Originally posted by Vensai
Why was he blowing back the Magnaguards?
A sort of 'get out of the way droids' move is the way I interpreted it.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ahsoka's manhandling of MagnaGuards on Tatooine and Shaak Ti's exaggerated performance against another contingent does not preclude that the three that threatened Obi-Wan on Utapau were beyond his ability to defeat naturally or that the MagnaGuards that aided Dooku against Obi-Wan and Mace were of potentially similar caliber.
Yes it does. No source implies the gap between MagnaGuards is to the degree that 3 could defeat one swordbeing and yet dozens cannot defeat another. Shaak Ti's feat wasn't exaggerated.
It would depend on which MagnaGuards, I suppose.
The bottom line is that you haven't the means to conclusively determine their level of skill. They could have been fodder; they might have been elite.
I've never seen evidence aside from that single quote that 3 MagnaGuards could defeat Kenobi. Elite or no, Kenobi fended off Savage and Maul, to suggest he'd have trouble with any 3 droids is absurd.
I'm not claiming one way or another, but I am reminding all parties involved that Dooku did not take Obi-Wan and Mace on alone.
I am well aware.
That's nice. But Dooku was more than aware of the Republic's invasion and the Jedi's presence before confronting Mace and instructed his droids to leave the Jedi to him. He knew what he was getting into; the fact that he fled is an indicator that he was not prepared, under the circumstances, to take on someone of Mace's caliber.
Dooku is well aware of Mace's caliber. The point is that he had the chance to gore Mace the moment the MagnaGuards detained him. He elected to flee in the interest of time not the interest of he might die if he continued.
Again, you can spout backhanded implications ad infinitum and pretend Dooku would have done the same thing had any Tom, Dick, or Jedi squared off with him, but it's simply not the case.
Then you probably shouldn't try to imply otherwise?
From the start I've stated Mace and Dooku are equals, but if one has the SLIGHT advantage it's the Count. Reading comprehension ftw.
It was perfectly clear in the Clone Wars Republic Commandos fight that Dooku was fighting Mace and Obi-Wan alone by the end of the fight after the gameplay.
The magnaguards were all destroyed by that point and we at least see one FL blast from Dooku at the Jedi which is deflected before Dooku escapes.
Before the gameplay we actually see Dooku leap away and basically sit back watching Mace and Kenobi fight the magnaguards.
The gameplay itself seems to suggest that Dooku joined in late in the fight and that he was still fighting after all the magnaguards were wiped out.
And I agree with MY that Dooku had a clear opportunity in Obsession to gain an advantage over Mace when the magnaguards held him.
Another important factor in that fight was the combatants mentalities which is made clear from the dialogue and other sources. Mace was perfectly willing by this point to give his life to take down Dooku. Dooku didn't really want to risk his life. That has to be considered before saying "LOL Mace won because Dooku left."
But as far as the actual fight went they were shown to be on Par.
It was stated that Dooku has bested Mace in sparring-- although this most likely occurred when they were both Jedi/good.
However, the fact that Dooku turned to the dark side essentially means that Mace would be free to utilize 'true' Vaapad against him-- and since 'true' Vaapad was sufficient to "overpower" Palpatine(per Lucas himself), then Mace should certainly be able to overpower Dooku just the same(assuming he doesn't hold anything back, obviously.)
I'm unclear why people keep bringing up sparring. Sparring isn't real life fighting in a life or death situation. It's SPARRING for God's sake. Furthermore, people keep leaving out the fact tha Dooku was much older than Mace when they "sparred" and thus more powerful and experienced than Mace then. THAT Mace is a far far cry from the prime Mace we see in Sids. They are two totally different beasts. That is like saying GSP Lost to Hughes pre prime.. thus now Hughes is still better... WTF... No.. GSP has increased his skills and power just like Mace did.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is a non fight... Mace wins.. and wins convincingly. Some of you people just need to accept the facts.
