROTS in the waning days of the Clone Wars. Mace had no powerboost between then and ROTS. ROTS Dooku = Mace Windu
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Mace defeated Sideous because of Vapaad's special abilities against the darkside.While that implies that Mace has an easier time fighting dark siders than Dooku does, it also means that his fight with Sideous isn't indicative of his skill/dueling ability relative to the count.
That's mere speculation.
The novel made Mace's considerable skill and experience clear, along with his Vapaad techniques.
And as long as the Count is a Dark Sider, Mace will still obviously win, making any other attempts at a point, moot.
Originally posted by CountDooku22
They key to understanding the crucial element here, is understanding that Dooku couldn't defeat Sidious and Mace could.An aspect that was painfully learned slowly over a number of years, for all star wars fans to come to terms with.
It's not a complicated concept: Mace beat Sidious; Dooku couldn't.
Dooku and Windu were on par during the war - and then at some point, Mace surpassed him, as Revenge of the Sith clearly proves, when Anakin, who is not a peer to Sidious, slayed Dooku.
And Mace, succeeded in defeating Anakin's superior.
Mathimatics/logic.
You are missing critical points here.
1. Sidious vs. Dooku is not a 100/100 battle in Sidious' favor. He cannot curbstomp Mace like you are implying.
2. Anakin is a peer to Sidious in raw sabers. In fact Anakin is a peer to just about everyone by the time his power peaks in ROTS.
3. Star Wars battles are not so black and white as you paint them to be. Mace vs. Sidious had all the cards in Mace's favor. You put that battle in the Grand Convocation Chamber and Windu goes down hard.
4. The "something" that happened to boost Mace's power was on Harruun Kal; the events of Shatterpoint. Dark Rendezvous takes place after that.
You need to stop operating under the delusion that because Windu lost to Skywalker he isn't top tier. Skywalker is top tier, he's the finest Djem So user Dooku has ever seen, one of the finest blademasters in the Jedi Order.
Mace Windu even says in the ROTS novel that he is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, that's saying something with
Master most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known Yoda is sitting right next to him as he says this in the Council Chambers.
Originally posted by CountDooku22
That's mere speculation.The novel made Mace's considerable skill and experience clear, along with his Vapaad techniques.
And as long as the Count is a Dark Sider, Mace will still obviously win, making any other attempts at a point, moot.
The novel also makes it clear that Sidious 'gives out' right as Mace is about to eat his own lightsaber. Don't you find it odd that Sidious springs right back to life moments after being 'too weak to continue.'
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Yeah, in a saber fight Mace could defeat Sidious. When the force is involved? Nope.
At a certain point in the duel, Sidious grew fearful of Mace, and knew the duel was going downhill.
If he thought he could turn the tide with an offensive Force technique, he would have used one to survive.
He did not and tried instead to in vain, guard against Mace's strikes, and lost.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
How old is Mace as of RotS? In his 50's? He doesn't just gain power during RotS, it just doesn't happen. Might as well say Dooku gained power.
I can see you're confused.
Mace would have been on par with Dooku during the war, and then at some point, surpassed him.
The part where Anakin mutilates Dooku in Revenge of the Sith debunks your quickly erected and not-thought-out idea of Dooku magically having as much power as Mace.
Dooku was aware that he couldn't defeat Sidious, but Mace was able, making him more skilled and faster, as the novel indicates.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wrong. Dark Rendezvous takes place some six months before ROTS in the waning days of the Clone Wars. Mace had no powerboost between then and ROTS. ROTS Dooku = Mace Windu
He obviously did surpass him if he could defeat Sidious and Dooku could not.
ROTS Dooku most certainly does not = ROTS Mace.
Originally posted by CountDooku22
He obviously did surpass him if he could defeat Sidious and Dooku could not.ROTS Dooku most certainly does not = ROTS Mace.
Prove it. Or did you miss the fact that because Anakin defeated Darth Tyranus, Mace Windu says he may be the most powerful Jedi in the order. Please tell me the quote you have that proves this. Because Dooku losing to Anakin is no proof, and Mace defeating Sidious in a saber duel also isn't proof.
