Originally posted by Zett
And I believe, that Mace is overrated one. A lot of people believe, that he's top1 swordmaster of his times. But he is not. Yoda is.So it looks like, they (I mean Dooku / Mace / Sidious) are in the same league, along with Yoda and Anakin. But Yoda is a bit better.
Being slightly worse than Yoda is debatable and even so, it hardly warrants calling Mace overrated.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yeah...because MagnaGuards~two of the finest blademasters the order has ever produced.
You'd be right, apparently.
Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that
generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes
that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated
heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from
experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were
certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not ObiWan
who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He
was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill
and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.
You can pretend all you like that Dooku is magically capable of taking on Obi-Wan and Mace combined, but the Count fled from Mace on Boz Pity. Unless he uses the Force to squash Obi-Wan with impunity, they'd wreck him.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You'd be right, apparently.[b]Three MagnaGuards,
each with a double-ended weapon that
generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes
that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated
heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from
experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were
certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not ObiWan
who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He
was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill
and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.You can pretend all you like that Dooku is magically capable of taking on Obi-Wan and Mace combined, but the Count fled from Mace on Boz Pity. Unless he uses the Force to squash Obi-Wan with impunity, they'd wreck him. [/B]
Outdated quote. Asoka Tano was able to defeat 3 MagnaGuards in TCW movie. Also Shaak Ti was able to duel with dozens simultaneously.
I am not saying that. All I am saying is I'd rather have Obi-Wan backing me up against Dooku, than MagnaGuards backing me up against Windu.
Also fled against Windu at Boz Pity? Hardly. The Count could have killed him at Boz Pity when those MagnaGuards grabbed him. Try again.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Outdated quote. Asoka Tano was able to defeat 3 MagnaGuards in TCW movie. Also Shaak Ti was able to duel with dozens simultaneously.
This [erroneously] assumes all MagnaGuards are identical in skill.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not saying that. All I am saying is I'd rather have Obi-Wan backing me up against Dooku, than MagnaGuards backing me up against Windu.
That's nice.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also fled against Windu at Boz Pity? Hardly. The Count could have killed him at Boz Pity when those MagnaGuards grabbed him. Try again.
So half a dozen MagnaGuards are of no consequence when it suits your argument, but two would have let Dooku kill Mace on Boz Pity?
Nah.
Dooku instructed the droids to leave the Jedi to him but fled after sparring with Mace. You can make as many backhanded implications about Dooku's superiority all you like, but the bottom line is that he hauled ass rather than continue the fight. They're equals.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
^ Well, I agree with the above.Yoda and Sidiosu are at the absolute top.
Windu is not better saber duelist than Yoda, and certainly about equal to Dooku.
What I meant rather is that Windu's Force-power's are a bit underrated, and that Dooku, in general, is a bit underrated too.
Ah, so I misunderstand You. Sorry ^^
@The_Tempest
Dooku had no time to deal with Mace. And this fight was a huge risk, that he cannot allow himself.
Sources like DR or the Sourcebook would imply Dooku is Maces superior by some level. Dooku shows absolutely no fear when confronting Windu in AOTC. Dooku was the victor of their spars before he turned to the dark side. Dooku is a master of TK. Mace is deadly but this is the guy who went blade to blade with Yoda.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Well, Mace not only went blade-to-blade with Sidious, but actually beat him in that part of the fight....
He had Vaapad amp from a guy who was the dark side incarnate. Dooku would not give half the boost Mace got fors Sid. And Mace won cause of shatter point and the window, he was stale mating at best in sabers.
Originally posted by Vensai
He had Vaapad amp from a guy who was the dark side incarnate. Dooku would not give half the boost Mace got fors Sid. And Mace won cause of shatter point and the window, he was stale mating at best in sabers.
That’s not the case with Mace and Dooku, who are about equal in that regard. If there is a disparity between them giving an edge to the Count, it's not as big as it's with Sidious. And this gap will be bridged by Vaapad, giving Mace the boost.