Lol, we're not the ones who need to accept the facts. Every canon source refutes what you've been shoving down our throats except your interpretation of ONE DUEL.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm unclear why people keep bringing up sparring. Sparring isn't real life fighting in a life or death situation. It's SPARRING for God's sake. Furthermore, people keep leaving out the fact tha Dooku was much older than Mace when they "sparred" and thus more powerful and experienced than Mace then. THAT Mace is a far far cry from the prime Mace we see in Sids. They are two totally different beasts. That is like saying GSP Lost to Hughes pre prime.. thus now Hughes is still better... WTF... No.. GSP has increased his skills and power just like Mace did.
It does matter because Mace NEVER was able to best Dooku in sparring, where as Dooku was able to best him. Yoda too. If it wasn't significant it wouldn't have been sourced in several separate entity. And DR wouldn't have referenced that either.
If you got Mace Windu's erect BAMF engraved penis out of your mouth for five seconds you'd realize this.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm unclear why people keep bringing up sparring. Sparring isn't real life fighting in a life or death situation. It's SPARRING for God's sake. Furthermore, people keep leaving out the fact tha Dooku was much older than Mace when they "sparred" and thus more powerful and experienced than Mace then. THAT Mace is a far far cry from the prime Mace we see in Sids. They are two totally different beasts. That is like saying GSP Lost to Hughes pre prime.. thus now Hughes is still better... WTF... No.. GSP has increased his skills and power just like Mace did.
First of all Jedi Mom isn't referring to sparring. He's referring to a quote from Dark Rendezvous set probably Mid CW in the revamp, late CW originally.
Second sparring in this context obviously means something considering Yoda and Dooku were the only ones able to best Mace. If it meant nothing then surely there would be many people able to best him.
Third they have had ACTUAL fights in the clone wars. And Mace never seemed superior.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol, we're not the ones who need to accept the facts. Every canon source refutes what you've been shoving down our throats except your interpretation of [B]ONE DUEL.It does matter because Mace NEVER was able to best Dooku in sparring, where as Dooku was able to best him. Yoda too. If it wasn't significant it wouldn't have been sourced in several separate entity. And DR wouldn't have referenced that either.
If you got Mace Windu's erect BAMF engraved penis out of your mouth for five seconds you'd realize this. [/B]
Tell me then.. WHEN did they spar?
Next, are you claiming that the Mace Dooku sparred with was just as powerful and experienced as the one Sids fought? Is that your claim? We all know he's not the same and a different beast.. JUST LIKE.. we all know Dooku was older and more experienced than Mace back then. Thus, who cares abotu THAT Mace back in the day.. this is a PRIME PEAK MACE in this fight. Do you get the difference? To say nothing of the fact that it was SPARRING. You do know the difference between sparring and a real life and death fight right? Do you think they are the same?
ALl of the above just destroys the argument for Dooku being superior to ROTS Mace... but that isn't even needed. All we need to do is say Mace will go into Vaapad mode... Dooku has darkside energies in him.. Mace will exploit that and beat Dooku.. just like he did Dooku's superior Sids. THAT is all we need to show how easy it would be. The first paragraph just desroys the flimsy proof you have.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERHuh? Which quote from DR.. talks about Dooku being Mace's superior.. Please post this quote. Second, the sparring sessions brought up countless times IS when Mace wasn't as powerful period. That is not applicable to THIS mace yet it has been continually brought up.
First of all Jedi Mom isn't referring to sparring. He's referring to a quote from Dark Rendezvous set probably Mid CW in the revamp, late CW originally.Second sparring in this context obviously means something considering Yoda and Dooku were the only ones able to best Mace. If it meant nothing then surely there would be many people able to best him.
Third they have had ACTUAL fights in the clone wars. And Mace never seemed superior.