It's BS A>B>C logic.
''Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.''
''The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.''
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You are missing critical points here.
You don't have any points.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
1. Sidious vs. Dooku is not a 100/100 battle in Sidious' favor. He cannot curbstomp Mace like you are implying.
I'm not implying either of them can curbstomp Mace.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
2. Anakin is a peer to Sidious in raw sabers. In fact Anakin is a peer to just about everyone by the time his power peaks in ROTS.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin before he was injured could potentially become twice as powerful as Sidious. As of RotS though, Sidious would kick Ani's ass.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I doubt he would kick his ass in a pure Saber duel. But obviously his force powers would likely prove too much for Skywalker.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No, he would kick his ass in a saber duel as of RotS...
Originally posted by Nephthys You think Anakin could do what Sidious did? You think Anakin is faster than Mace Windu?Anakin beat Dooku through sheer strength. That obviously won't work on Sidious. Besides which, Windu > Dooku.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
3. Star Wars battles are not so black and white as you paint them to be. Mace vs. Sidious had all the cards in Mace's favor. You put that battle in the Grand Convocation Chamber and Windu goes down hard.
Speculation.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
4. The "something" that happened to boost Mace's power was on Harruun Kal; the events of Shatterpoint. Dark Rendezvous takes place after that.
Speculation.
Haruun Kal wasn't the only battle he was involved in.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You need to stop operating under the delusion that because Windu lost to Skywalker he isn't top tier.
If Windu lost to Anakin, then Sidious lost to Vader. 😛
But yeah, Anakin's not quite on Mace's level.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Mace Windu even says in the ROTS novel that he is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, that's saying something with
Master most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known Yoda is sitting right next to him as he says this in the Council Chambers.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin before he was injured could potentially become twice as powerful as Sidious. As of RotS though, Sidious would kick Ani's ass.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The novel also makes it clear that Sidious 'gives out' right as Mace is about to eat his own lightsaber. Don't you find it odd that Sidious springs right back to life moments after being 'too weak to continue.'
Don't you find it odd that Sidious yells, "Unlimited power!" afterwards.
Am I take it that you don't know what he meant by that? 😉
Originally posted by CountDooku22
You don't have any points.I'm not implying either of them can curbstomp Mace.
Speculation.
Speculation.
Haruun Kal wasn't the only battle he was involved in.
If Windu lost to Anakin, then Sidious lost to Vader. 😛
But yeah, Anakin's not quite on Mace's level.
Also all of your posts are entirely based on interpretation.
You have nothing that suggests Mace got more powerful in the six months between Dark Rendezvous and ROTS. Nothing. And before you say 'derp but Mace beat Sidious he haz 2 have a power boost'
NOTHING suggests that.
Mace saying Anakin may be more powerful than himself after he defeated Dooku supports this. Dooku's bladeswork is on par with the cream of the crop, it is cream of the crop.
He is one of the wisest and most powerful Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year history and an even more powerful Sith Lord- ROTS novel.
Originally posted by CountDooku22
Don't you find it odd that Sidious yells, "Unlimited power!" afterwards.Am I take it that you don't know what he meant by that? 😉
The point is--If Mace was at 100% health, and tapping into Vaapad, he would completely obliterate Depa with complete and total ease.
In their fight, he was stabbed, bitten, bones broken, ligaments torn, and he still wasn't even going all-out in their battle, nor was he tapping into Vaapad. And on top of this, he wasn't attempting to hurt her.
I don't see why Depa would own Maul.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove it.
I already have.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Or did you miss the fact that because Anakin defeated Darth Tyranus, Mace Windu says he may be the most powerful Jedi in the order.
Which is why he ended up on a lava bank several hours later.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Please tell me the quote you have that proves this. Because Dooku losing to Anakin is no proof, and Mace defeating Sidious in a saber duel also isn't proof.
Actually, it is.
If Dooku lost to Anakin, then he can't defeat Sidious, just as he always knew.
And if Mace can defeat Sidious, that means he can logically defeat Dooku, who is weaker than Sidious.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's BS A>B>C logic.
It's more a matter of math than anything.
And you don't seem to be very good at math.