Saber-wise, same thing. They are virtually equal. And I must say I take Mace stalemating Sidious in sabers over Dooku lasting only as long against Yoda in sabers.
Bottom line is this: they’re equals.
If anything, I'd give Mace a slight majority in all-out, because he has not only his own power at disposal, but he will feed off Dooku’s dark energy via Vaapad.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Yeah, but he does not need to get the same amp…. Normally Sidious is beyond either Mace or Dooku in Force-power.That’s not the case with Mace and Dooku, who are about equal in that regard. If there is a disparity between them giving an edge to the Count, it's not as big as it's with Sidious. And this gap will be bridged by Vaapad, giving Mace the boost.
Saber-wise, same thing. They are virtually equal. And I must say I take Mace stalemating Sidious in sabers over Dooku lasting only as long against Yoda in sabers.
Bottom line is this: they’re equals.
If anything, I'd give Mace a slight majority in all-out, because he has not only his own power at disposal, but he will feed off Dooku’s dark energy via Vaapad.
Vaapads a tricky issue because it's so vaguely defined. And Dookus feat is impressive considering Sidious was disarmed by Yoda in a similar period of time. The one victory Mace had over Dooku was when Kenobi was backing him up.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This [erroneously] assumes all MagnaGuards are identical in skill.
They are not, the ones with cloaks have more skill. It does not however counter the fact that against the great swordbeings of the Jedi, MagnaGuards go down hard. They've been dehyped considerably in canon.
That's nice.
So half a dozen MagnaGuards are of no consequence when it suits your argument, but two would have let Dooku kill Mace on Boz Pity?
Nah.
Red herring. MagnaGuards came from nowhere to ambush Mace. They were fully aware of them in the other scenario.
Dooku instructed the droids to leave the Jedi to him but fled after sparring with Mace. You can make as many backhanded implications about Dooku's superiority all you like, but the bottom line is that he hauled ass rather than continue the fight. They're equals.
Uhhh, that's because the Republic was winning the battle, their top commander was incapacitated, and Ventress was running rampant. It doesn't take a tactical genius to realize the situation was unassailable and he would be facing a lot more than just Windu in minutes.
I believe they are equals as well.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
They are not, the ones with cloaks have more skill. It does not however counter the fact that against the great swordbeings of the Jedi, MagnaGuards go down hard. They've been dehyped considerably in canon.
Ahsoka's manhandling of MagnaGuards on Tatooine and Shaak Ti's exaggerated performance against another contingent does not preclude that the three that threatened Obi-Wan on Utapau were beyond his ability to defeat naturally or that the MagnaGuards that aided Dooku against Obi-Wan and Mace were of potentially similar caliber.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Would you disagree.
It would depend on which MagnaGuards, I suppose.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Red herring. MagnaGuards came from nowhere to ambush Mace. They were fully aware of them in the other scenario.
The bottom line is that you haven't the means to conclusively determine their level of skill. They could have been fodder; they might have been elite.
I'm not claiming one way or another, but I am reminding all parties involved that Dooku did not take Obi-Wan and Mace on alone.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uhhh, that's because the Republic was winning the battle, their top commander was incapacitated, and Ventress was running rampant. It doesn't take a tactical genius to realize the situation was unassailable and he would be facing a lot more than just Windu in minutes.
That's nice. But Dooku was more than aware of the Republic's invasion and the Jedi's presence before confronting Mace and instructed his droids to leave the Jedi to him. He knew what he was getting into; the fact that he fled is an indicator that he was not prepared, under the circumstances, to take on someone of Mace's caliber.
Again, you can spout backhanded implications ad infinitum and pretend Dooku would have done the same thing had any Tom, Dick, or Jedi squared off with him, but it's simply not the case.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I believe they are equals as well.
Then you probably shouldn't try to imply otherwise?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He wouldn't. Judging from the yellow impact wave, the MagnaGuards were blown back by Mace's leap and Dooku was steadying himself.
True. Not sure if that establishes Mace or Dooku above one another. They can lock blades with each other fairly evenly. Force might go either way though.