Lastly, sparring means about **** all when it comes to a real life fight. Sure, it can be a decent barometer to somebody's skills and abilities, but it's not a real life fight. To be silly DP.. Fisto isn't going to beat Mace just beause it's sparring.. that is like saying a HS footballl team will beat Greenbay in a practice game. No, just because it's practice doesn't mean you can totally jump gaps of superiority. Yet, if you put the Raiders in there.. a real pro team.. they could beat GB.. but as we know... that is JUST PRACTICE. huge difference between practice and real games and that is undisputable.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Huh? Which quote from DR.. talks about Dooku being Mace's superior.. Please post this quote. Second, the sparring sessions brought up countless times IS when Mace wasn't as powerful period. That is not applicable to THIS mace yet it has been continually brought up.Lastly, sparring means about **** all when it comes to a real life fight. Sure, it can be a decent barometer to somebody's skills and abilities, but it's not a real life fight. To be silly DP.. Fisto isn't going to beat Mace just beause it's sparring.. that is like saying a HS footballl team will beat Greenbay in a practice game. No, just because it's practice doesn't mean you can totally jump gaps of superiority. Yet, if you put the Raiders in there.. a real pro team.. they could beat GB.. but as we know... that is JUST PRACTICE. huge difference between practice and real games and that is undisputable.
Anyone who believes sparring is a decent indicator of real world combat is either a complete idiot, or has absolutely ZERO ***king knowledge of combat sports. And one must consider the timeline at which this "sparring" contest likely took place. Once again... SPARRING DOES NOT EQUAL REAL WORLD COMBAT! It's usually not even close.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Tell me then.. WHEN did they spar?Next, are you claiming that the Mace Dooku sparred with was just as powerful and experienced as the one Sids fought? Is that your claim? We all know he's not the same and a different beast.. JUST LIKE.. we all know Dooku was older and more experienced than Mace back then. Thus, who cares abotu THAT Mace back in the day.. this is a PRIME PEAK MACE in this fight. Do you get the difference? To say nothing of the fact that it was SPARRING. You do know the difference between sparring and a real life and death fight right? Do you think they are the same?
ALl of the above just destroys the argument for Dooku being superior to ROTS Mace... but that isn't even needed. All we need to do is say Mace will go into Vaapad mode... Dooku has darkside energies in him.. Mace will exploit that and beat Dooku.. just like he did Dooku's superior Sids. THAT is all we need to show how easy it would be. The first paragraph just desroys the flimsy proof you have.
We all know Mace got a powerboost since Dooku and him last sparred. Here's what you don't get, Dooku got an even larger powerup.
AND
He became a master of Dun Moch, something that was surprisingly absent from Sidious' duel with Mace. Dun Moch is likely one of the greatest counters to Vaapad.
''In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.''
Note it says battle, not sparring.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Huh? Which quote from DR.. talks about Dooku being Mace's superior.. Please post this quote. Second, the sparring sessions brought up countless times IS when Mace wasn't as powerful period. That is not applicable to THIS mace yet it has been continually brought up.
It doesn't say superior but it clearly suggests parity. With an edge to Dooku if anyone given the wording.
"Of all the other Jedi perhaps only Mace Windu would be his equal on neutral ground.."
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Second, the sparring sessions brought up countless times IS when Mace wasn't as powerful period. That is not applicable to THIS mace yet it has been continually brought up.
There's little evidence he substantially grew in power since he had already developed Vapaad and was already head of the Council. Funny thing is it's actually Dooku who been outright stated to be more powerful than before since becoming a Sith Lord.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Lastly, sparring means about **** all when it comes to a real life fight. Sure, it can be a decent barometer to somebody's skills and abilities, but it's not a real life fight. To be silly DP.. Fisto isn't going to beat Mace just beause it's sparring.. that is like saying a HS footballl team will beat Greenbay in a practice game. No, just because it's practice doesn't mean you can totally jump gaps of superiority. Yet, if you put the Raiders in there.. a real pro team.. they could beat GB.. but as we know... that is JUST PRACTICE. huge difference between practice and real games and that is undisputable.
But it does give some indication of combat prowess. Like you said yourself Fisto won't be beating Mace in a sparring session. In fact no one ever has except Yoda and Dooku.
If that was the only evidence then your point would be completely valid. But the fact is there's a few evidences that suggest either parity between the 2 or actually Dooku's superiority.